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Period Targets --- Interesting Note

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  • Siegfried
    I just realized, and found it interesting ... That this started as a discussion of Why aren t we using REALLY period targets ... and not what we currently do
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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      I just realized, and found it interesting ...

      That this started as a discussion of 'Why aren't we using REALLY
      period targets ... and not what we currently do use ... as even the
      Period IKAC face isn't really period'

      And has turned into:

      Let's mass produce the period IKAC face, and get everyone using them alot.

      Just pointing that out.

      Siegfried


      --
      _________________________________________________________________________
      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
    • Siegfried
      Actually, replying to myself because of another note ... Again, the discussion started with lets have more period targets . It s been shown from
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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        Actually, replying to myself because of another note ...

        Again, the discussion started with 'lets have more period targets'.

        It's been shown from illustrations, that the closest we can come to a
        'period concentric ring target' in period, is in fact a concentric
        ring target ... either with 2 rings (outer/inner), or perhaps a '3rd'
        of the peg in the middle.

        Illustrations show these directly on a butt.

        (There are also illustrations of Square targets on butts)

        Yet the current discussions of printing these targets, is not to just
        print a couple of concentric circles to match the illustrations ...
        but instead to illuminate the borders to make them 'look fancy'

        That is not, from my research, in period practice ... yet we are going
        down the path to do that, calling it 'period'.

        Siegfried


        On 6/26/07, Siegfried <siegfriedfaust@...> wrote:
        > I just realized, and found it interesting ...
        >
        > That this started as a discussion of 'Why aren't we using REALLY
        > period targets ... and not what we currently do use ... as even the
        > Period IKAC face isn't really period'
        >
        > And has turned into:
        >
        > Let's mass produce the period IKAC face, and get everyone using them alot.
        >
        > Just pointing that out.
        >
        > Siegfried
        >
        >
        > --
        > _________________________________________________________________________
        > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
        > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
        > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
        > http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
        >


        --
        _________________________________________________________________________
        THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
        Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
        Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
        http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
      • Lord Caedmon Wilson
        ... As much as people want a period target, it costs money and time to make a period target. The less durable the target, the more cost. So, it is always
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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          > That is not, from my research, in period practice ... yet we are going
          > down the path to do that, calling it 'period'.

          As much as people want a period target, it costs money and time to
          make a period target. The less durable the target, the more cost.
          So, it is always going to come back to a big piece of paper.

          During the Wreath Challenge a few years ago, I loved shooting at the
          actual wreath. When I ran archery at Border Raids, I refused to bring
          out the 5-color FITA targets, prefering to see a range filled with
          burlap-covered target butts with wreaths and wands on them. I did
          receive some complaints.

          -Caedmon
        • John edgerton
          Lets try to put some numbers to the discussion and set up a poll see what the support for the idea is on this group. The following is not the poll, just ideas
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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            Lets try to put some numbers to the discussion and set up a poll see
            what the support for the idea is on this group.

            The following is not the poll, just ideas for discussion on how to
            set up the poll .

            First we would need to agree on how to word the question or
            questions. I think responses of "1) strongly agree 2) somewhat
            agree 3) do not care 4) somewhat disagree 5) strongly disagree"
            might give good indication.

            Perhaps a series of questions.

            1) Our archery ranges would look more period if modern style target
            faces were not used.

            2) The five color FITA face used for Royal Rounds should be replaced
            by a more period looking face.

            3) The five color FITA face used for the Open division of the IKAC
            should be replaced by a more period looking face.

            4) The five color FITA face should not be replaced for RRs and
            IKACs, but a new general use period style face should be created.

            5) etc., etc.

            Then some questions as to what a new period face should look like.


            As to targets that "Look fancy" paintings of birds and arms of other
            cities, etc were used in period as targets. See "Historical Targets"
            by Braun. It is not necessary to illuminate the border wreath on the
            target. But, why not? It would help to show that the archery
            community is interested in having all of our gear look good. I will
            admit that I have not seen examples of two ring or two ring with peg
            targets with decorated borders or wreaths with illuminations in the
            leaves. But, illuminations within leaves and vines in manuscripts
            were common.

            Jon




            On Jun 26, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Siegfried wrote:

            > Actually, replying to myself because of another note ...
            >
            > Again, the discussion started with 'lets have more period targets'.
            >
            > It's been shown from illustrations, that the closest we can come to a
            > 'period concentric ring target' in period, is in fact a concentric
            > ring target ... either with 2 rings (outer/inner), or perhaps a '3rd'
            > of the peg in the middle.
            >
            > Illustrations show these directly on a butt.
            >
            > (There are also illustrations of Square targets on butts)
            >
            > Yet the current discussions of printing these targets, is not to just
            > print a couple of concentric circles to match the illustrations ...
            > but instead to illuminate the borders to make them 'look fancy'
            >
            > That is not, from my research, in period practice ... yet we are going
            > down the path to do that, calling it 'period'.
            >
            > Siegfried
            >
            > On 6/26/07, Siegfried <siegfriedfaust@...> wrote:
            > > I just realized, and found it interesting ...
            > >
            > > That this started as a discussion of 'Why aren't we using REALLY
            > > period targets ... and not what we currently do use ... as even the
            > > Period IKAC face isn't really period'
            > >
            > > And has turned into:
            > >
            > > Let's mass produce the period IKAC face, and get everyone using
            > them alot.
            > >
            > > Just pointing that out.
            > >
            > > Siegfried
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > __________________________________________________________
            > > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
            > > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
            > > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
            > > http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
            > >
            >
            > --
            > __________________________________________________________
            > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
            > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
            > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
            > http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Richard Yeager
            This has been an interesting process (I think). None of my comments are intended to discount the efforts or intentions of anyone involved. I know that
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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              This has been an interesting process (I think). None of my comments are intended to discount the efforts or intentions of anyone involved. I know that everyone is doing their part to improve target archery in the SCA.

              That said, it seems like we are creating a new SCAism (as someone pointed out several days ago). We are replacing a non-period target and non-period scoring rules with another non-period target with non-period scoring rules and calling the latter "period". We are further creating new "period" targets that deviate from the previous non-period targets we called "period" (I am skipping the several days where we argued about whether this prayer book or that woodcut illustrated concentric ring targets or not). We are further suggesting using a target that one person is now going to have to have printed and made available to everyone or make them ourselves (My thanks for James, I believe, offering to take on the task of producing the targets commercially). We now seem to be unsure how the new system will compare to the other competing systems and society-wide. I sincerely doubt all of the individual kingdoms will adopt this new single system. It has been further proposed
              that we add elements of the current, non-period target to the proposed non-period target to facilitate this latter problem.

              Have I missed anything?

              I really have no opposition to the new target or scoring system. I think it disingenuous to call it "period". I do not think it will improve the appeal of archery to the non archers or general public. It will give us a target that will not look commonplace to the general public but it will not give us a real, period target. If it helps our archers get more into their personas, great. Personally, it would help me create the dream more if most of the people I were shooting tournaments with had bows that were not fiberglass backed recurves.

              Cuan mac Niall

              Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...> wrote: Actually, replying to myself because of another note ...

              Again, the discussion started with 'lets have more period targets'.

              It's been shown from illustrations, that the closest we can come to a
              'period concentric ring target' in period, is in fact a concentric
              ring target ... either with 2 rings (outer/inner), or perhaps a '3rd'
              of the peg in the middle.

              Illustrations show these directly on a butt.

              (There are also illustrations of Square targets on butts)

              Yet the current discussions of printing these targets, is not to just
              print a couple of concentric circles to match the illustrations ...
              but instead to illuminate the borders to make them 'look fancy'

              That is not, from my research, in period practice ... yet we are going
              down the path to do that, calling it 'period'.

              Siegfried

              On 6/26/07, Siegfried <siegfriedfaust@...> wrote:
              > I just realized, and found it interesting ...
              >
              > That this started as a discussion of 'Why aren't we using REALLY
              > period targets ... and not what we currently do use ... as even the
              > Period IKAC face isn't really period'
              >
              > And has turned into:
              >
              > Let's mass produce the period IKAC face, and get everyone using them alot.
              >
              > Just pointing that out.
              >
              > Siegfried
              >
              >
              > --
              > __________________________________________________________
              > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
              > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
              > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
              > http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
              >

              --
              __________________________________________________________
              THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
              Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
              Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
              http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/





              ---------------------------------
              Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
              Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James Koch
              Siegfried makes a valid point. Let s not, in the name of doing everything we can, do too much. In my opinion a simple target is good enough. In my opinion
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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                Siegfried makes a valid point. Let's not, in the name of doing
                everything we can, do too much. In my opinion a simple target is
                good enough. In my opinion we ought to put the real thought into a
                variety of ways of using our target that don't involve much
                mathematics and are easily scored from a distance.
                >
                Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                >
                >
                At 10:43 AM 6/26/2007, you wrote:

                >Actually, replying to myself because of another note ...
                >
                >Again, the discussion started with 'lets have more period targets'.
                >
                >It's been shown from illustrations, that the closest we can come to a
                >'period concentric ring target' in period, is in fact a concentric
                >ring target ... either with 2 rings (outer/inner), or perhaps a '3rd'
                >of the peg in the middle.
                >
                >Illustrations show these directly on a butt.
                >
                >(There are also illustrations of Square targets on butts)
                >
                >Yet the current discussions of printing these targets, is not to just
                >print a couple of concentric circles to match the illustrations ...
                >but instead to illuminate the borders to make them 'look fancy'
                >
                >That is not, from my research, in period practice ... yet we are going
                >down the path to do that, calling it 'period'.
                >
                >Siegfried
                >
                >On 6/26/07, Siegfried
                ><<mailto:siegfriedfaust%40gmail.com>siegfriedfaust@...> wrote:
                > > I just realized, and found it interesting ...
                > >
                > > That this started as a discussion of 'Why aren't we using REALLY
                > > period targets ... and not what we currently do use ... as even the
                > > Period IKAC face isn't really period'
                > >
                > > And has turned into:
                > >
                > > Let's mass produce the period IKAC face, and get everyone using them alot.
                > >
                > > Just pointing that out.
                > >
                > > Siegfried
                > >
                > >
                > > --
                > > __________________________________________________________
                > > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust -
                > <http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/
                > > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                > > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                > > <http://eliw.com/>http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                > >
                >
                >--
                >__________________________________________________________
                >THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - <http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/
                >Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                >Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                ><http://eliw.com/>http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John edgerton
                For a variety of ways to use it, I would suggest having the wreath border as that allows two different sizes of wreath, arrows inside or arrows outside in
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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                  For a variety of ways to use it, I would suggest having the wreath
                  border as that allows two different sizes of wreath, arrows inside or
                  arrows outside in addition to the rings.

                  Jon

                  On Jun 26, 2007, at 10:46 AM, James Koch wrote:

                  > Siegfried makes a valid point. Let's not, in the name of doing
                  > everything we can, do too much. In my opinion a simple target is
                  > good enough. In my opinion we ought to put the real thought into a
                  > variety of ways of using our target that don't involve much
                  > mathematics and are easily scored from a distance.
                  > >
                  > Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                  > >
                  > >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Siegfried
                  Sir Jon, as stated, this is not the/a poll, however, I do want to give you my own point of view, from the east coast ... (BTW, we really have to get together
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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                    Sir Jon, as stated, this is not the/a poll, however, I do want to give
                    you my own point of view, from the 'east coast' ...

                    (BTW, we really have to get together sometime when I'm on the west coast)

                    > 1) Our archery ranges would look more period if modern style target
                    > faces were not used.

                    I do not believe that the general populace, looks at a FITA target,
                    and thinks 'oh my thats not period' ... It's what they are used to
                    seeing (for good or bad) in 'historical movies' ... It's also not
                    something that they see everyday, but it's also something that when
                    they see, they go 'oooh, archery'

                    'modern' archers that most people are used to seeing (ie, compound /
                    hunters), usually use very different faces (the solid black ones for
                    example), or animal faces.

                    Also, the 'more educated' level of people know that the 5 ring target
                    is used in the York round, and other 'historical archery shoots' ...
                    by the King's scoring, etc. It has a historical flair, that it's 100
                    years out of period, doesn't cross their mind.

                    The 'extra more educated' have seen the various pictures of concentric
                    ring period shoots ... and don't worry that the artist depicted 2
                    circles, instead of 5 ... the concept was there.

                    So, 'might' it make our range 'more period-ish'? yes.

                    Will it be seen as making our range look more period? no.

                    (And again, I will point out, at least out here, it's only used at
                    practices really anyway, so you are talking about making the range
                    look more period, when we are all standing around in bluejeans and
                    T-Shirts anyway)

                    > 3) The five color FITA face used for the Open division of the IKAC
                    > should be replaced by a more period looking face.

                    No, IMO, for reasons that (A) it will 'ruin' the open/period crossbow
                    distinction (or at least, if you do it, combine the two categories)
                    ... and (B) It will ensure, IMO, that even less IKAC's will be shot
                    (something that has been happening over time anyway), when it can't be
                    shot with "regular FITA RR's"

                    > 4) The five color FITA face should not be replaced for RRs and
                    > IKACs, but a new general use period style face should be created.

                    I certainly have no issues if someone wants to start printing up and
                    selling the 'Period Ikac faces' ... I only see issues with us
                    'switching everything over because 'this is more period' ...

                    Especially when we are still often shooting at foam butts ... with big
                    green/white nets behind them ... and more often shooting at barney,
                    stuff animals, clay pigeons, balloons, etc.

                    Just my feelings, from the East Coast / Atlantian point of view.

                    Siegfried


                    --
                    _________________________________________________________________________
                    THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                    Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                    Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                    http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                  • Hobbe
                    ... My next question: Are we going to do away with most novelty shoots, because they are not period? I ve looked around a little bit and found reference to
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
                      wrote:
                      > That this started as a discussion of 'Why aren't we using REALLY
                      > period targets ... and not what we currently do use ... as even the
                      > Period IKAC face isn't really period'

                      My next question:

                      Are we going to do away with most novelty shoots, because they are
                      not period? I've looked around a little bit and found reference to
                      popinjay, clout and a few other period competitions. Everything else
                      we do is not.

                      I assume that advancing warrior, castle window and targets like that
                      were not practiced on in period, but we are trying to recreate a
                      period "feel" so we use them.

                      I am positive that dragons, clay pidgeons, rats, friend/foe, etc
                      targets were not seen on an archery range

                      I see this entire conversation as being "change for the sake of
                      change". Not at all an effort to inject any actual periodness into
                      archery.
                    • jameswolfden
                      The short answer is No, we aren t. It has never come up in the discussion. If you don t like the idea, then just say you don t like it. You don t need to try
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
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                        The short answer is No, we aren't. It has never come up in the discussion. If you don't like
                        the idea, then just say you don't like it. You don't need to try to scare people into thinking
                        that the Period Police are going to steal all the fun stuff away.

                        Medieval archery is not just target archery. Shoots to recreate hunting and war are fine.
                        Many of the other shoots are just mark shoots with interesting targets. If you can do a
                        popinjay or a clout shoot, that would be great. If you haven't tried a wand shoot with a
                        plain green stick, I got to tell you that it sure beats duck tape or a pool noodle. Sure, I
                        would prefer clay pigeons over balloons even though neither targets were used in period
                        but use what you need or have. And haven't we all outgrown shooting at Barney targets. I
                        would suggest that Spongebob character but I don't even know if that's is current.

                        When I switched the conversation on the RR Ranking system to the current discussion on
                        the "Period" Target, it was based solely on the Royal Round and the desire to have
                        something that didn't just look like I was shooting a FITA round. I have no issues with
                        novelty shoots.

                        James




                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Hobbe" <clanyoungvp@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > My next question:
                        >
                        > Are we going to do away with most novelty shoots, because they are
                        > not period? I've looked around a little bit and found reference to
                        > popinjay, clout and a few other period competitions. Everything else
                        > we do is not.
                      • Carolus
                        Actually, I saw an earlier post which mentioned leaving the existing RR s and IKAC s in place and adding the SCA periodesque style analogs in addition. The
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 27, 2007
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                          Actually, I saw an earlier post which mentioned leaving the existing
                          RR's and IKAC's in place and adding the SCA periodesque style analogs
                          in addition. The existing rounds are comfortable for many people,
                          familiar to run, and have a long track record for comparison. Adding
                          the new analogs as additional shoots will give a chance to see side
                          by side comparisons, get people used to them, and see if they want to
                          make the change. Mandating a sudden change will tend to cause a
                          backlash and disruption which could greatly diminish the effect of
                          what is intended. If this is such a good idea, then putting the two
                          shoots side by side will prove it and natural progression will shift
                          interest, if not the old shoots will remain.
                          Carolus

                          At 09:32 AM 6/26/2007, you wrote:

                          >Lets try to put some numbers to the discussion and set up a poll see
                          >what the support for the idea is on this group.
                          >
                          >The following is not the poll, just ideas for discussion on how to
                          >set up the poll .
                          >
                          >First we would need to agree on how to word the question or
                          >questions. I think responses of "1) strongly agree 2) somewhat
                          >agree 3) do not care 4) somewhat disagree 5) strongly disagree"
                          >might give good indication.
                          >
                          >Perhaps a series of questions.
                          >
                          >1) Our archery ranges would look more period if modern style target
                          >faces were not used.
                          >
                          >2) The five color FITA face used for Royal Rounds should be replaced
                          >by a more period looking face.
                          >
                          >3) The five color FITA face used for the Open division of the IKAC
                          >should be replaced by a more period looking face.
                          >
                          >4) The five color FITA face should not be replaced for RRs and
                          >IKACs, but a new general use period style face should be created.
                          >
                          >5) etc., etc.
                          >
                          >Then some questions as to what a new period face should look like.
                          >
                          >As to targets that "Look fancy" paintings of birds and arms of other
                          >cities, etc were used in period as targets. See "Historical Targets"
                          >by Braun. It is not necessary to illuminate the border wreath on the
                          >target. But, why not? It would help to show that the archery
                          >community is interested in having all of our gear look good. I will
                          >admit that I have not seen examples of two ring or two ring with peg
                          >targets with decorated borders or wreaths with illuminations in the
                          >leaves. But, illuminations within leaves and vines in manuscripts
                          >were common.
                          >
                          >Jon
                          >
                          >On Jun 26, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Siegfried wrote:
                          >
                          > > Actually, replying to myself because of another note ...
                          > >
                          > > Again, the discussion started with 'lets have more period targets'.
                          > >
                          > > It's been shown from illustrations, that the closest we can come to a
                          > > 'period concentric ring target' in period, is in fact a concentric
                          > > ring target ... either with 2 rings (outer/inner), or perhaps a '3rd'
                          > > of the peg in the middle.
                          > >
                          > > Illustrations show these directly on a butt.
                          > >
                          > > (There are also illustrations of Square targets on butts)
                          > >
                          > > Yet the current discussions of printing these targets, is not to just
                          > > print a couple of concentric circles to match the illustrations ...
                          > > but instead to illuminate the borders to make them 'look fancy'
                          > >
                          > > That is not, from my research, in period practice ... yet we are going
                          > > down the path to do that, calling it 'period'.
                          > >
                          > > Siegfried
                          > >
                          > > On 6/26/07, Siegfried
                          > <<mailto:siegfriedfaust%40gmail.com>siegfriedfaust@...> wrote:
                          > > > I just realized, and found it interesting ...
                          > > >
                          > > > That this started as a discussion of 'Why aren't we using REALLY
                          > > > period targets ... and not what we currently do use ... as even the
                          > > > Period IKAC face isn't really period'
                          > > >
                          > > > And has turned into:
                          > > >
                          > > > Let's mass produce the period IKAC face, and get everyone using
                          > > them alot.
                          > > >
                          > > > Just pointing that out.
                          > > >
                          > > > Siegfried
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --
                          > > > __________________________________________________________
                          > > > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust -
                          > <http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/
                          > > > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                          > > > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                          > > > <http://eliw.com/>http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > __________________________________________________________
                          > > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust -
                          > <http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/
                          > > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                          > > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                          > > <http://eliw.com/>http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
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                        • Hobbe
                          ... discussion. If you don t like ... scare people into thinking ... Okies, I don t like the idea. And *I* am the one who is currently scared of the period
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 27, 2007
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                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jameswolfden@...>
                            wrote:
                            > The short answer is No, we aren't. It has never come up in the
                            discussion. If you don't like
                            > the idea, then just say you don't like it. You don't need to try to
                            scare people into thinking
                            > that the Period Police are going to steal all the fun stuff away.
                            >
                            Okies, I don't like the idea.

                            And *I* am the one who is currently scared of the period police.

                            You show me a period target with definitive dimensions and I'll try
                            to use it. Until then, I'll use the concentric circle one that has
                            even sized rings rather than the concentric circle that has different
                            sized rings.

                            I thought it had been well established that royal rounds are found
                            mainly at practice, where we dress and do everything else mundanely.

                            The events are where you can effect change and I would support
                            removal of fita targets in that environment.

                            What I cannot understand is this mad rush to wipeout inexpensive and
                            firmly established practice methodology and the rebuilding of the
                            royal round.

                            -Hobbe
                          • jameswolfden
                            I don t think any of the period targets that we find will be a replacement for the Royal Round. Most that I am aware of would work for a novelty shoot but not
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 27, 2007
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                              I don't think any of the period targets that we find will be a replacement for the Royal
                              Round. Most that I am aware of would work for a novelty shoot but not a ranking system. I
                              have my own issues with the RR Ranking system but I think its here to stay.

                              Everyone makes a claim that Royal Rounds are found mainly at practise but almost every
                              event I go to, RR with FITA targets are there. I have gone to some Kingdom events and was
                              quite surprized to find the only archery scheduled were Royal Rounds. Even when there are
                              other archery tournaments, the range is usually open for Royal Rounds at some point.

                              Many of the novelty shoots are still based on aspects of the RR and FITA target with some
                              variation. At a recent event, one aspect of the archery warpoint was an Open category
                              Royal Round. Usually, at least, they are slight variations, like shooting through a rotating
                              windmill at FITA targets on the other side or the disappearing ring. I think they are more
                              common then we claim because they have become a little like wallpaper. We start to forget
                              they are there.

                              James Wolfden

                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Hobbe" <clanyoungvp@...> wrote:
                              > Okies, I don't like the idea.
                              >
                              > And *I* am the one who is currently scared of the period police.
                              >
                              > You show me a period target with definitive dimensions and I'll try
                              > to use it. Until then, I'll use the concentric circle one that has
                              > even sized rings rather than the concentric circle that has different
                              > sized rings.
                              >
                              > I thought it had been well established that royal rounds are found
                              > mainly at practice, where we dress and do everything else mundanely.
                              >
                              > The events are where you can effect change and I would support
                              > removal of fita targets in that environment.
                              >
                              > What I cannot understand is this mad rush to wipeout inexpensive and
                              > firmly established practice methodology and the rebuilding of the
                              > royal round.
                              >
                              > -Hobbe
                              >
                            • Siegfried
                              ... Come to Atlantia ... Siegfried -- _________________________________________________________________________ THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust -
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                > Everyone makes a claim that Royal Rounds are found mainly at practise but almost every
                                > event I go to, RR with FITA targets are there. I have gone to some Kingdom events and was
                                > quite surprized to find the only archery scheduled were Royal Rounds.

                                Come to Atlantia ...

                                Siegfried


                                --
                                _________________________________________________________________________
                                THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                              • James Koch
                                Carolus, ... I agree 100%. We ought to encourage the folks who maintain the web sites with the scores to also display the scores on the new targets. I d be
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                  Carolus,
                                  >
                                  I agree 100%. We ought to encourage the folks who maintain the web
                                  sites with the scores to also display the scores on the new
                                  targets. I'd be curious to see what my average would be for the two.
                                  >
                                  Jim Koch (Gladius)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >At 03:11 AM 6/27/2007, you wrote:

                                  >Actually, I saw an earlier post which mentioned leaving the existing
                                  >RR's and IKAC's in place and adding the SCA periodesque style analogs
                                  >in addition. The existing rounds are comfortable for many people,
                                  >familiar to run, and have a long track record for comparison. Adding
                                  >the new analogs as additional shoots will give a chance to see side
                                  >by side comparisons, get people used to them, and see if they want to
                                  >make the change. Mandating a sudden change will tend to cause a
                                  >backlash and disruption which could greatly diminish the effect of
                                  >what is intended. If this is such a good idea, then putting the two
                                  >shoots side by side will prove it and natural progression will shift
                                  >interest, if not the old shoots will remain.
                                  >Carolus
                                  >
                                  >At 09:32 AM 6/26/2007, you wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >Lets try to put some numbers to the discussion and set up a poll see
                                  > >what the support for the idea is on this group.
                                  > >
                                  > >The following is not the poll, just ideas for discussion on how to
                                  > >set up the poll .
                                  > >
                                  > >First we would need to agree on how to word the question or
                                  > >questions. I think responses of "1) strongly agree 2) somewhat
                                  > >agree 3) do not care 4) somewhat disagree 5) strongly disagree"
                                  > >might give good indication.
                                  > >
                                  > >Perhaps a series of questions.
                                  > >
                                  > >1) Our archery ranges would look more period if modern style target
                                  > >faces were not used.
                                  > >
                                  > >2) The five color FITA face used for Royal Rounds should be replaced
                                  > >by a more period looking face.
                                  > >
                                  > >3) The five color FITA face used for the Open division of the IKAC
                                  > >should be replaced by a more period looking face.
                                  > >
                                  > >4) The five color FITA face should not be replaced for RRs and
                                  > >IKACs, but a new general use period style face should be created.
                                  > >
                                  > >5) etc., etc.
                                  > >
                                  > >Then some questions as to what a new period face should look like.
                                  > >
                                  > >As to targets that "Look fancy" paintings of birds and arms of other
                                  > >cities, etc were used in period as targets. See "Historical Targets"
                                  > >by Braun. It is not necessary to illuminate the border wreath on the
                                  > >target. But, why not? It would help to show that the archery
                                  > >community is interested in having all of our gear look good. I will
                                  > >admit that I have not seen examples of two ring or two ring with peg
                                  > >targets with decorated borders or wreaths with illuminations in the
                                  > >leaves. But, illuminations within leaves and vines in manuscripts
                                  > >were common.
                                  > >
                                  > >Jon
                                  > >
                                  > >On Jun 26, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Siegfried wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Actually, replying to myself because of another note ...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Again, the discussion started with 'lets have more period targets'.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It's been shown from illustrations, that the closest we can come to a
                                  > > > 'period concentric ring target' in period, is in fact a concentric
                                  > > > ring target ... either with 2 rings (outer/inner), or perhaps a '3rd'
                                  > > > of the peg in the middle.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Illustrations show these directly on a butt.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > (There are also illustrations of Square targets on butts)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yet the current discussions of printing these targets, is not to just
                                  > > > print a couple of concentric circles to match the illustrations ...
                                  > > > but instead to illuminate the borders to make them 'look fancy'
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That is not, from my research, in period practice ... yet we are going
                                  > > > down the path to do that, calling it 'period'.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Siegfried
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On 6/26/07, Siegfried
                                  > >
                                  > <<mailto:siegfriedfaust%40gmail.com><mailto:siegfriedfaust%40gmail.com>siegfriedfaust@...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > > > I just realized, and found it interesting ...
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > That this started as a discussion of 'Why aren't we using REALLY
                                  > > > > period targets ... and not what we currently do use ... as even the
                                  > > > > Period IKAC face isn't really period'
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > And has turned into:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Let's mass produce the period IKAC face, and get everyone using
                                  > > > them alot.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Just pointing that out.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Siegfried
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --
                                  > > > > __________________________________________________________
                                  > > > > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust -
                                  > > <<http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/
                                  > > > > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                  > > > > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                  > > > > <<http://eliw.com/>http://eliw.com/>http://eliw.com/ -
                                  > <http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/>http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --
                                  > > > __________________________________________________________
                                  > > > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust -
                                  > > <<http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/>http://crossbows.biz/
                                  > > > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                  > > > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                  > > > <<http://eliw.com/>http://eliw.com/>http://eliw.com/ -
                                  > <http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/>http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  > >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  > >Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date:
                                  > >6/26/2007 11:54 PM
                                  >
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                                  >No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                  >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  >Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date:
                                  >6/26/2007 11:54 PM
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Fritz
                                  When Carolus put fingers to keys it was 6/27/07 3:11 AM... ... I like it. Give natural selection a chance. If you call the periodesquish shoot the SCA Round
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 27, 2007
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                                    When Carolus put fingers to keys it was 6/27/07 3:11 AM...

                                    > Actually, I saw an earlier post which mentioned leaving the existing
                                    > RR's and IKAC's in place and adding the SCA periodesque style analogs
                                    > in addition. ... If this is such a good idea, then putting the two
                                    > shoots side by side will prove it and natural progression will shift
                                    > interest, if not the old shoots will remain.

                                    I like it. Give natural selection a chance.

                                    If you call the periodesquish shoot the "SCA Round" and actually have
                                    one set of rules for how it's shot (as opposed to the slight variations
                                    from Kingdom to Kingdom for the Royal Round), that might improve it's
                                    chance of survival.


                                    --
                                    Fritz
                                    Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.
                                  • jameswolfden
                                    This seems like a very reasonable step as most Kingdoms won t want to jump in without testing the water. While it could be a separate shoot entirely, I think
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 28, 2007
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                                      This seems like a very reasonable step as most Kingdoms won't want
                                      to jump in without testing the water. While it could be a separate
                                      shoot entirely, I think we could also make it the just another
                                      division in the Royal Rounds.

                                      I would call it the SCA Standard Round and refer to the target as
                                      the SCA Standard target. Make it truly open to all bow types -
                                      recurves, longbows, crossbows, period bows, and period crossbows.
                                      Everybody on the same target. Everybody on the same scoring system.
                                      And individually, it wouldn't matter whether your average came from
                                      a mix of recurve, period longbow, and crossbow. It would just be
                                      your average.

                                      I would also suggest that we encourage people to shoot the division
                                      with the most period gear they have whether it be a modern olympic
                                      style recurve or a 120 pound yew warbow.

                                      James Wolfden
                                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Fritz <carl.west@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > When Carolus put fingers to keys it was 6/27/07 3:11 AM...
                                      >
                                      > > Actually, I saw an earlier post which mentioned leaving the
                                      existing
                                      > > RR's and IKAC's in place and adding the SCA periodesque style
                                      analogs
                                      > > in addition. ... If this is such a good idea, then putting the
                                      two
                                      > > shoots side by side will prove it and natural progression will
                                      shift
                                      > > interest, if not the old shoots will remain.
                                      >
                                      > I like it. Give natural selection a chance.
                                      >
                                      > If you call the periodesquish shoot the "SCA Round" and actually
                                      have
                                      > one set of rules for how it's shot (as opposed to the slight
                                      variations
                                      > from Kingdom to Kingdom for the Royal Round), that might improve
                                      it's
                                      > chance of survival.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Fritz
                                      > Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.
                                      >
                                    • James Koch
                                      James, ... I agree with this 100%. I d just like to add that we ought to figure which kingdoms do not currently officially recognize Royal Rounds and
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jun 28, 2007
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                                        James,
                                        >
                                        I agree with this 100%. I'd just like to add that we ought to figure
                                        which kingdoms do not currently officially recognize Royal Rounds and
                                        encourage them to start shooting at this new target. We ought to
                                        start with their marshals and have them contact the royalty once a
                                        basic score gathering system is in place.
                                        >
                                        What is the possibility that someone on the Society level could start
                                        collecting and posting the scores as with the Winter shoots? To save
                                        a great deal of work, the Society postings could simply be the top
                                        averages gleaned from the individual kingdoms. Where a kingdom
                                        doesn't collect the scores they could temporarily be sent to the
                                        person in charge of the Society score collection.
                                        >
                                        Jim Koch (Gladius)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > At 12:03 PM 6/28/2007, you wrote:

                                        >This seems like a very reasonable step as most Kingdoms won't want
                                        >to jump in without testing the water. While it could be a separate
                                        >shoot entirely, I think we could also make it the just another
                                        >division in the Royal Rounds.
                                        >
                                        >I would call it the SCA Standard Round and refer to the target as
                                        >the SCA Standard target. Make it truly open to all bow types -
                                        >recurves, longbows, crossbows, period bows, and period crossbows.
                                        >Everybody on the same target. Everybody on the same scoring system.
                                        >And individually, it wouldn't matter whether your average came from
                                        >a mix of recurve, period longbow, and crossbow. It would just be
                                        >your average.
                                        >
                                        >I would also suggest that we encourage people to shoot the division
                                        >with the most period gear they have whether it be a modern olympic
                                        >style recurve or a 120 pound yew warbow.
                                        >
                                        >James Wolfden
                                        >--- In
                                        ><mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com,
                                        >Fritz <carl.west@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > When Carolus put fingers to keys it was 6/27/07 3:11 AM...
                                        > >
                                        > > > Actually, I saw an earlier post which mentioned leaving the
                                        >existing
                                        > > > RR's and IKAC's in place and adding the SCA periodesque style
                                        >analogs
                                        > > > in addition. ... If this is such a good idea, then putting the
                                        >two
                                        > > > shoots side by side will prove it and natural progression will
                                        >shift
                                        > > > interest, if not the old shoots will remain.
                                        > >
                                        > > I like it. Give natural selection a chance.
                                        > >
                                        > > If you call the periodesquish shoot the "SCA Round" and actually
                                        >have
                                        > > one set of rules for how it's shot (as opposed to the slight
                                        >variations
                                        > > from Kingdom to Kingdom for the Royal Round), that might improve
                                        >it's
                                        > > chance of survival.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --
                                        > > Fritz
                                        > > Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Allison Roth
                                        Hi all; I m from Canada, but currently in the US for a few days. I ve been asked to try to bring back some arrow blunts for those of us looking at combat
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jun 28, 2007
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                                          Hi all;
                                          I'm from Canada, but currently in the US for a few days. I've been asked to try to bring back some arrow blunts for those of us looking at combat archery, to save shipping over the border. However, I'm not having a lot of luck tracking them down. Can anyone help me? I'm from An Tir (just in case their rules are more or less specific about this), and currently in Champaign/Urbana IL for a few days. (I'm guessing it'll be an online merchant, rather than someone local, but...)
                                          Thank you!
                                          YIS,
                                          Lianor


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Leonard Baldt
                                          Greetings, I am Leonidas OGGS. I live in Vulkanfeldt. I stock all the parts needed to build combat arrows. Blunts are $1.25 each. Components are $35.00 a
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jun 28, 2007
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                                            Greetings,

                                            I am Leonidas OGGS. I live in Vulkanfeldt. I stock all the parts
                                            needed to build combat arrows. Blunts are $1.25 each. Components are
                                            $35.00 a dozen. I can ship them anywhere.

                                            YIS Leonidas


                                            On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:54 PM, Allison Roth wrote:

                                            > Hi all;
                                            > I'm from Canada, but currently in the US for a few days. I've been
                                            > asked to try to bring back some arrow blunts for those of us
                                            > looking at combat archery, to save shipping over the border.
                                            > However, I'm not having a lot of luck tracking them down. Can
                                            > anyone help me? I'm from An Tir (just in case their rules are more
                                            > or less specific about this), and currently in Champaign/Urbana IL
                                            > for a few days. (I'm guessing it'll be an online merchant, rather
                                            > than someone local, but...)
                                            > Thank you!
                                            > YIS,
                                            > Lianor
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • lauren inzer
                                            www.housasgard.com has lots of baldar blunts, or i guess combat archery blunts in the sale area of the website. arnora ... -- One can never have too many
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jun 29, 2007
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                                              www.housasgard.com has lots of baldar blunts, or i guess combat archery
                                              blunts in the sale area of the website.
                                              arnora


                                              On 6/29/07, Leonard Baldt <baldt@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Greetings,
                                              >
                                              > I am Leonidas OGGS. I live in Vulkanfeldt. I stock all the parts
                                              > needed to build combat arrows. Blunts are $1.25 each. Components are
                                              > $35.00 a dozen. I can ship them anywhere.
                                              >
                                              > YIS Leonidas
                                              >
                                              > On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:54 PM, Allison Roth wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Hi all;
                                              > > I'm from Canada, but currently in the US for a few days. I've been
                                              > > asked to try to bring back some arrow blunts for those of us
                                              > > looking at combat archery, to save shipping over the border.
                                              > > However, I'm not having a lot of luck tracking them down. Can
                                              > > anyone help me? I'm from An Tir (just in case their rules are more
                                              > > or less specific about this), and currently in Champaign/Urbana IL
                                              > > for a few days. (I'm guessing it'll be an online merchant, rather
                                              > > than someone local, but...)
                                              > > Thank you!
                                              > > YIS,
                                              > > Lianor
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >



                                              --
                                              One can never have too many flowers
                                              ~ Audrey Hepburn


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • logantheboweyder
                                              Calontir doesn t use Royal Rounds for a ranking system. We occassionally collect the scores, but don t really do much with them. About the only time I see
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Jun 29, 2007
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                                                Calontir doesn't use Royal Rounds for a ranking system. We
                                                occassionally collect the scores, but don't really do much with them.

                                                About the only time I see them is when they are shot as part of an
                                                Ikac.

                                                Just a general impression, and not an official statement, from the
                                                heartland.

                                                Logan

                                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > James,
                                                > >
                                                > I agree with this 100%. I'd just like to add that we ought to
                                                figure
                                                > which kingdoms do not currently officially recognize Royal Rounds
                                                and
                                                > encourage them to start shooting at this new target. We ought to
                                                > start with their marshals and have them contact the royalty once a
                                                > basic score gathering system is in place.
                                                > >
                                                > What is the possibility that someone on the Society level could
                                                start
                                                > collecting and posting the scores as with the Winter shoots? To
                                                save
                                                > a great deal of work, the Society postings could simply be the top
                                                > averages gleaned from the individual kingdoms. Where a kingdom
                                                > doesn't collect the scores they could temporarily be sent to the
                                                > person in charge of the Society score collection.
                                                > >
                                                > Jim Koch (Gladius)
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > At 12:03 PM 6/28/2007, you wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >This seems like a very reasonable step as most Kingdoms won't want
                                                > >to jump in without testing the water. While it could be a separate
                                                > >shoot entirely, I think we could also make it the just another
                                                > >division in the Royal Rounds.
                                                > >
                                                > >I would call it the SCA Standard Round and refer to the target as
                                                > >the SCA Standard target. Make it truly open to all bow types -
                                                > >recurves, longbows, crossbows, period bows, and period crossbows.
                                                > >Everybody on the same target. Everybody on the same scoring
                                                system.
                                                > >And individually, it wouldn't matter whether your average came
                                                from
                                                > >a mix of recurve, period longbow, and crossbow. It would just be
                                                > >your average.
                                                > >
                                                > >I would also suggest that we encourage people to shoot the
                                                division
                                                > >with the most period gear they have whether it be a modern olympic
                                                > >style recurve or a 120 pound yew warbow.
                                                > >
                                                > >James Wolfden
                                                > >--- In
                                                > ><mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>SCA-
                                                Archery@yahoogroups.com,
                                                > >Fritz <carl.west@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > When Carolus put fingers to keys it was 6/27/07 3:11 AM...
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > Actually, I saw an earlier post which mentioned leaving the
                                                > >existing
                                                > > > > RR's and IKAC's in place and adding the SCA periodesque style
                                                > >analogs
                                                > > > > in addition. ... If this is such a good idea, then putting
                                                the
                                                > >two
                                                > > > > shoots side by side will prove it and natural progression
                                                will
                                                > >shift
                                                > > > > interest, if not the old shoots will remain.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I like it. Give natural selection a chance.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > If you call the periodesquish shoot the "SCA Round" and
                                                actually
                                                > >have
                                                > > > one set of rules for how it's shot (as opposed to the slight
                                                > >variations
                                                > > > from Kingdom to Kingdom for the Royal Round), that might
                                                improve
                                                > >it's
                                                > > > chance of survival.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --
                                                > > > Fritz
                                                > > > Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                              • Sheldon the Just
                                                July 14 Sumer Archery Shoote Come all ye stout yeomen and Ladies of the bow to Concordia s Sumer Archery Shoote! Wax your strings, straighten your shafts and
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Jul 5, 2007
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                                                  July 14 Sumer Archery Shoote

                                                  Come all ye stout yeomen and Ladies of the bow to
                                                  Concordia's Sumer Archery Shoote!

                                                  Wax your strings, straighten your shafts and make
                                                  ready to bend your bow against a variety of targets
                                                  including a Roving Range through the Green Wood, the
                                                  Clout, the Friend ~Foe, Advancing Warrior and several
                                                  challenging novelty shootes!

                                                  Prizes for all ranks of archers! Active games there
                                                  will be for those who are not yet archers!

                                                  Bring your best woodland dish to share at a merry
                                                  foresters pot luck feaste on the greensward below the
                                                  beauteous Helderberg Escarpment!

                                                  Site Fee: $7 for adults
                                                  $6 for age 6-17
                                                  Free age 0-5
                                                  Adults without proof of membership must pay a
                                                  Nonmember $3 bonus.
                                                  Rakowana Archery Club Members will receive a $2
                                                  discount

                                                  Directions:
                                                  Make your best way to Exit 24 of the New York State
                                                  Thruway (I-90). From the toll booths, stay on I-90
                                                  for four exits. Get off at exit 4, Slingerlands NY
                                                  Route 85. Follow Route 85 for about 11 1/2 miles to
                                                  Route 85A in New Salem. This is the second
                                                  intersection of Route 85 with Route 85A. Turn right
                                                  on Route 85A and follow it for about 1/2 mile. Turn
                                                  left onto Picard Road (Albany County Route 307) and go
                                                  about 1 1/2 miles. The site is on the left.



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