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Re: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows

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  • Lady Sabran
    You might want to try hexshafts.com I really like their arrow shafts and my whole family uses them for their arrows. Carres Sabran Tir Ysgithr, Atenveldt ...
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 30, 2006
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      You might want to try hexshafts.com I really like their arrow shafts and my whole family uses them for their arrows.

      Carres Sabran
      Tir Ysgithr, Atenveldt


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Sheri Rees<mailto:s.l.rees@...>
      To: sca-archery@yahoogroups.com<mailto:sca-archery@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:04 AM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows


      Hi all,

      I know some of you run 'archery shops' and others just have some good
      info on what's out there.

      Does anyone know where I can get long shafting for arrows? Either
      cedar, hardwood, bamboo, or footed shafts? My hubby has a ridiculous
      36" draw length and I made him a yew longbow at that draw.

      Thanks much
      Shadhra





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Carl West
      ... In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn t straight in the
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 2 9:18 PM
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        Rj Bachner wrote:

        > Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so much about
        > straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.

        In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely
        has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn't
        straight in the store, the chances of it having continuous grain are
        slim. Straightness a reasonable first test. _Then_ check the grain.


        > As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer bow must
        > have a lot of handshock.

        I'm curious, why would a longer bow necessarily result in handshock?
        If it's well tillered and the arrows are heavy enough for the bows
        strength and speed, it could be really sweet and smooth.


        >> I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added weight of
        >> those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing will be
        >> worse.

        The man is drawing _eight_ inches more than average, I expect the
        additional powerstroke will make up for the added weight quite admirably.

        The shafts could be footed with something light, it doesn't _have_ to be
        a dense hardwood if you're footing for length instead of durability or
        balance or style.

        I've long believed that it more important that the arrows leave the bow
        consistently than quickly.

        - Fritz
      • Godwin fitzGilbert de Strigoil
        ... much about ... bow must ... weight of ... will be ... admirably. ... to be ... ently than quickly. ... AMEN Fritz. Most folks understand the whole
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 3 8:29 AM
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          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carl West <carl.west@...> wrote:
          >
          > Rj Bachner wrote:
          >
          > > Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so
          much about
          > > straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.
          >
          > In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely
          > has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn't
          > straight in the store, the chances of it having continuous grain are
          > slim. Straightness a reasonable first test. _Then_ check the grain.
          >
          >
          > > As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer
          bow must
          > > have a lot of handshock.
          >
          > I'm curious, why would a longer bow necessarily result in handshock?
          > If it's well tillered and the arrows are heavy enough for the bows
          > strength and speed, it could be really sweet and smooth.
          >
          >
          > >> I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added
          weight of
          > >> those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing
          will be
          > >> worse.
          >
          > The man is drawing _eight_ inches more than average, I expect the
          > additional powerstroke will make up for the added weight quite
          admirably.
          >
          > The shafts could be footed with something light, it doesn't _have_
          to be
          > a dense hardwood if you're footing for length instead of durability or
          > balance or style.
          >
          > I've long believed that it more important that the arrows leave the bow
          > consist
          ently than quickly.
          >
          > - Fritz
          >

          AMEN Fritz.

          Most folks understand the whole spine/bow weight relationship, and for
          the vast majority of folks that shoot modern centershot bows, that is
          sufficient.

          However when shooting bows with varying degrees of archers paradox
          (longbows, magyars-type, some flatbows- etc...) you must also consider
          the relationship of limb tip speed-to-physical weight (mass) of the
          arrow. Plus the fact that spine weight becomes much more critical.

          Then throw in FOC balance point, and also what you are *really*
          shooting as a spine weight for your arrow. I guarantee that what you
          spined your arrow at 'before' you started building it, is not what you
          are actually shooting. Doesn't mean that the spine weight
          'pre-assembly' is wrong.

          Of course don't forget the other thing that modifies the spine weight
          of the arrow: point weight. Heavier points virtually decrease the
          spine weight, lighter ones virtually increase.

          Handshock can come from different areas, the big two IMHO:
          1. Mismatch on arrow mass and limb tip speed.
          2. Bow limbs mismatched in final tiller.

          ...ah... I'll stop rambling now.

          Godwin
        • Rj Bachner
          Yep your right about the straightness of grain but what I have found is that the way dowels are stored contributes to a lack of initial straightness. I have
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 3 1:11 PM
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            Yep your right about the straightness of grain but what I have found is that
            the way dowels are stored contributes to a lack of initial straightness. I
            have found many dowels that were good but bent due to gravity and poor
            storage. A little heat a little bend and voila you have a nice straight
            shaft. Ok they need to be trained straight a few times to make up for the
            abuse they suffered as mere dowels but good arrows they remain. This is why
            I say straightness of grain should be a primary concern for selecting dowels
            for arrows. Once you are happy with the grain then you can start to measure
            for spine and weight etc. Selecting for straightness of the dowel first may
            cost you many dowels that would work but for a little effort.

            The reason I said a long bow might suffer from handshock is that a long bow
            has long limbs and those long limbs have a lot of mass to swing forward when
            released and if not tillered properly they will have too much mass in the
            outer limbs and so handshock.

            Now I have started making long flat bows that act like a longbow with a more
            arc of the ellipse bend with short flatbow length working limbs and a long
            static handle. This gives me speed, low string angle and the stability of a
            longbow without the effect of long working limbs. When I made flat bows of
            72 inches with a short handle I found the bow to be a lot more shocky and I
            was not happy with the performance.

            Now we all know a longer bow inherently stores more energy than a short bow
            all things considered but you pay for it with decreased efficiency in power
            delivery.

            Either I am not very good at tillering long bows or long working limbs are a
            little more shocky and require heavy arrows to tame the bow and absorb all
            that energy. I assumed the latter is more likely though my skill may be
            wanting as well. ;) Your mileage may vary but that's what I have learned

            Ragi

            -----Original Message-----
            From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Carl West
            Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:19 AM
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows

            Rj Bachner wrote:

            > Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so much about
            > straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.

            In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely
            has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn't
            straight in the store, the chances of it having continuous grain are
            slim. Straightness a reasonable first test. _Then_ check the grain.


            > As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer bow must
            > have a lot of handshock.

            I'm curious, why would a longer bow necessarily result in handshock?
            If it's well tillered and the arrows are heavy enough for the bows
            strength and speed, it could be really sweet and smooth.


            >> I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added weight of
            >> those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing will be
            >> worse.

            The man is drawing _eight_ inches more than average, I expect the
            additional powerstroke will make up for the added weight quite admirably.

            The shafts could be footed with something light, it doesn't _have_ to be
            a dense hardwood if you're footing for length instead of durability or
            balance or style.

            I've long believed that it more important that the arrows leave the bow
            consistently than quickly.

            - Fritz



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          • jotl@ridgecrest.ca.us
            ... Which is why you usually give it your best shot, then tune the arrow to the bow by shooting them and observing the results. It certainly helps to have an
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 3 1:50 PM
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              At 3:29 PM 7/3/06 +0000, Godwin fitzGilbert de Strigoil wrote:

              >However when shooting bows with varying degrees of archers paradox
              >(longbows, magyars-type, some flatbows- etc...) you must also consider
              >the relationship of limb tip speed-to-physical weight (mass) of the
              >arrow. Plus the fact that spine weight becomes much more critical.
              >
              >Then throw in FOC balance point, and also what you are *really*
              >shooting as a spine weight for your arrow. I guarantee that what you
              >spined your arrow at 'before' you started building it, is not what you
              >are actually shooting. Doesn't mean that the spine weight
              >'pre-assembly' is wrong.
              >
              >Of course don't forget the other thing that modifies the spine weight
              >of the arrow: point weight. Heavier points virtually decrease the
              >spine weight, lighter ones virtually increase.
              >
              >Handshock can come from different areas, the big two IMHO:
              >1. Mismatch on arrow mass and limb tip speed.
              >2. Bow limbs mismatched in final tiller.

              Which is why you usually give it your best shot, then tune the arrow to the
              bow by shooting them and observing the results. It certainly helps to have
              an experienced archer stand behind and observe.

              James
              jotl@...
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