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Re: [SCA-Archery] question for the list

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  • Nest verch Tangwistel
    John and Carol Atkins wrote: Oh here it is. The painting is by Vittore Carpaccio in his Stories from the life of St Ursula Definitely
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
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      John and Carol Atkins <cogworks@...> wrote:

      Oh here it is. The painting is by Vittore Carpaccio in his "Stories from the life of St Ursula"

      Definitely Italian. I have no idea what made me think it was German. Anyway I hold with my earlier theory. The quiver is more eastern than European.

      Nest


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    • Dallas Perry
      Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany belonged to the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of a
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
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        Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany belonged to
        the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of
        a stretch that a design for something as simple in function as a quiver, and
        indeed many other items would be similar in both areas.



        Albrecht von Reith



        -----Original Message-----
        From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Fritz
        Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:15 AM
        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] question for the list



        When John and Carol Atkins put fingers to keys it was 2/13/07 9:45 AM...

        > http://ph.groups
        <http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/photos/view/bdb9?b=5>
        yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/photos/view/bdb9?b=5
        > http://www.siue <http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/PLATE25DX.HTML>
        edu/COSTUMES/PLATE25DX.HTML
        >
        > The first link is to a picture in the photo section of this list.
        > Clearly the subject in this link matches the subject in the second
        > link. However, the first link titles the subject as a German hip
        > quiver, and the second link titles the picture Italian. ...

        The second source is tertiary at best. It is probably another fine
        example of what is wrong with most Victorian 'references'. The artist
        pretty clearly ripped off the first image, slightly altering the body
        proportions and stance, clothing details, and quiver design according to
        personal taste, author's directive, or inability to copy accurately.

        The SCA has been described as a bunch of 20th century people trying to
        re-enact a 19th century idea of what the Middle Ages really _should_
        have been about. While largely true, I'm not sure it's a complement.

        If there is a Victorian-era source for information about the middle-ages
        that is accurate. I don't know about it. Victorian sources tell you more
        about the aesthetics of _that_ age than they do about any other.

        I would go with "German".

        --
        Fritz
        Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.





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      • Kinjal of Moravia
        ... wrote: ... belonged to the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of a stretch that a design for something as simple in
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 14, 2007
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          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Dallas Perry" <dallasperry@...>
          wrote:>
          > Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany
          belonged to the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it
          would not be too far of a stretch that a design for something as
          simple in function as a quiver, and indeed many other items would be
          similar in both areas.
          > >
          > Albrecht von Reith
          >
          > ........................................................

          no stretch at all .. already documented in the archives here and
          Combat Archery are:

          travelers on the Varengian River routes (Black Sea to Baltic)
          selected weapons and clothing from many cultures -- whatever worked,
          e.g. the Cossack Kama blade is a cross between a Turkic semitar and
          Roman short sword. My 'banded-mail' vest is based on Chinese armor
          found in a 11th century German burial mound.

          all Carolingian soldiers had to carry three arrows to support
          archers -- so 'any' method of carrying arrows is period.

          the archery 'windsock' (Draco) is Alani in origin and found in many
          cultures including England.

          For me, the only 'strange' view of weapons, armor and clothing is
          the assumption by some that anything was unique to a particular
          culture. It is more than 'creative minds think alike' -- travel and
          trade were far more extensive that documented in common history
          books that only deal with nobility, religion and war.

          kinjal
          >
          >
        • blkknighti@aol.com
          Very true. other things to consider. The event depicted is in Germany (Cologne) The Artist is Italian painting in the Italian school. the clothing looks pretty
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 14, 2007
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            Very true. other things to consider.
            The event depicted is in Germany (Cologne)
            The Artist is Italian painting in the Italian school.
            the clothing looks pretty Italian
            the bow is hunnish and (someone said the quiver appears more eastern, I
            agree, and so too the bow) the quiver appears more eastern.
            The prince depicted in the painting as the story goes had the Huns kill her
            companions. Which may explain the Hunnish bow and quiver

              St. Ursula (and the 11 thousand virgins) was a daughter of a British
            Christian king betrothed to a pagan prince. She wished to preserve her virginity and
            said to her father that she could accept the marriage on condition that the
            prince's father gave her ten most noble virgins, each with a thousand virgins
            in her service, and would be allowed three years to consider. The virgins
            embarked a ship; after sea passage, they went up the Rhine as far as Colonge, later
            sailed on to Basel, after pilgrimage to Rome, where rhey met the Pope, they
            returned to Colonge. The frustrated Ursula's fiancé fired an arrow at her,
            which pierced her breast. Her companions were put to the sword by a king of the
            Huns.

            My rough conclusion. The bow and quiver in the picture is Hunnish. (the
            artist seems to have done some homework)
            I ahve found another painting depicting the incident by Hans Memling which
            has the Prince in full Armor and using a longbow. Dress is more of the english
            style.
            Hope this perspective helps.
            Richard

            In a message dated 2/13/07 8:31:15 PM, dallasperry@... writes:


            > Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany belonged to
            > the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of
            > a stretch that a design for something as simple in function as a quiver, and
            > indeed many other items would be similar in both areas.
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Carolus
            This is another example of my position that the SCA is more a Victorian recreation society than a truly medieval one. In our presentations it is more common
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 17, 2007
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              This is another example of my position that the SCA is more a
              Victorian recreation society than a truly medieval one. In our
              presentations it is more common to find the Victorian position of
              claiming to have all the answers and being positive in all knowledge
              when we are not up to date on the current research, do not have all
              the answers (maybe even the leading edge professionals don't have
              them yet), and even make up facts with assumptions to fill voids than
              it is to see a presentation expressing the current state of knowledge
              and admitting what we are filling in for lack of knowledge. The
              historical and archaeological records are mute on many details about
              the equipment we use so we have to fill in with what we do know. For
              example, we do not really know how common built up rests were on long
              bows so we assume it was most common to shoot off the hand. A
              reasonable assumption but not absolute. Read Jim Bradbury' s "The
              Medieval Siege" for how a professional handles missing data.
              Carolus

              At 09:20 AM 2/13/2007, you wrote:

              >It's important to understand the background behind any source material.
              >The academic world of the Victorians was very different then ours, for
              >all that the Victorians wanted to be seen as an age of enlightenment. In
              >part that difference comes about from the speed of information exchange.
              >Publish or perrish has always been a part of academic life. And in
              >Victorian times, academic review often only came after publication due
              >to the slow exchange of ideas and information. This lead to an often
              >heated debate about the virtues of a published work. And because it was
              >published to the public at large (more folks then were reading the
              >science journals and what not, then are today (no radio, no tv)), the
              >debate was also public. Reputations could be made an lost. So authors
              >took a very authoritarian point of view. Because to admit that you
              >didn't know some piece of information was percieved as a weakness, that
              >would be jumped all over.
              >
              >While our academic community can be just as cut throat at times. The
              >review process happens more before a work is published at large. And
              >because few people read the journals, there is actually not as much
              >riding on the line. It is actually possible to say you don't know
              >something. And it is also possible and better thought of to suggest
              >possibilities, rather then try to claim an absolute. It is a very
              >different environment, with only slight tendency to back slide into
              >Victorian thought patterns :)
              >
              >Njall


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