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Definition of our goals (Was: fiberglass in the period division?)

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  • Robert L Brunnemer
    Hallo!!! Okay then. Macsen you make some good points. Could you please then clarify this for me. (Again, I am tired so disregard any kind of sarcasticness
    Message 1 of 5 , May 1, 2000
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      Hallo!!!

      Okay then. Macsen you make some good points. Could you please then
      clarify this for me. (Again, I am tired so disregard any kind of
      sarcasticness [is sarcasticness a word? :-)] please)

      To answer my question of "What are the other aspects of re-creating
      medieval archery?" You said (and I quote) "Shooting medieval gear is an
      aspect of "medieval re-creation." Shooting medieval style shoots is
      "medieval re-creation." For that matter, standing around the archery
      lists in medieval clothing is "medieval re-creation."" And you said
      researching was the other goal of the SCA. (As per examples quoted from
      Corpora.) Correct?

      Personally (and I hope someone else would agree) I feel (IMHO) that
      standing around the archery lists WHILE being "medieval re-creation"
      ISN'T re-creating medieval archery. So the other aspects of re-creating
      medieval archery other then (Kaz's quote) "learning how to shoot period
      gear in a period manner" would have to be participating in and learning
      about/researching (I always thought they were one and the same at least)
      medieval style shoots? (With or without modern gear.) Is this correct,
      or am I way off base here?

      Thanks for the clarification, and...
      Remember no sarcasm here!!! That said...

      Have a nice day!!!
      Robert
      Hugewheels@...
      Tha mi a'fluich mi kilt!!!
      and "When all else fails, get a bigger hammer!!!"

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    • Bob & Nancy Upson
      ... Correct. The point being that one doesn t have to shoot period equipment to learn about period archery. One only needs to shoot period equipment only if
      Message 2 of 5 , May 2, 2000
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        > Personally (and I hope someone else would agree) I feel (IMHO) that
        > standing around the archery lists WHILE being "medieval re-creation"
        > ISN'T re-creating medieval archery. So the other aspects of
        > re-creating medieval archery other then (Kaz's quote) "learning how to
        > shoot period gear in a period manner" would have to be participating
        > in and learning about/researching (I always thought they were one and
        > the same at least) medieval style shoots? (With or without modern
        > gear.) Is this correct, or am I way off base here?

        Correct. The point being that one doesn't have to shoot period
        equipment to learn about period archery. One only needs to shoot
        period equipment only if one wishes to learn about shooting period
        equipment.

        Macsen
      • Chris Nogy
        ... By extension, you don t have to shoot archery at all to learn about period archery. My point is, if we are not making a connection between Arts and
        Message 3 of 5 , May 2, 2000
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          On 5/2/00 at 8:19 AM Bob & Nancy Upson wrote:
          >Correct. The point being that one doesn't have to shoot period
          >equipment to learn about period archery. One only needs to shoot
          >period equipment only if one wishes to learn about shooting period
          >equipment.
          >
          >Macsen
          >

          By extension, you don't have to shoot archery at all to learn about period archery.

          My point is, if we are not making a connection between Arts and Sciences of archery and actual performance of archery, then we don't have to know how to build bows, to make gear at all.

          If our activity within a defined medieval recreation group is the shooting of archery, by limit of the definition of the parent group, archery should fall within period practices.

          When we move into the A&S end, then we are constrained by definition to research period stuff. After all, wouldn't it be ludicrous to expect that the study of modern gear (lets even go as far as compounds) should have an official place within the A&S of the Society? Sure, if can help an individual gain knowlege, but it is not inherantly part of the Soceity view and thus remains as an individual effort. You will not be recognized as a Laurel for your research into modern bows. That is because there is no category within the SCA as it is defined to deal with the modern study of modern things.

          Why then is it any sillier to expect that in shooting, we should expect the same basic approach?

          It is a stretch to say that shooting at a hanging dead animal (a common diversion shoot in period after a day of hunting) with modern gear qualifies as medieval archery.

          Far less of a stretch to say that shooting period gear at modern targets is medieval - period archers didn't have to care what their targets were, they were just challenges to 'hit that (fill in the blank) over there.'

          Now scoring targets is a different thing entirely - has very little to do with the actual shooting.

          If we are talking about shooting archery within the SCA, and the SCA is defined as a medieval promotion and re-creation group, then our shooting should be medieval. And shooting modern style gear isn't, with the exception that it does allow us to send an arrow downrange.


          Kaz
        • Bob & Nancy Upson
          ... Quite true. ... Correct. It s not necessary to be a bowyer to be an archer any more than it s necessary to be an armorer to be a knight or to be a
          Message 4 of 5 , May 2, 2000
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            > By extension, you don't have to shoot archery at all to learn about
            > period archery.

            Quite true.

            > My point is, if we are not making a connection between Arts and
            > Sciences of archery and actual performance of archery, then we don't
            > have to know how to build bows, to make gear at all.

            Correct. It's not necessary to be a bowyer to be an archer any
            more than it's necessary to be an armorer to be a knight or to be a
            seamstress to be a dancer.

            > If our activity within a defined medieval recreation group is the
            > shooting of archery, by limit of the definition of the parent group,
            > archery should fall within period practices.

            Shooting doesn't define the entire activity but is one aspect of the
            that activity. "Archery" in general encompasses shooting,
            bowyering, fletching, studying the history of archery over time,
            during particular time periods, comparing different archery
            technologies across cultures, etc. Which subset(s) of that general
            area one chooses to actively study and practice is up to the
            individual.

            > When we move into the A&S end, then we are constrained by definition
            > to research period stuff. After all, wouldn't it be ludicrous to
            > expect that the study of modern gear (lets even go as far as

            I wouldn't expect anyone to study modern gear in the SCA except
            as it compares with its medieval antecedents.

            > Why then is it any sillier to expect that in shooting, we should
            > expect the same basic approach?

            What's silly is expecting shooting to necessarily follow that
            particular A&S paradigm. Consider alternatively an A&S
            performance paradigm -- archery is a performance sport as much
            as bowyering is a craftsman's art. The two are related but seperate
            sides of the same coin.

            > It is a stretch to say that shooting at a hanging dead animal (a
            > common diversion shoot in period after a day of hunting) with modern
            > gear qualifies as medieval archery.

            As long as the "modern" equipment is comparable in design and
            function to the period equipment it represents, why not? I can
            think of more challenging and certainly more stimulating period
            shoots but the concept is certainly valid. What paradigm better
            suits our goal of "evoking the atmosphere of pre-17th century
            western culture," shooting a handmade ELB at a mass produced
            mundane FITA target to the call of a tape recorded Marshal-in-a-
            Box or shooting at wands with a simple longbow made with modern
            materials?

            > Far less of a stretch to say that shooting period gear at modern
            > targets is medieval - period archers didn't have to care what their
            > targets were, they were just challenges to 'hit that (fill in the
            > blank) over there.'

            Then why are we (well, not me, actually ;) so obsessed with
            modern shoots in the SCA?

            > Now scoring targets is a different thing entirely - has very little to
            > do with the actual shooting.

            Doesn't it? Modern shoots, like the IKAC, are an abysmal re-
            creation of period competitons. How can the equipment be so
            important and the task itself be so unimportant? To me, that's
            simple contradictory.

            > If we are talking about shooting archery within the SCA, and the SCA
            > is defined as a medieval promotion and re-creation group, then our
            > shooting should be medieval. And shooting modern style gear isn't,
            > with the exception that it does allow us to send an arrow downrange.

            Unless it's sufficiently limited to modern gear that reasonably re-
            creates period gear and is shot in a medieval style competition.

            Macsen
          • Chris Nogy
            ... You and I are in complete agreement on this point - have been on the same side of the gate too many times to count. The extension theory works here. We
            Message 5 of 5 , May 2, 2000
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              On 5/2/00 at 1:28 PM Bob & Nancy Upson wrote:

              >Then why are we (well, not me, actually ;) so obsessed with
              >modern shoots in the SCA?
              >
              You and I are in complete agreement on this point - have been on the same side of the gate too many times to count.

              The extension theory works here. We are obsessed with modern competitions because they deliver what we have been taught to obsess on. Points for total success, feel-good points for a nice try, competition by the numbers and don't make anyone feel bad because they can't hit the preferred target.

              Most period competitions are not so complex, modern game theory wasn't even invented yet, simple rewards were given for simply completing the task at hand - hitting the target. If you couldn't, you had to feel frustrated on your won and either quit (peer pressure usually kept that from happening) or get better - no more complicated than that. Unfortunately, most of us are more fragile than that. If we cannot achieve success in hittting a target in the first 10 mintues, we walk away from the sport. We are coddled and spoon-fed from introduction with short ranges and huge targets. (I wasn't, my first experience was in a real competition - a 30 yard wand shoot - and I was using borrowed gear. I didn't win - big surprise - but the rush of using a real wood bow stuck with me from that day on.) Then we are rushed into scoring competitions, so it is practically all we know.

              But the rules not only allow that, they inspire it.

              Don't like it, no sirrreee.

              Kaz
              phbbbbttttttt on it all...
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