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Re: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows

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  • Carl West
    ... In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn t straight in the
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 2, 2006
      Rj Bachner wrote:

      > Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so much about
      > straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.

      In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely
      has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn't
      straight in the store, the chances of it having continuous grain are
      slim. Straightness a reasonable first test. _Then_ check the grain.


      > As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer bow must
      > have a lot of handshock.

      I'm curious, why would a longer bow necessarily result in handshock?
      If it's well tillered and the arrows are heavy enough for the bows
      strength and speed, it could be really sweet and smooth.


      >> I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added weight of
      >> those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing will be
      >> worse.

      The man is drawing _eight_ inches more than average, I expect the
      additional powerstroke will make up for the added weight quite admirably.

      The shafts could be footed with something light, it doesn't _have_ to be
      a dense hardwood if you're footing for length instead of durability or
      balance or style.

      I've long believed that it more important that the arrows leave the bow
      consistently than quickly.

      - Fritz
    • Godwin fitzGilbert de Strigoil
      ... much about ... bow must ... weight of ... will be ... admirably. ... to be ... ently than quickly. ... AMEN Fritz. Most folks understand the whole
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 3, 2006
        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carl West <carl.west@...> wrote:
        >
        > Rj Bachner wrote:
        >
        > > Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so
        much about
        > > straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.
        >
        > In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely
        > has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn't
        > straight in the store, the chances of it having continuous grain are
        > slim. Straightness a reasonable first test. _Then_ check the grain.
        >
        >
        > > As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer
        bow must
        > > have a lot of handshock.
        >
        > I'm curious, why would a longer bow necessarily result in handshock?
        > If it's well tillered and the arrows are heavy enough for the bows
        > strength and speed, it could be really sweet and smooth.
        >
        >
        > >> I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added
        weight of
        > >> those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing
        will be
        > >> worse.
        >
        > The man is drawing _eight_ inches more than average, I expect the
        > additional powerstroke will make up for the added weight quite
        admirably.
        >
        > The shafts could be footed with something light, it doesn't _have_
        to be
        > a dense hardwood if you're footing for length instead of durability or
        > balance or style.
        >
        > I've long believed that it more important that the arrows leave the bow
        > consist
        ently than quickly.
        >
        > - Fritz
        >

        AMEN Fritz.

        Most folks understand the whole spine/bow weight relationship, and for
        the vast majority of folks that shoot modern centershot bows, that is
        sufficient.

        However when shooting bows with varying degrees of archers paradox
        (longbows, magyars-type, some flatbows- etc...) you must also consider
        the relationship of limb tip speed-to-physical weight (mass) of the
        arrow. Plus the fact that spine weight becomes much more critical.

        Then throw in FOC balance point, and also what you are *really*
        shooting as a spine weight for your arrow. I guarantee that what you
        spined your arrow at 'before' you started building it, is not what you
        are actually shooting. Doesn't mean that the spine weight
        'pre-assembly' is wrong.

        Of course don't forget the other thing that modifies the spine weight
        of the arrow: point weight. Heavier points virtually decrease the
        spine weight, lighter ones virtually increase.

        Handshock can come from different areas, the big two IMHO:
        1. Mismatch on arrow mass and limb tip speed.
        2. Bow limbs mismatched in final tiller.

        ...ah... I'll stop rambling now.

        Godwin
      • Rj Bachner
        Yep your right about the straightness of grain but what I have found is that the way dowels are stored contributes to a lack of initial straightness. I have
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 3, 2006
          Yep your right about the straightness of grain but what I have found is that
          the way dowels are stored contributes to a lack of initial straightness. I
          have found many dowels that were good but bent due to gravity and poor
          storage. A little heat a little bend and voila you have a nice straight
          shaft. Ok they need to be trained straight a few times to make up for the
          abuse they suffered as mere dowels but good arrows they remain. This is why
          I say straightness of grain should be a primary concern for selecting dowels
          for arrows. Once you are happy with the grain then you can start to measure
          for spine and weight etc. Selecting for straightness of the dowel first may
          cost you many dowels that would work but for a little effort.

          The reason I said a long bow might suffer from handshock is that a long bow
          has long limbs and those long limbs have a lot of mass to swing forward when
          released and if not tillered properly they will have too much mass in the
          outer limbs and so handshock.

          Now I have started making long flat bows that act like a longbow with a more
          arc of the ellipse bend with short flatbow length working limbs and a long
          static handle. This gives me speed, low string angle and the stability of a
          longbow without the effect of long working limbs. When I made flat bows of
          72 inches with a short handle I found the bow to be a lot more shocky and I
          was not happy with the performance.

          Now we all know a longer bow inherently stores more energy than a short bow
          all things considered but you pay for it with decreased efficiency in power
          delivery.

          Either I am not very good at tillering long bows or long working limbs are a
          little more shocky and require heavy arrows to tame the bow and absorb all
          that energy. I assumed the latter is more likely though my skill may be
          wanting as well. ;) Your mileage may vary but that's what I have learned

          Ragi

          -----Original Message-----
          From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Carl West
          Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:19 AM
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows

          Rj Bachner wrote:

          > Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so much about
          > straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.

          In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely
          has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn't
          straight in the store, the chances of it having continuous grain are
          slim. Straightness a reasonable first test. _Then_ check the grain.


          > As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer bow must
          > have a lot of handshock.

          I'm curious, why would a longer bow necessarily result in handshock?
          If it's well tillered and the arrows are heavy enough for the bows
          strength and speed, it could be really sweet and smooth.


          >> I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added weight of
          >> those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing will be
          >> worse.

          The man is drawing _eight_ inches more than average, I expect the
          additional powerstroke will make up for the added weight quite admirably.

          The shafts could be footed with something light, it doesn't _have_ to be
          a dense hardwood if you're footing for length instead of durability or
          balance or style.

          I've long believed that it more important that the arrows leave the bow
          consistently than quickly.

          - Fritz



          --
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        • jotl@ridgecrest.ca.us
          ... Which is why you usually give it your best shot, then tune the arrow to the bow by shooting them and observing the results. It certainly helps to have an
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 3, 2006
            At 3:29 PM 7/3/06 +0000, Godwin fitzGilbert de Strigoil wrote:

            >However when shooting bows with varying degrees of archers paradox
            >(longbows, magyars-type, some flatbows- etc...) you must also consider
            >the relationship of limb tip speed-to-physical weight (mass) of the
            >arrow. Plus the fact that spine weight becomes much more critical.
            >
            >Then throw in FOC balance point, and also what you are *really*
            >shooting as a spine weight for your arrow. I guarantee that what you
            >spined your arrow at 'before' you started building it, is not what you
            >are actually shooting. Doesn't mean that the spine weight
            >'pre-assembly' is wrong.
            >
            >Of course don't forget the other thing that modifies the spine weight
            >of the arrow: point weight. Heavier points virtually decrease the
            >spine weight, lighter ones virtually increase.
            >
            >Handshock can come from different areas, the big two IMHO:
            >1. Mismatch on arrow mass and limb tip speed.
            >2. Bow limbs mismatched in final tiller.

            Which is why you usually give it your best shot, then tune the arrow to the
            bow by shooting them and observing the results. It certainly helps to have
            an experienced archer stand behind and observe.

            James
            jotl@...
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