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Into the fray

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  • Kinjal of Moravia
    Marcus offered, Although there is room for arguement, I have the perspective that Archors are for Artillery (i.e. Raining Death) and Crossbowmen are more for
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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      Marcus offered,
      "Although there is room for arguement, I have the perspective that
      Archors are for Artillery (i.e. Raining Death) and Crossbowmen are
      more for
      direct fire (i.e. Sniping). Crossbow bolts tend to shoot
      straighter and
      penetrate better than arrows. So coming up with a motto that
      implies these
      Crossbow traits would be better suited in my mind."

      Aye, but you seem to only look at a limited view of England and
      Central Europe.
      The Mongolian Horseman defeated these archers using any device in
      both `sniping' and `artillery. Killing another riding horseman at
      200 yards is certainly `direct fire'; while using a second bow
      to `rain death' from distances of 400 yards and more could provide
      effecting `containment' and `delaying' support (guess that is
      artillery too). They did not use siege tactics until learned from
      Europeans, and then proved effective in using gleaned arrows of any
      length and strength.

      Thus, in considering `le difference' – a hand-bow can be proved more
      effective in both utilizations; plus it has versatility – while the
      crossbow is limited to specific bolts designed for it.

      For me, the key difference is TRAINING. It took a lifetime of
      crippling practice to excel with the longbow; but a `castle guard'
      with a crossbow could become proficient in weeks without destroying
      himself. In modern Germany, the machine pistol was developed in
      order to decrease training time rather than increase kill rate. A
      rifle marksman requires experience or training – while even a blind,
      one armed man can hit something with a sub-machine gun.

      and I, limited by disabilities may change to a crossbow – for love
      of sport, not because of some hierarchical perception. Either way I
      can't hit much.

      However, each weapon form and attendant style and skill should be
      secondary (within SCA) to the `heart of the archer' as opposed to
      the `close combat' alternatives. I believe that every effort with
      coins or any future projects should be designed to attract SCAdians
      to archery and to recognize prowess, and have fun. Anything that
      even appears as division or split purpose should be avoided. Get
      the Royals to the range to participate --- whether they use bow,
      crossbow, or throw rocks is secondary.

      Kinjal
    • John edgerton
      Thank you Kinjal. That is the idea I am looking for in a motto. Jon On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 03:40 AM, Kinjal of Moravia wrote: misc deleted ...
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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        Thank you Kinjal. That is the idea I am looking for in a motto.

        Jon

        On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 03:40 AM, Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
        misc deleted

        > However, each weapon form and attendant style and skill should be
        > secondary (within SCA) to the `heart of the archer' as opposed to
        > the `close combat' alternatives. I believe that every effort with
        > coins or any future projects should be designed to attract SCAdians
        > to archery and to recognize prowess, and have fun. Anything that
        > even appears as division or split purpose should be avoided. Get
        > the Royals to the range to participate --- whether they use bow,
        > crossbow, or throw rocks is secondary.
        >
        > Kinjal


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
        Marcus offered, Although there is room for arguement, I have the perspective that Archors are for Artillery (i.e. Raining Death) and Crossbowmen are more for
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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          Marcus offered,
          "Although there is room for arguement, I have the perspective that
          Archors are for Artillery (i.e. Raining Death) and Crossbowmen are
          more for direct fire (i.e. Sniping). Crossbow bolts tend to shoot
          straighter and penetrate better than arrows. So coming up with a motto that
          implies these Crossbow traits would be better suited in my mind."


          I would have to disagree in part here.

          There needs to be a motto that incorporates the main use of ranging
          weapons, of the small missle variety.

          The handbow is far from being relegated to "mortar fire", in the hands
          of someone trained to use it. I am concerned that there appears to be
          more and more people "poo-poo" the weapons true ability....but that is
          another topic. ;)

          For an archery coin, we need to look for incorporation, and not division.

          Jon, did you ask about language? I can't remember..... was the motto
          going to be in Latin?......
          or Welsh... ;)

          Godwin
        • John edgerton
          In English, so it will be understandable without need for translation. If in Welsh, then even the Welsh could not understand it. ;-) Although I did read that
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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            In English, so it will be understandable without need for translation.

            If in Welsh, then even the Welsh could not understand it. ;-)
            Although I did read that they are trying to reintroduce the language.

            Jon
            On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Godwin FitzGilbert de
            Strigoil wrote:
            >

            Misc deleted

            > For an archery coin, we need to look for incorporation, and not
            > division.
            >
            > Jon, did you ask about language? I can't remember..... was the motto
            > going to be in Latin?......
            > or Welsh... ;)
            >
            > Godwin


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Laebeth Cúriel
            Actually, “south” Welsh has been experiencing a renaissance over the past few decades. North Welsh is still the first language learned by many in the,
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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              Actually, “south” Welsh has been experiencing a renaissance over the past
              few decades. North Welsh is still the first language learned by many in
              the, well, north, of course. English is taught in the schools, but the
              language remains well alive in the rural communities.



              Os treisiodd y gelyn fy ngwlad dan ei droed,
              Mae hen iaith y Cymry mor fyw ag erioed,
              Ni luddiwyd yr awen gan erchyll law brad,
              Na thelyn berseiniol fy ngwlad.



              Gwlad, Gwlad, pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad,
              Tra môr yn fur i'r bur hoff bau,
              O bydded i'r heniaith barhau.



              [rough English translation

              Though the enemy has trampled my country underfoot,
              The old language of the Welsh knows no retreat,
              The treacherous hand has not hindered the spirit Nor has it silenced the
              sweet harp of my land.



              Land! Land! I am true to my land!
              As long as the see serves as a wall for this pure, dear land
              May the language endure for ever.



              Y Ddraig Goch ddyrry cychwyn!



              Laebeth





              P.S. The popularity of JRR Tolkien’s Sindarin language, resulting from the
              success of the LotR movies, also gave Welsh a boost, as JRRT used Welsh as
              the structural basis for that common language of the Elves.





              ~dabcdabdcabcdabc~

              One Arrow



              Arrows@...

              www.1Arrow.net <http://www.1arrow.net/>



              _____

              From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of John edgerton
              Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 1:41 PM
              To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Into the fray



              In English, so it will be understandable without need for translation.

              If in Welsh, then even the Welsh could not understand it. ;-)
              Although I did read that they are trying to reintroduce the language.

              Jon
              On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Godwin FitzGilbert de
              Strigoil wrote:
              >

              Misc deleted

              > For an archery coin, we need to look for incorporation, and not
              > division.
              >
              > Jon, did you ask about language? I can't remember..... was the motto
              > going to be in Latin?......
              > or Welsh... ;)
              >
              > Godwin

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Laebeth Cúriel
              [BAD FINGERS! SENT THIS BEFORE I COULD TYPE THE TITLE OF THE VERSES.] Actually, “south” Welsh has been experiencing a renaissance over the past few
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 4, 2006
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                [BAD FINGERS! SENT THIS BEFORE I COULD TYPE THE TITLE OF THE VERSES.]



                Actually, “south” Welsh has been experiencing a renaissance over the past
                few decades. North Welsh is still the first language learned by many in
                the, well, north, of course. English is taught in the schools, but the
                language remains well alive in the rural communities.



                This is the last verse and chorus from Hen ‘Wlad Fy Nhadau, the unofficial
                anthem of Wales (Land of my Fathers).



                Os treisiodd y gelyn fy ngwlad dan ei droed,
                Mae hen iaith y Cymry mor fyw ag erioed,
                Ni luddiwyd yr awen gan erchyll law brad,
                Na thelyn berseiniol fy ngwlad.



                Gwlad, Gwlad, pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad,
                Tra môr yn fur i'r bur hoff bau,
                O bydded i'r heniaith barhau.



                [rough English translation

                Though the enemy has trampled my country underfoot,
                The old language of the Welsh knows no retreat,
                The treacherous hand has not hindered the spirit

                Nor has it silenced the sweet harp of my land.



                Land! Land! I am true to my land!
                As long as the see serves as a wall for this pure, dear land
                May the language endure for ever.



                Y Ddraig Goch ddyrry cychwyn!



                Laebeth





                P.S. The popularity of JRR Tolkien’s Sindarin language, resulting from the
                success of the LotR movies, also gave Welsh a boost, as JRRT used Welsh as
                the structural basis for that common language of the Elves.





                ~dabcdabdcabcdabc~

                One Arrow



                Arrows@...

                www.1Arrow.net <http://www.1arrow.net/>



                _____

                From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of John edgerton
                Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 1:41 PM
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Into the fray



                In English, so it will be understandable without need for translation.

                If in Welsh, then even the Welsh could not understand it. ;-)
                Although I did read that they are trying to reintroduce the language.

                Jon
                On Monday, September 4, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Godwin FitzGilbert de
                Strigoil wrote:
                >

                Misc deleted

                > For an archery coin, we need to look for incorporation, and not
                > division.
                >
                > Jon, did you ask about language? I can't remember..... was the motto
                > going to be in Latin?......
                > or Welsh... ;)
                >
                > Godwin

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Luigi Kapaj
                Hmmm... Must make a few comments based of recent research. ... In Medieval Chinese armies, it was the exact opposite of this situation. Archers were highly
                Message 7 of 7 , Sep 5, 2006
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                  Hmmm... Must make a few comments based of recent research.

                  > Marcus offered,
                  > "Although there is room for arguement, I have the perspective
                  > that Archors are for Artillery (i.e. Raining Death) and
                  > Crossbowmen are more for direct fire (i.e. Sniping).
                  > Crossbow bolts tend to shoot straighter and penetrate
                  > better than arrows. So coming up with a motto that implies
                  > these Crossbow traits would be better suited in my mind."

                  In Medieval Chinese armies, it was the exact opposite of this situation.
                  Archers were highly skilled and in training year round. Crossbows were used
                  for feudal levies with little training as it took less time to get them to
                  combat effectiveness. Rows of crossbowmen were used to attrition enemy lines
                  while the more skilled archers used their bows to snipe any troops that were
                  getting through the hail of bolts.


                  > ...They did
                  > not use siege tactics until learned from Europeans, and then
                  > proved effective in using gleaned arrows of any length and strength.

                  True, the Mongols did use arrow fire in both direct sniping and in an
                  artillery like manner. Mongol troops were mobile and often used both these
                  and other styles of archery fire in a single battle.

                  But make no mistake about the effectiveness of siege weapons in the Mongol
                  war machine. Mongols were laying siege to Chinese and Middle Eastern cities
                  long before they even heard of Europe. They developed their own tactics and
                  incorporated knowledge and technology whenever they could, even what little
                  Europe had to offer. Mongols took the siege equipment and weapons they found
                  along the way, enhanced them, and developed new tactical uses. Mongols
                  invented the cannon. Mongols invented many open field uses of siege weapons
                  that are still in use today including rolling barrages.

                  Many tactics used in SCA battles are modern, not Medieval, except that some
                  of them are derived from tacticians who studied Mongol warfare and gave them
                  their own names: 3 prong attack, blitzkrieg...


                  References:
                  The Devil's Horsemen, by James Chambers
                  Subotai the Valiant, by Richard A. Gabriel
                  Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, by Jack Weatherford
                  Chinese Archery, by Stephen Selby
                  http://silverhorde.viahistoria.com/research/tactics.html



                  -Puppy

                  Gulugjab Tangghudai
                  Khan of the Silver Horde

                  http://www.NYCMongol.com
                  * New expanded inventory *
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