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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Saunders mats

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  • LD.BLACKMOON
    greetings i normally just lurk and learn , but , thought i would add my 2pennies worth on this. i too had the problem described , although i never did as much
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 23, 2006
      greetings

      i normally just lurk and learn , but , thought i would add my 2pennies worth on this.

      i too had the problem described , although i never did as much prep as was described.

      until it was pointed out that the hot melt glue was already hardening inside my cold oily point ,
      so now i use a small propane torch, needle nose pliers , and running water to set my tips.
      now , even in northern ansteorra , where you may have 10 deg - wind chill one day , and 110 degree heat the next , and pouring rain, or roasting drought , my tips stay on much better , both in foam and saunders .

      i light the torch ,pick up point with pliers in left hand , stick in fire, while moving it around , until it stops smoking ,then keeping it close to , but not in fire . then with right hand i bring feral tite stick close enough to flame to start melting glue, ( 3 drops is normally enough) drip glue into hot point , then set glue in safe location , grab pre tapered shaft , and twist into point.
      while applying pressure , run pliers, point, and shaft under running cold water , until it stops sizzling . repeat process . ( if you don't apply pressure while cooling , the glue can push the point off the shaft . )

      extra note : if you leave the point in the fire after adding glue , you can " burn " the glue.
      if this happens , it wont stick any better than if it was cold and oily .

      anyway , just another point of view .

      be safe, be happy, have fun
      arthur blackmoon

      love is a fire that burns inside , may it keep you all warm this holiday season !!!

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Cian of Storvik
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 4:57 PM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Saunders mats


      I also believe it is possibly your technique or the points being too
      large for the shaft (A larger then necessary point will leave a
      large shoulder that gets snagged on the indian grass).
      I don't do anywhere near the prep work you are doing, and I rarely
      loose a point (except when it the point is lodged deeply in a metal
      or wood target stand). I simply shave the taper and glue with the
      following technique.

      I like fletch-tite for fletching, but I wouldn't use it to hold tips
      on. The trick with Boning's ferr-L-tite is to heat up your points
      over an open flame (use a candle, oil burner, or butane torch). Use
      a pair of needle nose pliars to hold the point over the flame. Heat
      it thoroughly for 30-40 seconds directly in the flame. Set the point
      down on a block of wood (one that you don't mind getting scortched).
      Melt the end of the stick of ferr-L-tite and whipe it on the
      tappered end of the shaft. Immediately, use the pliars to pick-up
      the still-hot steel or brass point, and jamb the arrow shaft into
      it. You should have enough glue on the tip that it gushes out of the
      edges.

      If you are in the practice of whiping the melted glue onto the
      shaft, and jambing it into a cold target point, it is most-likely
      setting-up as it touches the cold metal and not making a good seal
      between the metal and wood. Also not allowing you to jamb the shaft
      in as far as it should go.

      I forget the name of it, but there is also a foaming glue you can
      buy that requires no heat. You put a couple of drops in the arrow
      point and jamb the shaft in. It's basically the samething as Gorilla
      Glue (but comes in a smaller container and costs 2 times what
      Gorilla Glue costs). The advantage of the boning glue stick is that
      it sets as soon as it cools (within 5 minutes). Using foaming glue,
      you have to wait a few hours before you can use your arrow.

      -Cian





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Carolus
      I use this same technique and seldom lose points (only after several years and MUCH abuse, if then). Saunders mats are the kindest I ve found to points,
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 23, 2006
        I use this same technique and seldom lose points (only after several
        years and MUCH abuse, if then). Saunders mats are the kindest I've
        found to points, usually leaving them in place when other backings
        pull them off. Proper preparation is always the cure for loss of points.
        Carolus

        At 02:57 PM 12/23/2006, you wrote:

        >I also believe it is possibly your technique or the points being too
        >large for the shaft (A larger then necessary point will leave a
        >large shoulder that gets snagged on the indian grass).
        >I don't do anywhere near the prep work you are doing, and I rarely
        >loose a point (except when it the point is lodged deeply in a metal
        >or wood target stand). I simply shave the taper and glue with the
        >following technique.
        >
        >I like fletch-tite for fletching, but I wouldn't use it to hold tips
        >on. The trick with Boning's ferr-L-tite is to heat up your points
        >over an open flame (use a candle, oil burner, or butane torch). Use
        >a pair of needle nose pliars to hold the point over the flame. Heat
        >it thoroughly for 30-40 seconds directly in the flame. Set the point
        >down on a block of wood (one that you don't mind getting scortched).
        >Melt the end of the stick of ferr-L-tite and whipe it on the
        >tappered end of the shaft. Immediately, use the pliars to pick-up
        >the still-hot steel or brass point, and jamb the arrow shaft into
        >it. You should have enough glue on the tip that it gushes out of the
        >edges.
        >
        >If you are in the practice of whiping the melted glue onto the
        >shaft, and jambing it into a cold target point, it is most-likely
        >setting-up as it touches the cold metal and not making a good seal
        >between the metal and wood. Also not allowing you to jamb the shaft
        >in as far as it should go.
        >
        >I forget the name of it, but there is also a foaming glue you can
        >buy that requires no heat. You put a couple of drops in the arrow
        >point and jamb the shaft in. It's basically the samething as Gorilla
        >Glue (but comes in a smaller container and costs 2 times what
        >Gorilla Glue costs). The advantage of the boning glue stick is that
        >it sets as soon as it cools (within 5 minutes). Using foaming glue,
        >you have to wait a few hours before you can use your arrow.
        >
        >-Cian


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      • Frederick Fenters
        Based on the original complaint and my own experience, it sounds like there is some sort of problem with the points themselves. I know that I am repeating
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 24, 2006
          Based on the original complaint and my own experience, it sounds like there
          is some sort of problem with the points themselves. I know that I am
          repeating what many others have said. What kind of taper tool are you
          using? Are you using the same taper for points and nocks? If so, your
          taper is probably wrong and the points do not have enough contact to grip
          properly.



          You may also be "over preparing" your shaft/point area. I would burr either
          the shaft or the inside of the point, not both. Acetone works well for
          taking off the oil inside the points, so does denatured alcohol or lacquer
          thinner. Make sure to give them time to dry thoroughly. You can overheat
          ferr-l-tite, but you have to work at it. There is a fellow here in Michigan
          who went exclusively to brass points from 3 Rivers Archery because they will
          deform when they hit metal or rocks and not break as many shafts. I did the
          same thing, but use the screw on "German" brass points. In over 3 years, I
          have lost less than 12 points. Not too shabby.



          Waxing your arrows is a really good idea, too. In fact, I have gone so far
          as to use paste wax furniture polish as my shaft sealer on my personal
          arrows any more. It gives a nice finish, seals well, allows me to use any
          stain I wish, and is easily renewed when things start getting sticky or
          scratched up.



          I hope all these comments come across as helpful and not sniping. I know
          most of the people who have responded, at least from the list, and they are
          some of the most knowledgeable and helpful people I have ever been
          associated with.



          Padraig MacRaighne



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
          When shooting into stacked and compressed carpet, I lost more tips than I could count. That was when I first started out and was buying store bought arrows. I
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 24, 2006
            When shooting into stacked and compressed carpet, I lost more tips than I could
            count. That was when I first started out and was buying store bought arrows. I
            started making my own, and lost more. Necessity fine tuned my methods. Now, I
            can't remember the last time I lost a tip, no matter what I shoot into.

            I don't know if this will help you or anybody else, but I'll summarize my method.

            Tip preparation:
            Take a Q-tip and dip it in rubbing alchohol. Clean the inside of the tip, as
            there is machining oil residue and particles.

            Shaft preparation:
            A very smooth taper surface, is not necessarily the best. Rough it up just bit. I
            do it by not changing my blades on my tru-taper often enough ;)
            Apply your hot melt (I use Bohning), liberally to the tapered tip, coating all
            the contact surface.

            Finish:
            Heat the tip, placing the tip on the shaft: while holding the tip on with
            something like pliers, place the shaft tip first, onto a hard surface (I use an
            aluminum block) and press down hard for 5-7 seconds. This will cause the hot-melt
            to squeeze out and possibly run down the tip... that's okay. This step allows the
            shaft to "outgas" a little more, and not push the tip off.

            Right after the 5-7 second press, place the shaft down on table surface covered
            with a single sheet of paper. Pull the shaft towards you, such as to wipe the
            excess hot-melt off, but also rotate the shaft (top away from you) as you pull
            the shaft towards you. This wipes all the excess off, plus fills the area between
            the bottom of the tip and the shaft.

            Immediately place in cold water.

            Now then the whole process from "Finish:" on, only takes about 15 seconds.

            It has worked for me very well.

            You want to stay away from adhesives that "setup" hard (cyanoacrylates and
            epoxies)to glue your tip on. This makes the adhesion boundary brittle. Hot melt
            adds some "cushioning" to that layer, giving the arrow the ability to hit a
            target, without breaking that hard brittle contact area.

            Now then, having your tip come off in your target, was very period ;)

            Godwin
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