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Re: Archery Proposal

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  • Egil Haraldsson
    Well said and thank you. As I have stated, being new, I am learning and one thing I try not to do is jump on the soap box and yell foul. Your words of wisdom
    Message 1 of 59 , Apr 2, 2006
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      Well said and thank you. As I have stated, being new, I am learning
      and one thing I try not to do is jump on the soap box and yell foul.
      Your words of wisdom have made me concider those of my own and I
      pray they were met with the understanding of one under the tutelage
      of those whom have stood the test of time. I hope that as
      discussions move forward on this list, as in any list they will, and
      within our brother/sisterhood of archers, equal energy is enparted
      into the teaching of those skills needed to use any of the variety
      of bow used within the SCA.

      Aim true, shoot well!
      Egil

      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Well, and that makes the conversation go full circle, as it brings
      up
      > part of the heart of this discussion. There will always be people
      > within a division/classification, that will not like some
      equipment,
      > that someone is using, which they aren't using.
      >
      > Break into crossbows/handbows, and you will have the
      longbow/recurve
      > argument. Break those apart and you will have EnglishLongbow
      people
      > complaining about the modern Longbows, and you will have Period
      Mongol
      > Bow people complaining about Olympic Recurves. Break them
      further,
      > and you will still have issues.
      >
      > Heck, in the above break you will have crossbows fighting it out
      > between standing/sitting, Uber-fast-low-poundage-self-resetting-nut
      > vs. high-poundage-slow-span ones. etc.
      >
      > In the end, it comes down to this:
      > *) Go out there and shoot what equipment you would like to shoot,
      and
      > enjoy doing that. If you are upset that you aren't winning, then
      (A)
      > You aren't having fun, (B) Obviously winning is more important to
      you
      > than the current bow that you are shooting. Switch to a bow that
      you
      > 'think' has a better advantage, since that is what is important to
      > you.
      >
      > *) Designers of shoots should include long range, short range,
      timed,
      > untimed, known distance, unknown distance, wierd position, moving,
      one
      > shot, multiple shots, killzones, etc. A mix of all of those. If
      > mixed well, then it creates an even (enough) playing field between
      all
      > the different bow choices. Yes, every competition will end up
      > favoring one type or another, but such is life.
      >
      > Also, just for reference, (and I'm a crossbowman who also shoots
      > longbow & recurve) ...
      >
      > I have been at shoots that were designed so that it was physically
      > impossible for the crossbows to win. (Ask me privately if you
      want to
      > hear details).
      >
      > Also for reference, do take a look at what people have noted about
      the
      > 'highest scoring archers'.
      >
      > In the Winter Challenge, the highest are Recurve shooters. In the
      > Royal Rounds, the HIGHEST is a Recurve, and if you look in most
      > Kingdoms the distrabution of crossbows/handbows is around 50/50 in
      the
      > top spots.
      >
      > As another point of interest, Look at Atlantia's Kingdom Archery
      > Tourney. It's happened for 10 years running now, and always
      includes
      > a large mix of targets, as described above. The 'finals' are a
      set a
      > head-to-head competitions ... single elimination ... in a shoot
      that
      > involves both accuracy and speed. (Who is first to hit a number of
      > scattered targets).
      >
      > Currently the record stands as 7 handbow winners, and 3 crossbow
      > winners. Including one gentle who has won it both with handbow and
      > crossbow.
      >
      > Siegfried
      >
      >
      > On 4/2/06, loreleiElkins@... <loreleiElkins@...> wrote:
      > > easier solution is to let the crossbows and handbows shoot side
      by side,
      > > but simply tabulate the scores separately and provide two
      prizes, one for
      > > each category. This makes the contest entirely fair regardless
      whether or
      > > not a speed round is included.
      > >
      > > Do you mean a separate category for long, recurve, and crossbow
      with a prize
      > > for each or just crossbows all other handbows?
      >
      >
      > --
      >
      _____________________________________________________________________
      ____
      > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
      > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
      > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target
      Archery
      > http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
      >
    • John edgerton
      Actually a more accurate term would be timed ends rather than speed ends. In the RR or IKAC the intent is to get as high a score as possible in the time
      Message 59 of 59 , Apr 3, 2006
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        Actually a more accurate term would be timed ends rather than speed
        ends. In the RR or IKAC the intent is to get as high a score as
        possible in the time given, rather than just getting off as many arrows
        as possible. It is better to shoot four and get twenty points, than to
        shoot nine and get ten points.

        Yes, when shooting into a mass of tightly packed warriors, where most
        any arrow will hit someone, plain speed is important. But, in the
        instance of less tightly packed targets it is a case of accuracy and
        rapid rate of release. When you are trying not to hit a shield or one
        of your own men while attempting to get an arrow or bolt into a visor
        slot, accuracy is important. And then getting off an other shot as
        fast as possible to take out an other opponent, before they kill you or
        one of your friends is reason to shoot rapidly and accurately. Aside
        from sieges, there were countless small scale engagements, aside from
        major battles where a rapid and accurate rate of shooting was
        paramount. In the hunt, when beaters are driving herds of deer toward
        you, killing as many deer as possible for the larder is also important.

        As to period speed ends. Since there is little documentation of just
        how period competitions or training were done, it is difficult to
        positivity state that they were either used or not used. However, I
        do have a copy of a period illustration of a german crossbow
        competition showing an hour glass in the foreground. If it was using
        for timing the shooting or to indicate when to break for lunch, it is
        impossible to say.

        Jon

        On Monday, April 3, 2006, at 06:39 AM, J. Hughes wrote:

        >
        >
        > John edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote: I would like to comment
        > regarding the RR and IKAC. The speed ends were
        > not tacked on later. They were there from the beginning. I wanted the
        > competitions to also test the ability to shoot rapidly and accurately
        > as would have been needed in combat or in the hunt. And on the RR,
        > when I made up the rules for it, I gave little thought to crossbows.
        >
        > Jon
        >
        > Is there any evidence of the use of speed rounds in a period archery
        > competition or a schutzenfest? While rate of fire is useful when the
        > archer is in a defensive position receiving a mounted charge or in an
        > archery counter archery role, it is not at all appropriate for the
        > sort of warfare in most found in period: siege warfare, when only in a
        > storming do you have the target rich environment that rewards speed of
        > discharge.
        >
        > Charles O'Connor
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