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Re: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows

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  • Lady Sabran
    You might want to try hexshafts.com I really like their arrow shafts and my whole family uses them for their arrows. Carres Sabran Tir Ysgithr, Atenveldt ...
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 30, 2006
      You might want to try hexshafts.com I really like their arrow shafts and my whole family uses them for their arrows.

      Carres Sabran
      Tir Ysgithr, Atenveldt


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Sheri Rees<mailto:s.l.rees@...>
      To: sca-archery@yahoogroups.com<mailto:sca-archery@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:04 AM
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows


      Hi all,

      I know some of you run 'archery shops' and others just have some good
      info on what's out there.

      Does anyone know where I can get long shafting for arrows? Either
      cedar, hardwood, bamboo, or footed shafts? My hubby has a ridiculous
      36" draw length and I made him a yew longbow at that draw.

      Thanks much
      Shadhra





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rj Bachner
      Heya Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so much about straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed. The
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 2, 2006
        Heya

        Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so much about
        straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.

        The instructions are not on my diy pages. In fact I cant add anything new as
        my webspace is a problem soon to be fixed.

        The basic tools you will need are a doweling cutter from lee valley
        http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=52401&cat=1,180,42288

        a drill that can handle 1/2 inch square stock and some sandpaper and an
        accuarte drill sizing guage.

        The dowel cutter works well but I suggest you rig up something to guide to
        outfeed for the whole length of the arrow, say a 1 inch pvc pipe so that the
        dowel does not wobble and break as it spins then sandpaper it smooth.

        Get the 3/8 inch model and have fun, I suggest using something cheap and
        simple till you get good, like 1/2 by 40 inch poplar square stock.

        As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer bow must
        have a lot of handshock. I would love to see your work none the less.

        If you do not wish to make your own arrows I would be happy to make you
        some. I would have to charge accordingly but I can do it. Get back to me
        privately if you want and we can see what we can do.

        www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca is my arrowmaking business so go take a look and see
        if my styles appeal to you.


        Have fun.

        ragi




        -----Original Message-----
        From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Sheri Rees
        Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 12:38 PM
        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows

        All good ideas Ragi,

        I have tried sorting through the dowels at the store. 2 main
        problems - I've never found more than 6-8 straightish ones at a time
        and I have a 2yr old who quickly gets bored with this game.

        I haven't tried making my own - not sure I have the correct tools and
        again that 2 yr old who gets bored. Are the instructions on your DIY
        pages? Or please send them to me - I'll give it a try. The added
        weight from footing may be acceptable if that's all I can find. Some
        of these may become hunting arrows - if he determines that he can hit
        the target accurately enough.

        I made the bow to be 58 lb at 36". His big problem with other bows
        is that by the time he pulls them back to his full draw length they
        stack horribly and pinch his fingers. And shooting a 80+ pound bow
        when you're first starting is not exactly conducive to learning. So
        I made one as tall as him (80 inch) with a modest poundage at his
        range (equates to something like 32 lb at 28").

        Thanks
        Shadhra

        At 11:25 AM 7/1/2006, you wrote:
        >Well most suppliers of arrow shafts deal in 32 inches as a max, if you find
        >someone who cuts their own shafting then they can make you arrows any
        length
        >you need. I can also explain how to make your own shafts if you wish, they
        >can be done by hand and if you can make a longbow of yew then you can make
        >your own arrows.
        >
        >I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added weight of
        >those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing will be
        >worse.
        >
        >You might consider going to a hardware store and collecting 4 foot dowels
        in
        >the spine and weight you need, if you don't know how find someone who has a
        >spine jig and a grain scale to select out the arrows you need.
        >
        >What draw weight is the bow at his draw length anyways?
        >
        >Ragi



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      • Jeffrey Webb
        Greetings, I haven t purchased from them in a while, but the folks at Allegheny Mountain Arrow Woods told me at the Trad Rendevous a few years back that they
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 2, 2006
          Greetings,
          I haven't purchased from them in a while, but the folks at Allegheny Mountain Arrow Woods told me at the Trad Rendevous a few years back that they would make up shafts in 36" lengths on special order.(Back when I was making arrows for other people, I had a customer that was 6'6" tall and had a 35" draw)
          You might give them a call (if they're still in business).
          -Geoffrei

          check out the Eastwinds Tribal Drumming web-page at:

          http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Sheri Rees
          Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2006 12:37 PM
          To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows

          All good ideas Ragi,

          I have tried sorting through the dowels at the store. 2 main
          problems - I've never found more than 6-8 straightish ones at a time
          and I have a 2yr old who quickly gets bored with this game.

          I haven't tried making my own - not sure I have the correct tools and
          again that 2 yr old who gets bored. Are the instructions on your DIY
          pages? Or please send them to me - I'll give it a try. The added
          weight from footing may be acceptable if that's all I can find. Some
          of these may become hunting arrows - if he determines that he can hit
          the target accurately enough.

          I made the bow to be 58 lb at 36". His big problem with other bows
          is that by the time he pulls them back to his full draw length they
          stack horribly and pinch his fingers. And shooting a 80+ pound bow
          when you're first starting is not exactly conducive to learning. So
          I made one as tall as him (80 inch) with a modest poundage at his
          range (equates to something like 32 lb at 28").

          Thanks
          Shadhra

          At 11:25 AM 7/1/2006, you wrote:
          >Well most suppliers of arrow shafts deal in 32 inches as a max, if you find
          >someone who cuts their own shafting then they can make you arrows any length
          >you need. I can also explain how to make your own shafts if you wish, they
          >can be done by hand and if you can make a longbow of yew then you can make
          >your own arrows.
          >
          >I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added weight of
          >those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing will be
          >worse.
          >
          >You might consider going to a hardware store and collecting 4 foot dowels in
          >the spine and weight you need, if you don't know how find someone who has a
          >spine jig and a grain scale to select out the arrows you need.
          >
          >What draw weight is the bow at his draw length anyways?
          >
          >Ragi



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        • Carl West
          ... In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn t straight in the
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 2, 2006
            Rj Bachner wrote:

            > Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so much about
            > straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.

            In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely
            has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn't
            straight in the store, the chances of it having continuous grain are
            slim. Straightness a reasonable first test. _Then_ check the grain.


            > As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer bow must
            > have a lot of handshock.

            I'm curious, why would a longer bow necessarily result in handshock?
            If it's well tillered and the arrows are heavy enough for the bows
            strength and speed, it could be really sweet and smooth.


            >> I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added weight of
            >> those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing will be
            >> worse.

            The man is drawing _eight_ inches more than average, I expect the
            additional powerstroke will make up for the added weight quite admirably.

            The shafts could be footed with something light, it doesn't _have_ to be
            a dense hardwood if you're footing for length instead of durability or
            balance or style.

            I've long believed that it more important that the arrows leave the bow
            consistently than quickly.

            - Fritz
          • Godwin fitzGilbert de Strigoil
            ... much about ... bow must ... weight of ... will be ... admirably. ... to be ... ently than quickly. ... AMEN Fritz. Most folks understand the whole
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 3, 2006
              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carl West <carl.west@...> wrote:
              >
              > Rj Bachner wrote:
              >
              > > Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so
              much about
              > > straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.
              >
              > In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely
              > has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn't
              > straight in the store, the chances of it having continuous grain are
              > slim. Straightness a reasonable first test. _Then_ check the grain.
              >
              >
              > > As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer
              bow must
              > > have a lot of handshock.
              >
              > I'm curious, why would a longer bow necessarily result in handshock?
              > If it's well tillered and the arrows are heavy enough for the bows
              > strength and speed, it could be really sweet and smooth.
              >
              >
              > >> I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added
              weight of
              > >> those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing
              will be
              > >> worse.
              >
              > The man is drawing _eight_ inches more than average, I expect the
              > additional powerstroke will make up for the added weight quite
              admirably.
              >
              > The shafts could be footed with something light, it doesn't _have_
              to be
              > a dense hardwood if you're footing for length instead of durability or
              > balance or style.
              >
              > I've long believed that it more important that the arrows leave the bow
              > consist
              ently than quickly.
              >
              > - Fritz
              >

              AMEN Fritz.

              Most folks understand the whole spine/bow weight relationship, and for
              the vast majority of folks that shoot modern centershot bows, that is
              sufficient.

              However when shooting bows with varying degrees of archers paradox
              (longbows, magyars-type, some flatbows- etc...) you must also consider
              the relationship of limb tip speed-to-physical weight (mass) of the
              arrow. Plus the fact that spine weight becomes much more critical.

              Then throw in FOC balance point, and also what you are *really*
              shooting as a spine weight for your arrow. I guarantee that what you
              spined your arrow at 'before' you started building it, is not what you
              are actually shooting. Doesn't mean that the spine weight
              'pre-assembly' is wrong.

              Of course don't forget the other thing that modifies the spine weight
              of the arrow: point weight. Heavier points virtually decrease the
              spine weight, lighter ones virtually increase.

              Handshock can come from different areas, the big two IMHO:
              1. Mismatch on arrow mass and limb tip speed.
              2. Bow limbs mismatched in final tiller.

              ...ah... I'll stop rambling now.

              Godwin
            • Rj Bachner
              Yep your right about the straightness of grain but what I have found is that the way dowels are stored contributes to a lack of initial straightness. I have
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 3, 2006
                Yep your right about the straightness of grain but what I have found is that
                the way dowels are stored contributes to a lack of initial straightness. I
                have found many dowels that were good but bent due to gravity and poor
                storage. A little heat a little bend and voila you have a nice straight
                shaft. Ok they need to be trained straight a few times to make up for the
                abuse they suffered as mere dowels but good arrows they remain. This is why
                I say straightness of grain should be a primary concern for selecting dowels
                for arrows. Once you are happy with the grain then you can start to measure
                for spine and weight etc. Selecting for straightness of the dowel first may
                cost you many dowels that would work but for a little effort.

                The reason I said a long bow might suffer from handshock is that a long bow
                has long limbs and those long limbs have a lot of mass to swing forward when
                released and if not tillered properly they will have too much mass in the
                outer limbs and so handshock.

                Now I have started making long flat bows that act like a longbow with a more
                arc of the ellipse bend with short flatbow length working limbs and a long
                static handle. This gives me speed, low string angle and the stability of a
                longbow without the effect of long working limbs. When I made flat bows of
                72 inches with a short handle I found the bow to be a lot more shocky and I
                was not happy with the performance.

                Now we all know a longer bow inherently stores more energy than a short bow
                all things considered but you pay for it with decreased efficiency in power
                delivery.

                Either I am not very good at tillering long bows or long working limbs are a
                little more shocky and require heavy arrows to tame the bow and absorb all
                that energy. I assumed the latter is more likely though my skill may be
                wanting as well. ;) Your mileage may vary but that's what I have learned

                Ragi

                -----Original Message-----
                From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Carl West
                Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:19 AM
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Long arrows

                Rj Bachner wrote:

                > Yeah the dowel route takes time for sure, I would not worrry so much about
                > straightness as nice straight clean grain.all the rest can be fixed.

                In _general_ if the dowel is straight in the hardware store, it likely
                has continuous grain. Or maybe more accurately, If a dowel isn't
                straight in the store, the chances of it having continuous grain are
                slim. Straightness a reasonable first test. _Then_ check the grain.


                > As for the bow, 36 inches is very long for a draw, so the longer bow must
                > have a lot of handshock.

                I'm curious, why would a longer bow necessarily result in handshock?
                If it's well tillered and the arrows are heavy enough for the bows
                strength and speed, it could be really sweet and smooth.


                >> I don't think footing is gonna be a good idea really, the added weight of
                >> those longer shafts will slow down the arrows as is the footing will be
                >> worse.

                The man is drawing _eight_ inches more than average, I expect the
                additional powerstroke will make up for the added weight quite admirably.

                The shafts could be footed with something light, it doesn't _have_ to be
                a dense hardwood if you're footing for length instead of durability or
                balance or style.

                I've long believed that it more important that the arrows leave the bow
                consistently than quickly.

                - Fritz



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              • jotl@ridgecrest.ca.us
                ... Which is why you usually give it your best shot, then tune the arrow to the bow by shooting them and observing the results. It certainly helps to have an
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 3, 2006
                  At 3:29 PM 7/3/06 +0000, Godwin fitzGilbert de Strigoil wrote:

                  >However when shooting bows with varying degrees of archers paradox
                  >(longbows, magyars-type, some flatbows- etc...) you must also consider
                  >the relationship of limb tip speed-to-physical weight (mass) of the
                  >arrow. Plus the fact that spine weight becomes much more critical.
                  >
                  >Then throw in FOC balance point, and also what you are *really*
                  >shooting as a spine weight for your arrow. I guarantee that what you
                  >spined your arrow at 'before' you started building it, is not what you
                  >are actually shooting. Doesn't mean that the spine weight
                  >'pre-assembly' is wrong.
                  >
                  >Of course don't forget the other thing that modifies the spine weight
                  >of the arrow: point weight. Heavier points virtually decrease the
                  >spine weight, lighter ones virtually increase.
                  >
                  >Handshock can come from different areas, the big two IMHO:
                  >1. Mismatch on arrow mass and limb tip speed.
                  >2. Bow limbs mismatched in final tiller.

                  Which is why you usually give it your best shot, then tune the arrow to the
                  bow by shooting them and observing the results. It certainly helps to have
                  an experienced archer stand behind and observe.

                  James
                  jotl@...
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