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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Archery Proposal

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  • Siegfried
    ... Thank you for bringing this up, as it is a valid point. Very few people just interested in shooting, buy a $300 crossbow (or even a $150 one) and start
    Message 1 of 59 , Apr 2, 2006
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      Barak, thank you for contributing your thoughts ... a few followups:

      > Given many of the posts I
      > have seen on this list, the mass of SCA archers seem
      > to start off the same way I did, buying a recurve bow
      > at a
      > secondhand store or yard sale. A crossbow, like an
      > ELB,
      > is usually a tradeup, so you have a pool of more
      > experienced archers using a more stable firing
      > platform.

      Thank you for bringing this up, as it is a valid point. Very few
      people just 'interested' in shooting, buy a $300 crossbow (or even a
      $150 one) and start shooting. They start off with a $20 bow (or a $20
      loaner bow). After shooting a while they make the commitment to buy a
      more expensive crossbow.

      Also, something you didn't point out, is that the people who will pay
      $300 for a crossbow, are therefore committed to it, and will practice,
      alot. This is no different if you look at the high-level
      recurve/longbow archers. All of which I know, end up with $300 (or
      more) bows. (Though many may have more cheaply obtained ones, which
      are still of that calibur).

      If someone is going to commit that much money into a game, then
      typically they are going to be serious about it.

      Not to say that people with a $20 yardsale recurve aren't serious.
      But in general you will find alot of 'sunday archers' with the $20
      recurves. And very few 'sunday crossbowmen'.

      Though, I've actually known a few of those 'sunday crossbowmen'. And
      actually, their scores don't end up all that high. Again, lack of

      > First, if I am the
      > only
      > longbowman who shoots, I win my category by default;

      Another astute point. Or worse can happen. I was at an event a year
      (or 2?) ago that normally was not ever divided by class. A big
      archery event in Atlantia. (On Target for those in the know). It's a
      great fun event, lots of shooting. I decided to bring my crossbow
      that year, usually there are a large number of crossbow and handbow
      folks. Well, two things happened that year. First of all the field
      was divided into two prizes, one for crossbow and one for handbow.
      Secondly ... 3 crossbowmen showed up, including me.

      The other two? Well, one had been shooting for a year, the other had
      just started. They both turned to me and said: "Well, guess we know
      who is winning this category".

      It sucked for them, because they couldn't feel any edge of
      competition, being compared against others of their skill level. (At
      least having the scores on the same sheet/etc, let alone if skill
      level categories had been set up instead).

      Myself, I felt horrible. Just because I showed up, I would win my
      category. Where was the challenge for me? Where was the competition?
      I felt bad for the two 'new' crossbowmen who were officially
      competing against me. Had I brought my longbow, I would have pulled
      it out, but I didn't. And I still wanted to shoot of course. But
      much of the fun of the day was lost to me because this event was one
      of the ones I usually came with the intent of good hard competition.

      > second, Ludicrous the Bowman shows up, enters the
      > crossbow and recurve divisions and cleans up both.

      Also another problem. Especially when you note that many of the
      highest ranked shooters, in most Kingdoms, end up shooting both (all
      3? all 4?) ... They tend to have one they prefer, and are better in
      because of more practice. But still, they will be more than passingly
      good with the other one.

      > The problem with SCA archery competitions is that they
      > pit Sunday duffers like me against club pros and PGA
      > tour players on equal footing. I believe that paying
      > more attention to skill level and less to equipment
      > will give a far truer picture of individual archer's
      > ability and a more equitable distribution of prizes at
      > competitions.

      Well said. This is often accomplished (though definately in an
      incomplete and controversial in another way, manner) ... via grouping
      people by their RoyalRound rankings, and/or giving handicaps based
      upon the rankings.


      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
    • John edgerton
      Actually a more accurate term would be timed ends rather than speed ends. In the RR or IKAC the intent is to get as high a score as possible in the time
      Message 59 of 59 , Apr 3, 2006
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        Actually a more accurate term would be timed ends rather than speed
        ends. In the RR or IKAC the intent is to get as high a score as
        possible in the time given, rather than just getting off as many arrows
        as possible. It is better to shoot four and get twenty points, than to
        shoot nine and get ten points.

        Yes, when shooting into a mass of tightly packed warriors, where most
        any arrow will hit someone, plain speed is important. But, in the
        instance of less tightly packed targets it is a case of accuracy and
        rapid rate of release. When you are trying not to hit a shield or one
        of your own men while attempting to get an arrow or bolt into a visor
        slot, accuracy is important. And then getting off an other shot as
        fast as possible to take out an other opponent, before they kill you or
        one of your friends is reason to shoot rapidly and accurately. Aside
        from sieges, there were countless small scale engagements, aside from
        major battles where a rapid and accurate rate of shooting was
        paramount. In the hunt, when beaters are driving herds of deer toward
        you, killing as many deer as possible for the larder is also important.

        As to period speed ends. Since there is little documentation of just
        how period competitions or training were done, it is difficult to
        positivity state that they were either used or not used. However, I
        do have a copy of a period illustration of a german crossbow
        competition showing an hour glass in the foreground. If it was using
        for timing the shooting or to indicate when to break for lunch, it is
        impossible to say.


        On Monday, April 3, 2006, at 06:39 AM, J. Hughes wrote:

        > John edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote: I would like to comment
        > regarding the RR and IKAC. The speed ends were
        > not tacked on later. They were there from the beginning. I wanted the
        > competitions to also test the ability to shoot rapidly and accurately
        > as would have been needed in combat or in the hunt. And on the RR,
        > when I made up the rules for it, I gave little thought to crossbows.
        > Jon
        > Is there any evidence of the use of speed rounds in a period archery
        > competition or a schutzenfest? While rate of fire is useful when the
        > archer is in a defensive position receiving a mounted charge or in an
        > archery counter archery role, it is not at all appropriate for the
        > sort of warfare in most found in period: siege warfare, when only in a
        > storming do you have the target rich environment that rewards speed of
        > discharge.
        > Charles O'Connor
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