Re: [SCA-Archery] question for the list
- John and Carol Atkins <cogworks@...> wrote:
Oh here it is. The painting is by Vittore Carpaccio in his "Stories from the life of St Ursula"
Definitely Italian. I have no idea what made me think it was German. Anyway I hold with my earlier theory. The quiver is more eastern than European.
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
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- Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany belonged to
the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of
a stretch that a design for something as simple in function as a quiver, and
indeed many other items would be similar in both areas.
Albrecht von Reith
From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Fritz
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] question for the list
When John and Carol Atkins put fingers to keys it was 2/13/07 9:45 AM...
>The second source is tertiary at best. It is probably another fine
> The first link is to a picture in the photo section of this list.
> Clearly the subject in this link matches the subject in the second
> link. However, the first link titles the subject as a German hip
> quiver, and the second link titles the picture Italian. ...
example of what is wrong with most Victorian 'references'. The artist
pretty clearly ripped off the first image, slightly altering the body
proportions and stance, clothing details, and quiver design according to
personal taste, author's directive, or inability to copy accurately.
The SCA has been described as a bunch of 20th century people trying to
re-enact a 19th century idea of what the Middle Ages really _should_
have been about. While largely true, I'm not sure it's a complement.
If there is a Victorian-era source for information about the middle-ages
that is accurate. I don't know about it. Victorian sources tell you more
about the aesthetics of _that_ age than they do about any other.
I would go with "German".
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.
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- --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Dallas Perry" <dallasperry@...>
> Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germanybelonged to the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it
would not be too far of a stretch that a design for something as
simple in function as a quiver, and indeed many other items would be
similar in both areas.
> >no stretch at all .. already documented in the archives here and
> Albrecht von Reith
Combat Archery are:
travelers on the Varengian River routes (Black Sea to Baltic)
selected weapons and clothing from many cultures -- whatever worked,
e.g. the Cossack Kama blade is a cross between a Turkic semitar and
Roman short sword. My 'banded-mail' vest is based on Chinese armor
found in a 11th century German burial mound.
all Carolingian soldiers had to carry three arrows to support
archers -- so 'any' method of carrying arrows is period.
the archery 'windsock' (Draco) is Alani in origin and found in many
cultures including England.
For me, the only 'strange' view of weapons, armor and clothing is
the assumption by some that anything was unique to a particular
culture. It is more than 'creative minds think alike' -- travel and
trade were far more extensive that documented in common history
books that only deal with nobility, religion and war.
- Very true. other things to consider.
The event depicted is in Germany (Cologne)
The Artist is Italian painting in the Italian school.
the clothing looks pretty Italian
the bow is hunnish and (someone said the quiver appears more eastern, I
agree, and so too the bow) the quiver appears more eastern.
The prince depicted in the painting as the story goes had the Huns kill her
companions. Which may explain the Hunnish bow and quiver
St. Ursula (and the 11 thousand virgins) was a daughter of a British
Christian king betrothed to a pagan prince. She wished to preserve her virginity and
said to her father that she could accept the marriage on condition that the
prince's father gave her ten most noble virgins, each with a thousand virgins
in her service, and would be allowed three years to consider. The virgins
embarked a ship; after sea passage, they went up the Rhine as far as Colonge, later
sailed on to Basel, after pilgrimage to Rome, where rhey met the Pope, they
returned to Colonge. The frustrated Ursula's fiancé fired an arrow at her,
which pierced her breast. Her companions were put to the sword by a king of the
My rough conclusion. The bow and quiver in the picture is Hunnish. (the
artist seems to have done some homework)
I ahve found another painting depicting the incident by Hans Memling which
has the Prince in full Armor and using a longbow. Dress is more of the english
Hope this perspective helps.
In a message dated 2/13/07 8:31:15 PM, dallasperry@... writes:
> Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany belonged to[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of
> a stretch that a design for something as simple in function as a quiver, and
> indeed many other items would be similar in both areas.
- This is another example of my position that the SCA is more a
Victorian recreation society than a truly medieval one. In our
presentations it is more common to find the Victorian position of
claiming to have all the answers and being positive in all knowledge
when we are not up to date on the current research, do not have all
the answers (maybe even the leading edge professionals don't have
them yet), and even make up facts with assumptions to fill voids than
it is to see a presentation expressing the current state of knowledge
and admitting what we are filling in for lack of knowledge. The
historical and archaeological records are mute on many details about
the equipment we use so we have to fill in with what we do know. For
example, we do not really know how common built up rests were on long
bows so we assume it was most common to shoot off the hand. A
reasonable assumption but not absolute. Read Jim Bradbury' s "The
Medieval Siege" for how a professional handles missing data.
At 09:20 AM 2/13/2007, you wrote:
>It's important to understand the background behind any source material.--
>The academic world of the Victorians was very different then ours, for
>all that the Victorians wanted to be seen as an age of enlightenment. In
>part that difference comes about from the speed of information exchange.
>Publish or perrish has always been a part of academic life. And in
>Victorian times, academic review often only came after publication due
>to the slow exchange of ideas and information. This lead to an often
>heated debate about the virtues of a published work. And because it was
>published to the public at large (more folks then were reading the
>science journals and what not, then are today (no radio, no tv)), the
>debate was also public. Reputations could be made an lost. So authors
>took a very authoritarian point of view. Because to admit that you
>didn't know some piece of information was percieved as a weakness, that
>would be jumped all over.
>While our academic community can be just as cut throat at times. The
>review process happens more before a work is published at large. And
>because few people read the journals, there is actually not as much
>riding on the line. It is actually possible to say you don't know
>something. And it is also possible and better thought of to suggest
>possibilities, rather then try to claim an absolute. It is a very
>different environment, with only slight tendency to back slide into
>Victorian thought patterns :)
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