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Re: [SCA-Archery] question for the list

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  • Fritz
    When John and Carol Atkins put fingers to keys it was 2/13/07 9:45 AM... ... The second source is tertiary at best. It is probably another fine example of what
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
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      When John and Carol Atkins put fingers to keys it was 2/13/07 9:45 AM...

      > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/photos/view/bdb9?b=5
      > http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/PLATE25DX.HTML
      >
      > The first link is to a picture in the photo section of this list.
      > Clearly the subject in this link matches the subject in the second
      > link. However, the first link titles the subject as a German hip
      > quiver, and the second link titles the picture Italian. ...


      The second source is tertiary at best. It is probably another fine
      example of what is wrong with most Victorian 'references'. The artist
      pretty clearly ripped off the first image, slightly altering the body
      proportions and stance, clothing details, and quiver design according to
      personal taste, author's directive, or inability to copy accurately.

      The SCA has been described as a bunch of 20th century people trying to
      re-enact a 19th century idea of what the Middle Ages really _should_
      have been about. While largely true, I'm not sure it's a complement.

      If there is a Victorian-era source for information about the middle-ages
      that is accurate. I don't know about it. Victorian sources tell you more
      about the aesthetics of _that_ age than they do about any other.

      I would go with "German".

      --
      Fritz
      Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.
    • John edgerton
      If I remember correctly. The first is from an Italian painting and I have seen illustrations of similar Italian quivers. The second seems to be a redrawing of
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
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        If I remember correctly. The first is from an Italian painting and I
        have seen illustrations of similar Italian quivers. The second seems
        to be a redrawing of the first.

        Jon

        On Feb 13, 2007, at 6:45 AM, John and Carol Atkins wrote:

        > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/photos/view/bdb9?b=5
        > http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/PLATE25DX.HTML
        >
        > The first link is to a picture in the photo section of this list.
        > Clearly the subject in this link matches the subject in the second
        > link. However, the first link titles the subject as a German hip
        > quiver, and the second link titles the picture Italian. I have found
        > another link on-line, which I can not currently relocate, on how to
        > make this quiver and titles it an Italian quiver. Not that it truly
        > matters, but is this quiver/character Italian or German? (My version
        > of this quiver is posted in the photos section of this list under cog
        > photos.)
        >
        > cog
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Scott Jaqua
        ... It s important to understand the background behind any source material. The academic world of the Victorians was very different then ours, for all that the
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
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          > (snip)
          > The second source is tertiary at best. It is probably another fine
          > example of what is wrong with most Victorian 'references'. The artist
          > pretty clearly ripped off the first image, slightly altering the body
          > proportions and stance, clothing details, and quiver design according to
          > personal taste, author's directive, or inability to copy accurately.
          > (snip)
          > If there is a Victorian-era source for information about the middle-ages
          > that is accurate. I don't know about it. Victorian sources tell you more
          > about the aesthetics of _that_ age than they do about any other.
          >
          > Fritz
          > Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.

          It's important to understand the background behind any source material.
          The academic world of the Victorians was very different then ours, for
          all that the Victorians wanted to be seen as an age of enlightenment. In
          part that difference comes about from the speed of information exchange.
          Publish or perrish has always been a part of academic life. And in
          Victorian times, academic review often only came after publication due
          to the slow exchange of ideas and information. This lead to an often
          heated debate about the virtues of a published work. And because it was
          published to the public at large (more folks then were reading the
          science journals and what not, then are today (no radio, no tv)), the
          debate was also public. Reputations could be made an lost. So authors
          took a very authoritarian point of view. Because to admit that you
          didn't know some piece of information was percieved as a weakness, that
          would be jumped all over.

          While our academic community can be just as cut throat at times. The
          review process happens more before a work is published at large. And
          because few people read the journals, there is actually not as much
          riding on the line. It is actually possible to say you don't know
          something. And it is also possible and better thought of to suggest
          possibilities, rather then try to claim an absolute. It is a very
          different environment, with only slight tendency to back slide into
          Victorian thought patterns :)

          Njall
        • Nest verch Tangwistel
          John and Carol Atkins wrote: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/photos/view/bdb9?b=5
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
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            John and Carol Atkins <cogworks@...> wrote: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/photos/view/bdb9?b=5
            http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/PLATE25DX.HTML

            The first link is to a picture in the photo section of this list.
            Clearly the subject in this link matches the subject in the second
            link. However, the first link titles the subject as a German hip
            quiver, and the second link titles the picture Italian. I have found
            another link on-line, which I can not currently relocate, on how to
            make this quiver and titles it an Italian quiver. Not that it truly
            matters, but is this quiver/character Italian or German? (My version
            of this quiver is posted in the photos section of this list under cog
            photos.)

            cog




            .


            I posted the picture in the photos section. At the time I thought this was a great portrait of a German quiver. However now that I have looked into the whole quiver issue much more, I would have to say that quiver and bow are much more along the lines of an Eastern piece, possibly Russian, Mongol or Persian. they all were heavily influenced by the Mongol influence by that time and show similar design in their quivers.

            The following link shows a quiver from 1627, slightly out of period, which is kept in the Kirov Regional Art V.M. and A.M. Vasnetsovs Museum.

            http://www.kreml.ru/en/main/exhibition/Russian/?ID=122

            You can find lots of pictures of these kinds of quivers in the Persian miniature illuminated manuscripts of the 16th Century. That shape seems to have been common in the East.

            I can't find the info on the original picture. It was probably the painters national origin that made me think German.

            So to recap. At this point I would not use that picture to show a German or Italian quiver. And I certainly would not use the other picture. Braun and Schneider are notorious for their slightly incorrect redraws.

            This is a link to a picture by Hans Memling. Sixth picture down shows what is probably more appropriate for German. The tube quiver seems much more common in Europe in this period.
            http://www.kfki.hu/~/arthp/html/m/memling/2middle1/index.html

            i hope this helps a little.

            Nest


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          • Nest verch Tangwistel
            John and Carol Atkins wrote: Oh here it is. The painting is by Vittore Carpaccio in his Stories from the life of St Ursula Definitely
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
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              John and Carol Atkins <cogworks@...> wrote:

              Oh here it is. The painting is by Vittore Carpaccio in his "Stories from the life of St Ursula"

              Definitely Italian. I have no idea what made me think it was German. Anyway I hold with my earlier theory. The quiver is more eastern than European.

              Nest


              ---------------------------------
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            • Dallas Perry
              Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany belonged to the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of a
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 13, 2007
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                Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany belonged to
                the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of
                a stretch that a design for something as simple in function as a quiver, and
                indeed many other items would be similar in both areas.



                Albrecht von Reith



                -----Original Message-----
                From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Fritz
                Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:15 AM
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] question for the list



                When John and Carol Atkins put fingers to keys it was 2/13/07 9:45 AM...

                > http://ph.groups
                <http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/photos/view/bdb9?b=5>
                yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/photos/view/bdb9?b=5
                > http://www.siue <http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/PLATE25DX.HTML>
                edu/COSTUMES/PLATE25DX.HTML
                >
                > The first link is to a picture in the photo section of this list.
                > Clearly the subject in this link matches the subject in the second
                > link. However, the first link titles the subject as a German hip
                > quiver, and the second link titles the picture Italian. ...

                The second source is tertiary at best. It is probably another fine
                example of what is wrong with most Victorian 'references'. The artist
                pretty clearly ripped off the first image, slightly altering the body
                proportions and stance, clothing details, and quiver design according to
                personal taste, author's directive, or inability to copy accurately.

                The SCA has been described as a bunch of 20th century people trying to
                re-enact a 19th century idea of what the Middle Ages really _should_
                have been about. While largely true, I'm not sure it's a complement.

                If there is a Victorian-era source for information about the middle-ages
                that is accurate. I don't know about it. Victorian sources tell you more
                about the aesthetics of _that_ age than they do about any other.

                I would go with "German".

                --
                Fritz
                Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kinjal of Moravia
                ... wrote: ... belonged to the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of a stretch that a design for something as simple in
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 14, 2007
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                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Dallas Perry" <dallasperry@...>
                  wrote:>
                  > Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany
                  belonged to the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it
                  would not be too far of a stretch that a design for something as
                  simple in function as a quiver, and indeed many other items would be
                  similar in both areas.
                  > >
                  > Albrecht von Reith
                  >
                  > ........................................................

                  no stretch at all .. already documented in the archives here and
                  Combat Archery are:

                  travelers on the Varengian River routes (Black Sea to Baltic)
                  selected weapons and clothing from many cultures -- whatever worked,
                  e.g. the Cossack Kama blade is a cross between a Turkic semitar and
                  Roman short sword. My 'banded-mail' vest is based on Chinese armor
                  found in a 11th century German burial mound.

                  all Carolingian soldiers had to carry three arrows to support
                  archers -- so 'any' method of carrying arrows is period.

                  the archery 'windsock' (Draco) is Alani in origin and found in many
                  cultures including England.

                  For me, the only 'strange' view of weapons, armor and clothing is
                  the assumption by some that anything was unique to a particular
                  culture. It is more than 'creative minds think alike' -- travel and
                  trade were far more extensive that documented in common history
                  books that only deal with nobility, religion and war.

                  kinjal
                  >
                  >
                • blkknighti@aol.com
                  Very true. other things to consider. The event depicted is in Germany (Cologne) The Artist is Italian painting in the Italian school. the clothing looks pretty
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 14, 2007
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                    Very true. other things to consider.
                    The event depicted is in Germany (Cologne)
                    The Artist is Italian painting in the Italian school.
                    the clothing looks pretty Italian
                    the bow is hunnish and (someone said the quiver appears more eastern, I
                    agree, and so too the bow) the quiver appears more eastern.
                    The prince depicted in the painting as the story goes had the Huns kill her
                    companions. Which may explain the Hunnish bow and quiver

                      St. Ursula (and the 11 thousand virgins) was a daughter of a British
                    Christian king betrothed to a pagan prince. She wished to preserve her virginity and
                    said to her father that she could accept the marriage on condition that the
                    prince's father gave her ten most noble virgins, each with a thousand virgins
                    in her service, and would be allowed three years to consider. The virgins
                    embarked a ship; after sea passage, they went up the Rhine as far as Colonge, later
                    sailed on to Basel, after pilgrimage to Rome, where rhey met the Pope, they
                    returned to Colonge. The frustrated Ursula's fiancé fired an arrow at her,
                    which pierced her breast. Her companions were put to the sword by a king of the
                    Huns.

                    My rough conclusion. The bow and quiver in the picture is Hunnish. (the
                    artist seems to have done some homework)
                    I ahve found another painting depicting the incident by Hans Memling which
                    has the Prince in full Armor and using a longbow. Dress is more of the english
                    style.
                    Hope this perspective helps.
                    Richard

                    In a message dated 2/13/07 8:31:15 PM, dallasperry@... writes:


                    > Something to consider: Most of what is today Italy and Germany belonged to
                    > the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and it would not be too far of
                    > a stretch that a design for something as simple in function as a quiver, and
                    > indeed many other items would be similar in both areas.
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Carolus
                    This is another example of my position that the SCA is more a Victorian recreation society than a truly medieval one. In our presentations it is more common
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 17, 2007
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                      This is another example of my position that the SCA is more a
                      Victorian recreation society than a truly medieval one. In our
                      presentations it is more common to find the Victorian position of
                      claiming to have all the answers and being positive in all knowledge
                      when we are not up to date on the current research, do not have all
                      the answers (maybe even the leading edge professionals don't have
                      them yet), and even make up facts with assumptions to fill voids than
                      it is to see a presentation expressing the current state of knowledge
                      and admitting what we are filling in for lack of knowledge. The
                      historical and archaeological records are mute on many details about
                      the equipment we use so we have to fill in with what we do know. For
                      example, we do not really know how common built up rests were on long
                      bows so we assume it was most common to shoot off the hand. A
                      reasonable assumption but not absolute. Read Jim Bradbury' s "The
                      Medieval Siege" for how a professional handles missing data.
                      Carolus

                      At 09:20 AM 2/13/2007, you wrote:

                      >It's important to understand the background behind any source material.
                      >The academic world of the Victorians was very different then ours, for
                      >all that the Victorians wanted to be seen as an age of enlightenment. In
                      >part that difference comes about from the speed of information exchange.
                      >Publish or perrish has always been a part of academic life. And in
                      >Victorian times, academic review often only came after publication due
                      >to the slow exchange of ideas and information. This lead to an often
                      >heated debate about the virtues of a published work. And because it was
                      >published to the public at large (more folks then were reading the
                      >science journals and what not, then are today (no radio, no tv)), the
                      >debate was also public. Reputations could be made an lost. So authors
                      >took a very authoritarian point of view. Because to admit that you
                      >didn't know some piece of information was percieved as a weakness, that
                      >would be jumped all over.
                      >
                      >While our academic community can be just as cut throat at times. The
                      >review process happens more before a work is published at large. And
                      >because few people read the journals, there is actually not as much
                      >riding on the line. It is actually possible to say you don't know
                      >something. And it is also possible and better thought of to suggest
                      >possibilities, rather then try to claim an absolute. It is a very
                      >different environment, with only slight tendency to back slide into
                      >Victorian thought patterns :)
                      >
                      >Njall


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