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Re: [SCA-Archery] Into the fray

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  • John edgerton
    Thank you Kinjal. That is the idea I am looking for in a motto. Jon On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 03:40 AM, Kinjal of Moravia wrote: misc deleted ...
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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      Thank you Kinjal. That is the idea I am looking for in a motto.

      Jon

      On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 03:40 AM, Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
      misc deleted

      > However, each weapon form and attendant style and skill should be
      > secondary (within SCA) to the `heart of the archer' as opposed to
      > the `close combat' alternatives. I believe that every effort with
      > coins or any future projects should be designed to attract SCAdians
      > to archery and to recognize prowess, and have fun. Anything that
      > even appears as division or split purpose should be avoided. Get
      > the Royals to the range to participate --- whether they use bow,
      > crossbow, or throw rocks is secondary.
      >
      > Kinjal


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
      Marcus offered, Although there is room for arguement, I have the perspective that Archors are for Artillery (i.e. Raining Death) and Crossbowmen are more for
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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        Marcus offered,
        "Although there is room for arguement, I have the perspective that
        Archors are for Artillery (i.e. Raining Death) and Crossbowmen are
        more for direct fire (i.e. Sniping). Crossbow bolts tend to shoot
        straighter and penetrate better than arrows. So coming up with a motto that
        implies these Crossbow traits would be better suited in my mind."


        I would have to disagree in part here.

        There needs to be a motto that incorporates the main use of ranging
        weapons, of the small missle variety.

        The handbow is far from being relegated to "mortar fire", in the hands
        of someone trained to use it. I am concerned that there appears to be
        more and more people "poo-poo" the weapons true ability....but that is
        another topic. ;)

        For an archery coin, we need to look for incorporation, and not division.

        Jon, did you ask about language? I can't remember..... was the motto
        going to be in Latin?......
        or Welsh... ;)

        Godwin
      • John edgerton
        In English, so it will be understandable without need for translation. If in Welsh, then even the Welsh could not understand it. ;-) Although I did read that
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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          In English, so it will be understandable without need for translation.

          If in Welsh, then even the Welsh could not understand it. ;-)
          Although I did read that they are trying to reintroduce the language.

          Jon
          On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Godwin FitzGilbert de
          Strigoil wrote:
          >

          Misc deleted

          > For an archery coin, we need to look for incorporation, and not
          > division.
          >
          > Jon, did you ask about language? I can't remember..... was the motto
          > going to be in Latin?......
          > or Welsh... ;)
          >
          > Godwin


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Laebeth Cúriel
          Actually, “south” Welsh has been experiencing a renaissance over the past few decades. North Welsh is still the first language learned by many in the,
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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            Actually, “south” Welsh has been experiencing a renaissance over the past
            few decades. North Welsh is still the first language learned by many in
            the, well, north, of course. English is taught in the schools, but the
            language remains well alive in the rural communities.



            Os treisiodd y gelyn fy ngwlad dan ei droed,
            Mae hen iaith y Cymry mor fyw ag erioed,
            Ni luddiwyd yr awen gan erchyll law brad,
            Na thelyn berseiniol fy ngwlad.



            Gwlad, Gwlad, pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad,
            Tra môr yn fur i'r bur hoff bau,
            O bydded i'r heniaith barhau.



            [rough English translation

            Though the enemy has trampled my country underfoot,
            The old language of the Welsh knows no retreat,
            The treacherous hand has not hindered the spirit Nor has it silenced the
            sweet harp of my land.



            Land! Land! I am true to my land!
            As long as the see serves as a wall for this pure, dear land
            May the language endure for ever.



            Y Ddraig Goch ddyrry cychwyn!



            Laebeth





            P.S. The popularity of JRR Tolkien’s Sindarin language, resulting from the
            success of the LotR movies, also gave Welsh a boost, as JRRT used Welsh as
            the structural basis for that common language of the Elves.





            ~dabcdabdcabcdabc~

            One Arrow



            Arrows@...

            www.1Arrow.net <http://www.1arrow.net/>



            _____

            From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of John edgerton
            Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 1:41 PM
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Into the fray



            In English, so it will be understandable without need for translation.

            If in Welsh, then even the Welsh could not understand it. ;-)
            Although I did read that they are trying to reintroduce the language.

            Jon
            On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Godwin FitzGilbert de
            Strigoil wrote:
            >

            Misc deleted

            > For an archery coin, we need to look for incorporation, and not
            > division.
            >
            > Jon, did you ask about language? I can't remember..... was the motto
            > going to be in Latin?......
            > or Welsh... ;)
            >
            > Godwin

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Laebeth Cúriel
            [BAD FINGERS! SENT THIS BEFORE I COULD TYPE THE TITLE OF THE VERSES.] Actually, “south” Welsh has been experiencing a renaissance over the past few
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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              [BAD FINGERS! SENT THIS BEFORE I COULD TYPE THE TITLE OF THE VERSES.]



              Actually, “south” Welsh has been experiencing a renaissance over the past
              few decades. North Welsh is still the first language learned by many in
              the, well, north, of course. English is taught in the schools, but the
              language remains well alive in the rural communities.



              This is the last verse and chorus from Hen ‘Wlad Fy Nhadau, the unofficial
              anthem of Wales (Land of my Fathers).



              Os treisiodd y gelyn fy ngwlad dan ei droed,
              Mae hen iaith y Cymry mor fyw ag erioed,
              Ni luddiwyd yr awen gan erchyll law brad,
              Na thelyn berseiniol fy ngwlad.



              Gwlad, Gwlad, pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad,
              Tra môr yn fur i'r bur hoff bau,
              O bydded i'r heniaith barhau.



              [rough English translation

              Though the enemy has trampled my country underfoot,
              The old language of the Welsh knows no retreat,
              The treacherous hand has not hindered the spirit

              Nor has it silenced the sweet harp of my land.



              Land! Land! I am true to my land!
              As long as the see serves as a wall for this pure, dear land
              May the language endure for ever.



              Y Ddraig Goch ddyrry cychwyn!



              Laebeth





              P.S. The popularity of JRR Tolkien’s Sindarin language, resulting from the
              success of the LotR movies, also gave Welsh a boost, as JRRT used Welsh as
              the structural basis for that common language of the Elves.





              ~dabcdabdcabcdabc~

              One Arrow



              Arrows@...

              www.1Arrow.net <http://www.1arrow.net/>



              _____

              From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of John edgerton
              Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 1:41 PM
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Into the fray



              In English, so it will be understandable without need for translation.

              If in Welsh, then even the Welsh could not understand it. ;-)
              Although I did read that they are trying to reintroduce the language.

              Jon
              On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Godwin FitzGilbert de
              Strigoil wrote:
              >

              Misc deleted

              > For an archery coin, we need to look for incorporation, and not
              > division.
              >
              > Jon, did you ask about language? I can't remember..... was the motto
              > going to be in Latin?......
              > or Welsh... ;)
              >
              > Godwin

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Luigi Kapaj
              Hmmm... Must make a few comments based of recent research. ... In Medieval Chinese armies, it was the exact opposite of this situation. Archers were highly
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 5, 2006
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                Hmmm... Must make a few comments based of recent research.

                > Marcus offered,
                > "Although there is room for arguement, I have the perspective
                > that Archors are for Artillery (i.e. Raining Death) and
                > Crossbowmen are more for direct fire (i.e. Sniping).
                > Crossbow bolts tend to shoot straighter and penetrate
                > better than arrows. So coming up with a motto that implies
                > these Crossbow traits would be better suited in my mind."

                In Medieval Chinese armies, it was the exact opposite of this situation.
                Archers were highly skilled and in training year round. Crossbows were used
                for feudal levies with little training as it took less time to get them to
                combat effectiveness. Rows of crossbowmen were used to attrition enemy lines
                while the more skilled archers used their bows to snipe any troops that were
                getting through the hail of bolts.


                > ...They did
                > not use siege tactics until learned from Europeans, and then
                > proved effective in using gleaned arrows of any length and strength.

                True, the Mongols did use arrow fire in both direct sniping and in an
                artillery like manner. Mongol troops were mobile and often used both these
                and other styles of archery fire in a single battle.

                But make no mistake about the effectiveness of siege weapons in the Mongol
                war machine. Mongols were laying siege to Chinese and Middle Eastern cities
                long before they even heard of Europe. They developed their own tactics and
                incorporated knowledge and technology whenever they could, even what little
                Europe had to offer. Mongols took the siege equipment and weapons they found
                along the way, enhanced them, and developed new tactical uses. Mongols
                invented the cannon. Mongols invented many open field uses of siege weapons
                that are still in use today including rolling barrages.

                Many tactics used in SCA battles are modern, not Medieval, except that some
                of them are derived from tacticians who studied Mongol warfare and gave them
                their own names: 3 prong attack, blitzkrieg...


                References:
                The Devil's Horsemen, by James Chambers
                Subotai the Valiant, by Richard A. Gabriel
                Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, by Jack Weatherford
                Chinese Archery, by Stephen Selby
                http://silverhorde.viahistoria.com/research/tactics.html



                -Puppy

                Gulugjab Tangghudai
                Khan of the Silver Horde

                http://www.NYCMongol.com
                * New expanded inventory *
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