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Re: [SCA-Archery] Was wood arrows

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  • Richard Yeager
    I have found the local bow shops that I have been to quite UNhelpful when it comes to traditional bows. None of the staff seemed particularly knowledgable or
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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      I have found the local bow shops that I have been to
      quite UNhelpful when it comes to traditional bows.
      None of the staff seemed particularly knowledgable or
      helpful. Their knowledge of compounds and the like
      seemed fine but their understanding of traditional
      bows was frighteningly bad. Has anyone else had that
      experience?

      Cuan mac Niall

      --- lewindepartone@... wrote:

      > Ive talked to several bow shops in the area cause my
      > son wanted to do this
      > and I told him i didn't think it was a smart idea so
      > i took him around. went
      > to three shops and they all stated clearly that you
      > should not shoot them
      > from compound bows. something about the different
      > type of kentic energy from a
      > compound versus a trad bow
      >
      >
      >
      > _Re: (no subject) _
      >
      (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/message/21797;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdHRncHNzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzI1OTUzMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3Njc1MD
      >
      MEbXNnSWQDMjE3OTcEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE2MzQzMjEwMw--)
      >
      > Posted by: "Rj Bachner" _ragiwarmbear@... _
      >
      > (mailto:ragiwarmbear@...?Subject=
      > Re:%20(no%20subject)) _ragiwarmbear _
      > (http://profiles.yahoo.com/ragiwarmbear)
      > Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:34 pm (PST)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Heya
      >
      > Aside from the mess that is this poste, why do you
      > say that wood should
      > never be shot from a compound? (And all caps is
      > considered shouting, so why
      > did you have to shout it out? ;) )
      >
      > Properly spined arrows will shoot just fine from a
      > compound. I have heard
      > this Urban Myth repeated many times and it has
      > always kinda boggled me. I
      > have shot woodies from a compound many times. I do
      > not now have one as I am
      > more into primitive archery but in past days.... Ahh
      > past days. I figgure it
      > is something made up by that Easton guy to sell more
      > aluminum arrows.
      >
      > If someone feels compelled to holler out something
      > like this please explain
      > why you feel this way? It makes it easier for grumpy
      > old knowitalls like me
      > to make condescending comments. ;)
      >
      > Ragi
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >




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    • Nest verch Tangwistel
      Honestly, that sounds like an explanation from someone who thinks its a bad idea, and has had to come up with some fancy sounding jargon to prove it because
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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        Honestly, that sounds like an explanation from someone who thinks its a bad idea, and has had to come up with some fancy sounding jargon to prove it because they don't really have any supporting evidence. Kinetic energy is the term for energy in motion (as opposed to potential energy which is stored energy). The nature of its intrinsic value is not going to change because of the vehicle which produced it.

        I don't especially think it is a good idea to shoot wood off compounds either, but for a totally different reason. There is no reason you can't do it, but why would you want to? compound bows are very advanced shooting machines which use very modern techniques to give the shooter every advantage. Wooden arrow by their nature do not have the precision tolerances of the carbon and aluminum arrow usually shot from the compound. They just aren't matched as well because they are made of wood that varies according to growth differences. If you are shooting the ultra modern equipment why not use the ultra modern ammunition for it?

        Nest

        lewindepartone@... wrote:
        Ive talked to several bow shops in the area cause my son wanted to do this
        and I told him i didn't think it was a smart idea so i took him around. went
        to three shops and they all stated clearly that you should not shoot them
        from compound bows. something about the different type of kentic energy from a
        compound versus a trad bow






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      • Fritz
        When lewindepartone@aol.com put fingers to keys it was 11/13/06 3:43 PM... ... Hmmm... Seems to me: A compound actually delivers its energy more gradually than
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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          When lewindepartone@... put fingers to keys it was 11/13/06 3:43
          PM...

          > Ive talked to several bow shops in the area cause my son wanted to do this
          > and I told him i didn't think it was a smart idea so i took him around. went
          > to three shops and they all stated clearly that you should not shoot them
          > from compound bows. something about the different type of kentic energy from a
          > compound versus a trad bow

          Hmmm...
          Seems to me:
          A compound actually delivers its energy more gradually than the
          traditional bow. If your arrows will stand up to the sudden ooompph of a
          longbow, they'll be fine out of a compound of similar power. Spine
          issues are different I bet, but that's mostly obviated by the
          center-shot-ness of the compound.

          I still don't see the problem, but then, you should see some of the
          stuff I have no problem shooting.

          Someone with more experience with compounds, back me up or straighten me
          out, eh?

          --
          Fritz
          Aut invenian viam aut faciam.
        • Rj Bachner
          Hmmm a different type of kinetic energy? I did not know there was such a thing. ;) My friend I would have to say that the real problem here is that old urban
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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            Hmmm a different type of kinetic energy? I did not know there was such a
            thing. ;) My friend I would have to say that the real problem here is that
            old urban myth and uneducated nitwits working at so called pro shops.
            Specially ones that don't deal with Trad gear.

            Wood is just as strong as Aluminum or carbon in this case and seeing as the
            arrowshaft is driven forward directly in line with the axis of the arrow, it
            should make no difference as to what the shaft is made of as long as it is
            spined correctly for the bow. If compounds were not center shot then I might
            be tempted to agree with you in some cases but they are very exactly
            centershot.

            Don't forget pro shops are about selling thier product and trad stuff is
            seldom what they get requests for so they have no understanding of it.

            My suggestion is sell the compound and go with a nice longbow. ;)

            I also suggest such web sites as www.tradgang.com and
            http://www.outdoorcore.com/forums/ and
            the leatherwall http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/THREADSx2.CFM

            Loads of info there. Outdoor core will be the best place to ask about wood
            arrows on a compound. Tell em Ragi sent you.


            ragi

            -----Original Message-----
            From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of lewindepartone@...
            Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 3:43 PM
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: (no subject)

            Ive talked to several bow shops in the area cause my son wanted to do this
            and I told him i didn't think it was a smart idea so i took him around.
            went
            to three shops and they all stated clearly that you should not shoot them
            from compound bows. something about the different type of kentic energy
            from a
            compound versus a trad bow



            _Re: (no subject) _
            (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/message/21797;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdHRncH
            NzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzI1OTUzMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3Njc1MD
            MEbXNnSWQDMjE3OTcEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE2MzQzMjEwMw--)
            Posted by: "Rj Bachner" _ragiwarmbear@... _
            (mailto:ragiwarmbear@...?Subject= Re:%20(no%20subject))
            _ragiwarmbear _
            (http://profiles.yahoo.com/ragiwarmbear)
            Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:34 pm (PST)






            Heya

            Aside from the mess that is this poste, why do you say that wood should
            never be shot from a compound? (And all caps is considered shouting, so why
            did you have to shout it out? ;) )

            Properly spined arrows will shoot just fine from a compound. I have heard
            this Urban Myth repeated many times and it has always kinda boggled me. I
            have shot woodies from a compound many times. I do not now have one as I am
            more into primitive archery but in past days.... Ahh past days. I figgure
            it
            is something made up by that Easton guy to sell more aluminum arrows.

            If someone feels compelled to holler out something like this please explain
            why you feel this way? It makes it easier for grumpy old knowitalls like me
            to make condescending comments. ;)

            Ragi



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Lawrence
            Hey ya Ragi! and Arthur! Yes most shops just arent familiar with traditional bows....but that would of course depend on the owners experiences. Like Ragi said
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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              Hey ya Ragi! and Arthur! Yes most shops just arent familiar with
              traditional bows....but that would of course depend on the owners
              experiences. Like Ragi said Trad Gang is an excellent site for
              information on traditional bows!!!

              As for wood arrows.....as long as they are spined "correctly" they
              are fine for any bow! The problem is that most people dont understand
              about spining and will shoot very light weight spined arrows out of a
              compound and have the arrow blow up on them......of course this can
              also happen if you use a very heavy poundage longbow or recurve and
              light spined shafts.

              Lawrence

              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Fritz <carl.west@...> wrote:
              >
              > When lewindepartone@... put fingers to keys it was 11/13/06 3:43
              > PM...
              >
              > > Ive talked to several bow shops in the area cause my son wanted
              to do this
              > > and I told him i didn't think it was a smart idea so i took him
              around. went
              > > to three shops and they all stated clearly that you should not
              shoot them
              > > from compound bows. something about the different type of kentic
              energy from a
              > > compound versus a trad bow
              >
              > Hmmm...
              > Seems to me:
              > A compound actually delivers its energy more gradually than the
              > traditional bow. If your arrows will stand up to the sudden ooompph
              of a
              > longbow, they'll be fine out of a compound of similar power. Spine
              > issues are different I bet, but that's mostly obviated by the
              > center-shot-ness of the compound.
              >
              > I still don't see the problem, but then, you should see some of the
              > stuff I have no problem shooting.
              >
              > Someone with more experience with compounds, back me up or
              straighten me
              > out, eh?
              >
              > --
              > Fritz
              > Aut invenian viam aut faciam.
              >
            • Rj Bachner
              That s a good point that never occurred to me. Why insult the spirit of the wood by shooting it out of some damned contraption? They make soulless arrows for
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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                That's a good point that never occurred to me. Why insult the spirit of the
                wood by shooting it out of some damned contraption? They make soulless
                arrows for just such a thing.

                Now I have to go ask forgiveness of my woodies for not thinking of their
                feelings. ;)

                Thanks for reminding me.

                Ragi

                -----Original Message-----
                From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Nest verch Tangwistel
                Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 4:20 PM
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: (no subject)

                Honestly, that sounds like an explanation from someone who thinks its a bad
                idea, and has had to come up with some fancy sounding jargon to prove it
                because they don't really have any supporting evidence. Kinetic energy is
                the term for energy in motion (as opposed to potential energy which is
                stored energy). The nature of its intrinsic value is not going to change
                because of the vehicle which produced it.

                I don't especially think it is a good idea to shoot wood off compounds
                either, but for a totally different reason. There is no reason you can't do
                it, but why would you want to? compound bows are very advanced shooting
                machines which use very modern techniques to give the shooter every
                advantage. Wooden arrow by their nature do not have the precision tolerances
                of the carbon and aluminum arrow usually shot from the compound. They just
                aren't matched as well because they are made of wood that varies according
                to growth differences. If you are shooting the ultra modern equipment why
                not use the ultra modern ammunition for it?

                Nest

                lewindepartone@... wrote:
                Ive talked to several bow shops in the area cause my son wanted to
                do this
                and I told him i didn't think it was a smart idea so i took him around. went

                to three shops and they all stated clearly that you should not shoot them
                from compound bows. something about the different type of kentic energy from
                a
                compound versus a trad bow






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              • Richard Yeager
                What? You don t want to shoot a bow with training wheels???? Rj Bachner wrote: That s a good point that never occurred to
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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                  What? You don't want to shoot a bow with training wheels????

                  Rj Bachner <ragiwarmbear@...> wrote: That's a good point that never occurred to me. Why insult the spirit of the
                  wood by shooting it out of some damned contraption? They make soulless
                  arrows for just such a thing.

                  Now I have to go ask forgiveness of my woodies for not thinking of their
                  feelings. ;)

                  Thanks for reminding me.

                  Ragi

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Nest verch Tangwistel
                  Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 4:20 PM
                  To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: (no subject)

                  Honestly, that sounds like an explanation from someone who thinks its a bad
                  idea, and has had to come up with some fancy sounding jargon to prove it
                  because they don't really have any supporting evidence. Kinetic energy is
                  the term for energy in motion (as opposed to potential energy which is
                  stored energy). The nature of its intrinsic value is not going to change
                  because of the vehicle which produced it.

                  I don't especially think it is a good idea to shoot wood off compounds
                  either, but for a totally different reason. There is no reason you can't do
                  it, but why would you want to? compound bows are very advanced shooting
                  machines which use very modern techniques to give the shooter every
                  advantage. Wooden arrow by their nature do not have the precision tolerances
                  of the carbon and aluminum arrow usually shot from the compound. They just
                  aren't matched as well because they are made of wood that varies according
                  to growth differences. If you are shooting the ultra modern equipment why
                  not use the ultra modern ammunition for it?

                  Nest

                  lewindepartone@... wrote:
                  Ive talked to several bow shops in the area cause my son wanted to
                  do this
                  and I told him i didn't think it was a smart idea so i took him around. went

                  to three shops and they all stated clearly that you should not shoot them
                  from compound bows. something about the different type of kentic energy from
                  a
                  compound versus a trad bow

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                • Rj Bachner
                  Why would I need training wheels I have been shooting real bows for years. Thems is for kids and noobs. ragi ... From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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                    Why would I need training wheels I have been shooting real bows for years.
                    Thems is for kids and noobs.

                    ragi

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Richard Yeager
                    Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 6:38 PM
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Re: (no subject)

                    What? You don't want to shoot a bow with training wheels????

                    Rj Bachner <ragiwarmbear@...> wrote: That's a good point
                    that never occurred to me. Why insult the spirit of the
                    wood by shooting it out of some damned contraption? They make soulless
                    arrows for just such a thing.

                    Now I have to go ask forgiveness of my woodies for not thinking of their
                    feelings. ;)

                    Thanks for reminding me.

                    Ragi

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Nest verch Tangwistel
                    Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 4:20 PM
                    To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: (no subject)

                    Honestly, that sounds like an explanation from someone who thinks its a bad
                    idea, and has had to come up with some fancy sounding jargon to prove it
                    because they don't really have any supporting evidence. Kinetic energy is
                    the term for energy in motion (as opposed to potential energy which is
                    stored energy). The nature of its intrinsic value is not going to change
                    because of the vehicle which produced it.

                    I don't especially think it is a good idea to shoot wood off compounds
                    either, but for a totally different reason. There is no reason you can't do
                    it, but why would you want to? compound bows are very advanced shooting
                    machines which use very modern techniques to give the shooter every
                    advantage. Wooden arrow by their nature do not have the precision tolerances
                    of the carbon and aluminum arrow usually shot from the compound. They just
                    aren't matched as well because they are made of wood that varies according
                    to growth differences. If you are shooting the ultra modern equipment why
                    not use the ultra modern ammunition for it?

                    Nest

                    lewindepartone@... wrote:
                    Ive talked to several bow shops in the area cause my son wanted to
                    do this
                    and I told him i didn't think it was a smart idea so i took him around. went

                    to three shops and they all stated clearly that you should not shoot them
                    from compound bows. something about the different type of kentic energy from
                    a
                    compound versus a trad bow

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                  • James Koch
                    ... I tend to agree. Many of the archery shops I have frequented over the past 36 years have been one or two man operations. Usually owned and run by some
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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                      >Hey ya Ragi! and Arthur! Yes most shops just arent familiar with
                      >traditional bows....but that would of course depend on the owners
                      >experiences. Like Ragi said Trad Gang is an excellent site for
                      >information on traditional bows!!!
                      I tend to agree. Many of the archery shops I have frequented over the past
                      36 years have been one or two man operations. Usually owned and run by
                      some retired mechanic and one of his hunting buddies. For this reason
                      their experience and prejudices reflect their experience. Here in Ohio we
                      currently have three types of archery shops. Compound bow hunter staffed
                      shops are still the most common. Take a crossbow to one and you get the
                      evil eye. Then there are the crossbow hunter staffed shops. Take a
                      traditional bow to one and you get a look of disbelief. The worst are the
                      big box "Gander Mountain" type sporting goods stores. They do some limited
                      repairs on the equipment they sell. Mostly just replacing worn cables on
                      compound bows. Otherwise they are pretty generally ignorant of the sport
                      of archery.
                      >
                      Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                    • Bob Lauderdale
                      If anything, on a pound-for-pound basis compound bows should be less stressful to wooden arrows than recurves or longbows. In a longbow, all of the bow s
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 13, 2006
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                        If anything, on a pound-for-pound basis compound bows should be less
                        stressful to wooden arrows than recurves or longbows. In a longbow,
                        all of the bow's energy is imparted to the arrow in one pulse, while
                        in a recurve the energy is imparted over a longer period as the two
                        sets of curves release their energy sequentially. A wooden arrow
                        from a recurve can therefore be a little less stiff than a longbow
                        arrow and still be as accurate.

                        Since a compound bow uses cams, the energy imparted is done in a
                        smooth, continuous fashion over a longer period than a recurve, and
                        therefore should show the same advantage over the recurve that the
                        recurve has over the longbow.

                        hidiock
                      • Suzanne
                        I can t of course speak to all Gander Mountain shops but there is a very knowledgeable and all around great guy that works at what would be my local Gander
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 14, 2006
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                          I can't of course speak to all "Gander Mountain" shops but there is a
                          very knowledgeable and all around great guy that works at what would be
                          my local Gander Mountain. He has been shooting traditional archery
                          since probably before I was born. I know that he has been making cedar
                          arrows for at least that long because we have had that conversation. He
                          also makes his own longbows. He is a very talented artist. I've always
                          known it but this only confirms that my "Gander Mountain" is lucky to
                          have him.

                          Esperanza (who was up until now only lurking on the list)
                        • Hobbe
                          It seems I am lucky to have archery shop nearby where the owner is into traditional bows. He has customers who range from Olympic shooters to hunters with
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 15, 2006
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                            It seems I am lucky to have archery shop nearby where the owner is into
                            traditional bows. He has customers who range from Olympic shooters to
                            hunters with longbows. He stocks cedar shafts and arrow making supplies
                            and also has a few throwing axes. Until I set foot into his shop, he
                            had never heard of the SCA, but was amazed to hear about what we do.

                            He doesn't have an internet presence, but if you are in the Albany area
                            of NY, look up Lemme's Archery, 1702 Central Ave. Colonie, NY (518) 869-
                            5363. Mario will talk your ear off about any archery topic you wish to
                            discuss.

                            -Hobbe
                          • Frederick Fenters
                            I am lucky, too. It s only about an hour drive to get to Three Rivers Archery from my home. We usually stop off on our way to Sternfeld (Middle Kingdom) for
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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                              I am lucky, too. It's only about an hour drive to get to Three Rivers
                              Archery from my home. We usually stop off on our way to Sternfeld (Middle
                              Kingdom) for Better War Through Archery. Three or four of us carpool from
                              Michigan to Indy.



                              BTW, for you hunters, Deer Season opened here in Michigan yesterday. I hear
                              they are expecting to harvest almost 300,000 deer in the next two weeks. I
                              saw 4 successful hunters yesterday while out making my rounds.



                              Padraig



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