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Re: [SCA-Archery] IKCAC Survey

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  • Siegfried
    Hello Arthur ... no problems, and no irk ing ... thanks for the feedback, and I ll give a little of my own. Do realize that all I was stating was: Here is what
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 14, 2005
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      Hello Arthur ... no problems, and no irk'ing ... thanks for the feedback,
      and I'll give a little of my own.

      Do realize that all I was stating was: Here is what I could see being done
      and therefore making the IKCAC something that would be shot more. I didn't
      say that it would make it a better shoot. But the fact remains that it is
      not being shot, that often at all.

      IMO, part of the reason is that if I'm bothering to bring out my armor, and
      my CA equipment, and get some others to do so as well, I'd rather shoot each
      other, than at a target. I mean afterall, that's kinda the point.

      MILORD Siegfried SAID :
      > >I am CC'ing the IKCAC mailing list
      > FIRST . THERE'S AN IKCAC LIST ??


      Yes, SCA-IKCAC@yahoogroups.com

      It was started a while back when there was arguments about discussions about
      the IKCAC, and whether they should be on the Archery list or the
      MissileCombat list. So Lorenzo started an IKCAC mailing list just for
      discussions about it.

      >A) Remove the need to wear armor
      > > B) Remove the 2 minute time limit on 'slow rounds'
      > > C) Remove the drop zone shoot
      > > Third (Yes, 3rd), if the drop zone requirement is removed ... I think we
      > could do away with spotters.
      > > D) Remove the Pavise Round
      >
      > SECOND .
      > OK, LETS SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT ??
      > YOU WISH TO HAVE AN IKCAC , WITH NO ARMOR ? NO STRESS ? NO LONG RANGE (
      > FIRE FOR EFFECT ) ? NO EXTRA EYES ON THE RANGE ?AND NO HIDE BE HIND THE
      > OBSTACLE ??
      >
      > DOESN'T SOUND VERY MUCH LIKE ANY COMBAT ARCHERY I'VE EVER GOTTEN TO SEE .
      > IF YOU REMOVE 75% OF A SHOOT , WHY NOT JUST MAKE A DIFFERENT SHOOT TO
      > BEGIN
      > WITH .


      I think I was proposing making it a different shoot.

      As to some of your specific points:

      > NO ARMOR

      Correct, for the sole purpose that it makes it easier and more inviting to
      get people to shoot it. I see one of the great potential uses of the IKCAC,
      is getting people interested in CA. Requiring them to already have the armor
      in the first place (or borrow ill-fitting armor), doesn't do that.

      Now granted, this changes the 'nature' of the shoot. Since one of the
      biggest differences between shooting in armor or not, is your helm, and
      therefore changes to your anchor point and/or cheek point (crossbow).

      It's not a perfect solution. But it would get more people shooting it. Which
      was the original question.

      One variation would be to require just a helm. That gives the biggest change
      in vision and draw points, but without requiring all the other armor that if
      designed well doesn't get in your way anyway. Fairly simple still, just
      dropping a helm on someone's head. I still think more people would shoot it
      without the helm, but 'just helm' would be a good compromise perhaps.

      > NO STRESS

      No stress? Where was there stress in the first place? The only 'stress' that
      would have existed, was in the speed rounds, which I've left in.

      Where was stress removed?

      > NO LONG RANGE

      Actually, one of my variations left the 40yd in, which is currently the
      longest range shot at anyway in the IKCAC. Another variation just dropped it
      to 30yds.

      And (read lower)

      > NO HIDE BEHIND THE OBSTACLE

      Part of my point was that I've never in actual CA hidden, on my knees,
      behind an obstacle. Around a wall/turret, sure, but that's standing. If you
      want to add that into the competition, I'm fine with it; however, that
      actually makes setup harder, because now you don't just need a pavise, you
      need a 7' wall.

      And (lower)

      > DOESN'T SOUND VERY MUCH LIKE ANY COMBAT ARCHERY I'VE EVER GOTTEN TO SEE

      Here is the (lower) part. I guess we see very different Combat Archery.
      Since most all of what I see is at 20ft away. Up close firing. Even at
      Pennsic when using the fort, the longest shots are probably 20, MAYBE 30 yds
      ... (though 30 yds at a 45 degree angle)

      And again, never once seen a Pavise in use, except when I tried mine, and
      it's been in my shed ever since.

      But one of the main points to me, is that if you are wanting to simulate
      Combat Archery, shoot at each other. the IKCAC is a Target Archery
      Competition using Combat equipment. Therefore, if we run it more like a
      Target Archery Competition, it will get more people shooting it.

      Again, I will make the point, that if I happen to get a few other CA'ers to
      show up, and therefore to have enough to make running the current IKCAC
      worth while, I'm going to practice shooting at each other, which is a much
      better setup for actual combat practice anyway. Moving targets, constantly
      changing distances, etc.


      >Some other benefits of doing this:
      > >
      > > A) If done this way, get rid of all the wierd scoring rules. Like the
      > > IKAC/etc, just have one set of scores. 1 point for man, 2 points for
      > heart,
      > > 4 points for face. That's it, done, end of story. It will be less
      > confusing
      > > when you go to score.
      > >
      > > B) If done this way and kept at 10/20/30 ... then I see a REALLY BIG
      > > benefit. Do you see it? Ok, do you see it better if at the same time you
      > > switch it to be shot with 2 6 arrow ends, and 2 30 second timed rounds?
      > > Well, I certainly do. Now it's the same as the IKAC. EXACTLY. The only
      > > difference is the slightly closer targets.
      >
      > IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU JUST WANT TO SHOOT AN IKAC WITH COMBAT ARROWS ??


      Essentially, yes, that is where I realized my mind was going after all that.
      Again, this is all in response to: "If you didn't shoot an IKCAC this year,
      why not"

      I'm stating why. Because it is run in a 'middle state', that requires
      essentially a bunch of authorized CA'ers to get together to do CA, but then
      instead to turn around and shoot at a wooden guy instead.

      My thought was, make it more like a target tournament, and easier to shoot,
      and more people will do so.

      SHOULD WE LOOK FORWARD TO SHOOTING A COMBAT IKAC WITH OUR 70 # RECURVES ??


      No, I wouldn't want that at all. It defeats the purpose of using your
      regular CA equipment, and of it being some semblance of practicing.

      Again, I think it would still serve a good purpose, of getting people
      interested and seeing how much fun CA can be, and still being a good
      practice forum for getting used to your bow/ammo ... in a much more target
      based environment.

      Siegfried


      --
      _________________________________________________________________________
      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lord Caedmon Wilson
      Personally, I consider the IKCAC a target competition...because it is. The target is a wooden man, and the bow is simply a different category from bow I use to
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 14, 2005
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        Personally, I consider the IKCAC a target competition...because it is.
        The target is a wooden man, and the bow is simply a different
        category from bow I use to fire into a paper target.

        I didn't shoot one this year becasue I failed to get up to Baron
        Alan's house to shoot one. He was off saving the world this year.
        All this time and I still don't own my own bow.

        I am not authorized in CA. Just never had the time to do it.

        For my own curiosity, I was asking the original question becasue the
        IKCAC always gets a low response of scores. I am trying a combat
        version of my TWIC contest, and I am trying to learn lessons from the
        archery side as to why it is rarely shot. Though, I am of the opinion
        that if even one score is submitted, it is worth it.

        So, there are three aspects to the IKCAC: The target, the bow, the armor.

        For the target, is it easy to construct? Is it durable? If the
        answer to these is "no", then a contest may not reach great success.
        If each of us had to draw out our own 5-color target to shoot a normal
        IKAC, would we?

        For the bow, it requires a different aiming strategy. Combat arrows
        can suffer from unpredictable flight pathes. They get bent, fletching
        moves...and where I can put 6 bolts from my target crossbow in the
        gold at 20 yards, the combat crossbow may vary a tad more.

        The armor seems to be the aspect that restricts the shooting the most.
        Is the effort of putting on armor worth the shooting of the contest?
        The IKCAC wants to simulate shooting in combat, so I can having armor
        as a requirement, with the gloves on and helm. So, I can understand
        this requirement.

        That is all for now, please keep the comments coming.

        --
        Lord Caedmon Wilson

        Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal

        Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum
        saxum immane mittam.
      • Cian of Storvik
        No one in my area has the IKCAC target built (well, I say my area , when I could drive about an hour to Siegfrieds and shoot at his - I assume he has one).
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 14, 2005
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          No one in my area has the IKCAC target built (well, I say "my area",
          when I could drive about an hour to Siegfrieds and shoot at his - I
          assume he has one). I'd really like to build an IKCAC, but have had
          too many other projects.
          Do we need a combat archery marshal to score IKCAC?
          That would keep us in the Storvik, Atlantia (Washington DC) Area from
          shooting it. We are currently trying to bolster target archery
          marshals, and I don't want to get into combat archery marshal #s.

          I really like the idea of a scored combat round. It would allow
          archers to gauge how their aim/speed with combat rounds is improving
          (a benefit that target archers get), and could increase their
          confidence on the field.
          Though I must agree with Siegfried that there are a lot of ends to be
          shot. Getting all geared up increases the set-up time. And turns a 30
          minute shoot into a 1 hour long shoot. (A royal round takes abotu 20
          minutes with a good number of archers <-I'm not a huge fan of the
          royal round, but one thing I like about it is that it's the perfect
          length of time). In my limited experience, lobbed shots are wasted
          arrows, so I see Siegfried's point there. Espec. when you consider
          that archers are often restricted from being in non-Rez battles. You
          tend to hold on to arrows rather then shoot blindly at "possible"
          targets or targets that are standing right next to the rez line.
          We are currently trying to field about a dozen combat archers locally,
          and are organizing a monthy practice 2nd sunday of each month
          <COU>shameless plug <UGH>, and I would like to bring out an IKCAC
          target to shoot at. The guys that want to come out and watch us would
          get a kick out of being able to have something to shoot at, instead of
          us offering to let them "lob a few arrows down range".
          Also, we wouldn't need to drag out a combat archery marshal to just
          take pot-shots at the IKAC target.
          You never know....let an on-looker shoot your combat bow a few times,
          and your field of 12 combat archers just might turn into 13. :)
          -Cian
        • Siegfried
          ... Yes, I do. Dealla has one also. Do we need a combat archery marshal to score IKCAC? At least in Atlantia, while I am Kingdom Target Archery Marshal. No.
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 14, 2005
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            >
            > No one in my area has the IKCAC target built (well, I say "my area",
            > when I could drive about an hour to Siegfrieds and shoot at his - I
            > assume he has one).


            Yes, I do. Dealla has one also.

            Do we need a combat archery marshal to score IKCAC?


            At least in Atlantia, while I am Kingdom Target Archery Marshal. No. You are
            not shooting at a person; therefore, it is target archery.

            And I give a dispensation for the 'non target legal ammo' (not wood shafts
            and not field points) for the purpose of this competition.

            So a Target Archery Marshal can run it.

            However, it is the responsibility of said Target Archery Marshal, and the
            archers shooting, to ensrue that their equipment meets the requirements of
            the competition.

            This happens to be easier, if someone happens to be a Combat Archery Marshal
            ;) (PS. I'll be happy to give the CA Marshal class if ya wanna take it!)

            Though I must agree with Siegfried that there are a lot of ends to be
            > shot. Getting all geared up increases the set-up time. And turns a 30
            > minute shoot into a 1 hour long shoot.


            And in my experience, it's more like a 2 hour long shoot. Since only 1 maybe
            2 people can shoot it at a time, plus extra time gathering ammo (always seem
            to be in high grass when shooting).

            etc. It takes a while to run a few people through it as it is currently
            setup.

            (A royal round takes abotu 20
            > minutes with a good number of archers <-I'm not a huge fan of the
            > royal round, but one thing I like about it is that it's the perfect
            > length of time).


            I agree actually. RR is a nice length. It's one reason why at practices in
            my area we might run 4 RR's, but rarely an IKAC, and when it is an IKAC,
            it's just me usually :)

            Why? Cause we will decide to run a RR, then since it goes quick, run
            another. At that would we could run a IKAC, but most archers are wanting to
            do another RR because one of them got a really good score on one part and
            hey, look at that, they wanna try again. They are encouraged, I don't wanna
            stop 'em ;)

            Or in my case, I'll be counting it as an IKAC until I mess up one of the 2
            RR's, and decide never mind, and just shoot another RR.

            You never know....let an on-looker shoot your combat bow a few times,
            > and your field of 12 combat archers just might turn into 13. :)
            >

            Agreed.

            Siegfried

            --
            _________________________________________________________________________
            THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
            Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
            Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
            http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Siegfried
            ... If each of us had to draw out our own 5-color target to shoot a normal ... Hrmmm, interesting point. Since I myself tend to use a regular RR target for
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 14, 2005
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              >
              > For the target, is it easy to construct? Is it durable? If the
              > answer to these is "no", then a contest may not reach great success.

              If each of us had to draw out our own 5-color target to shoot a normal
              > IKAC, would we?


              Hrmmm, interesting point. Since I myself tend to use a regular RR target for
              shooting the Period IKAC, because I'm lazy. If I HAD to make the extra
              target, well, I'd still do it, but rarely. Mostly because I like the ability
              to shoot RR's and IKAC at the same time.

              So, for the IKAC target. It's 'easy enough' to construct, it's very durable
              (if made right) ...

              But you have a point, it takes a little effort to make one, but once you
              have it lasts.

              For the bow, it requires a different aiming strategy. Combat arrows
              > can suffer from unpredictable flight pathes. They get bent, fletching
              > moves...and where I can put 6 bolts from my target crossbow in the
              > gold at 20 yards, the combat crossbow may vary a tad more.


              Heh, at least with my combat bolts, they each seem to have their own life.

              The armor seems to be the aspect that restricts the shooting the most.
              > Is the effort of putting on armor worth the shooting of the contest?
              > The IKCAC wants to simulate shooting in combat, so I can having armor
              > as a requirement, with the gloves on and helm. So, I can understand
              > this requirement.


              Ahhh, except because the rules for SCA Archer Armor has escallated, and yet
              the IKCAC rules have stayed the same, and are written as a 'except for'
              standard ...

              The IKCAC now requires more armor:

              The IKCAC current requires: Knees, Elbows, Helm, Gloves, Shoes, Gorget

              I think it would be a different story if it only required a Helm & Gloves.

              Siegfried


              --
              _________________________________________________________________________
              THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
              Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
              Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
              http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Cian of Storvik
              ... Gorget. I think it would be a different story if it only required a Helm & Gloves.Siegfried I ll let someone borrow my helmet, my bow, my arrows, my
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 14, 2005
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                >>>The IKCAC current requires: Knees, Elbows, Helm, Gloves, Shoes,
                Gorget. I think it would be a different story if it only required a
                Helm & Gloves.Siegfried

                I'll let someone borrow my helmet, my bow, my arrows, my gauntlets;
                but I'm drawing a line at lending out my nut armor.
                -Cian
              • Blackmoon
                GREETINGS ... TRUE, ( I JUST CHECKED POSTED SCORES ) ... and ... each ... IN MY SECTION OF THE KINGDOM ( ANSTEORRA - NORTHERN ) THERE AREN T MANY COMBAT
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 14, 2005
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                  GREETINGS

                  >Do realize that all I was stating was: Here is what I could see being done
                  > and therefore making the IKCAC something that would be shot more. I didn't
                  > say that it would make it a better shoot. But the fact remains that it is
                  > not being shot, that often at all.

                  TRUE, ( I JUST CHECKED POSTED SCORES )

                  > IMO, part of the reason is that if I'm bothering to bring out my armor,
                  and
                  > my CA equipment, and get some others to do so as well, I'd rather shoot
                  each
                  > other, than at a target. I mean afterall, that's kinda the point.

                  IN MY SECTION OF THE KINGDOM ( ANSTEORRA - NORTHERN ) THERE AREN'T MANY
                  COMBAT ARCHERS , AND EVEN FEWER COMBAT MARSHALS , EVEN THOUGH THE
                  AUTHORIZING MARSHAL FOR C.A. IN THE NORTH TRIES TO MAKE EVERY EVENT , AND
                  WORKS WITH PEOPLE AT EVENTS THAT DON'T HAVE ANY MELEE COMBAT .

                  B.T.W. , I'M NOT CERTIFIED AS A COMBAT ARCHER , OR C.A. MARSHAL AT THIS TIME
                  .
                  BUT I TRY TO TALK THE COMBAT ARCHERS INTO SHOWING UP AND PRACTICING AT
                  DIFFERENT RANGES ( ONLY ONE EVER SHOWS UP ) , EVEN IF ONLY TO SHARPEN THEIR
                  ACCURACY .
                  BUT THE BARONIAL ARCHERY MARSHAL DOES HOLD REGULAR TARGET PRACTICES HERE
                  I HAVE THE LUXURY OF HAVING THE SPACE IN MY BACK YARD TO KEEP AN IKCAC
                  TARGET AND BOX, 2 SAUNDERS MAT BUTT STANDS , AND A COMPLETELY SEPARATE
                  THROWN WEAPONS RANGE , STANDING AT ALL TIMES

                  >As to some of your specific points:
                  >
                  > > NO ARMOR
                  >
                  > Correct, for the sole purpose that it makes it easier and more inviting to
                  > get people to shoot it. I see one of the great potential uses of the
                  IKCAC,
                  > is getting people interested in CA. Requiring them to already have the
                  armor
                  > in the first place (or borrow ill-fitting armor), doesn't do that.

                  A VERY VALID POINT , ONE I HADN'T THOUGHT OF .

                  >> > NO STRESS
                  >
                  > No stress? Where was there stress in the first place? The only 'stress'
                  that
                  > would have existed, was in the speed rounds, which I've left in.
                  >

                  THE STRESS FOR ME IS REMEMBERING TO SLOW DOWN .
                  > Where was stress removed?

                  I KNOW THE STOP WATCH IS RUNNING , AND HAVE TO FIGHT THE URGE TO SHOOT AS
                  FAST AS I CAN , THEN STAND AROUND FOR THE LAST MIN. WITH 2 MIN. YOU HAVE ALL
                  KINDS OF TIME ( 10 SECONDS PER ARROW ) AND EVEN THE SPEED IS NO RACE .
                  OF COURSE THERE IS ALWAYS THE STRESS FROM EXPECTING THE COMBAT ARROW TO FLY
                  RIGHT OFF OF A LITTLE 30 # BOW , WHEN YOUR USED TO SHOOTING 60 + #

                  >> > NO HIDE BEHIND THE OBSTACLE
                  >
                  > Part of my point was that I've never in actual CA hidden, on my knees,
                  > behind an obstacle. Around a wall/turret, sure, but that's standing. If
                  you
                  > want to add that into the competition, I'm fine with it; however, that
                  > actually makes setup harder, because now you don't just need a pavise, you
                  > need a 7' wall.
                  ~
                  >And again, never once seen a Pavise in use, except when I tried mine, and
                  > it's been in my shed ever since.

                  THERE IS A HOUSE OF COMBAT ARCHERS DOWN SOUTH , THAT I'M TOLD USES PAVISES
                  OFTEN , GREATLY INCREASING THEIR EFFECTIVE NESS IN CASTLE BATTLES .

                  >> My thought was, make it more like a target tournament, and easier to
                  shoot,
                  > and more people will do so.

                  MIGHT EVEN WORK .

                  >> Again, I think it would still serve a good purpose, of getting people
                  > interested and seeing how much fun CA can be, and still being a good
                  > practice forum for getting used to your bow/ammo ... in a much more target
                  > based environment.
                  >
                  > Siegfried

                  WELL , I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT YOU HAVE SOME VERY VALID POINTS .
                  AND I HOPE THAT WHATEVER THE FUTURE OF IKCAC HOLDS , THAT IT STAYS FUN .

                  BE SAFE, BE HAPPY, HAVE FUN
                  ARTHUR BLACKMOON

                  PS. THANX FOR THE LINK

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Siegfried" <SiegfriedFaust@...>
                  To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>; <SCA-IKCAC@yahoogroups.com>;
                  <ikac@...>
                  Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:21 AM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] IKCAC Survey


                  > Hello Arthur ... no problems, and no irk'ing ... thanks for the feedback,
                  > and I'll give a little of my own.
                  >
                  > Do realize that all I was stating was: Here is what I could see being done
                  > and therefore making the IKCAC something that would be shot more. I didn't
                  > say that it would make it a better shoot. But the fact remains that it is
                  > not being shot, that often at all.
                  >
                  > IMO, part of the reason is that if I'm bothering to bring out my armor,
                  and
                  > my CA equipment, and get some others to do so as well, I'd rather shoot
                  each
                  > other, than at a target. I mean afterall, that's kinda the point.
                  >
                  > MILORD Siegfried SAID :
                  > > >I am CC'ing the IKCAC mailing list
                  > > FIRST . THERE'S AN IKCAC LIST ??
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes, SCA-IKCAC@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > It was started a while back when there was arguments about discussions
                  about
                  > the IKCAC, and whether they should be on the Archery list or the
                  > MissileCombat list. So Lorenzo started an IKCAC mailing list just for
                  > discussions about it.
                  >
                  > >A) Remove the need to wear armor
                  > > > B) Remove the 2 minute time limit on 'slow rounds'
                  > > > C) Remove the drop zone shoot
                  > > > Third (Yes, 3rd), if the drop zone requirement is removed ... I think
                  we
                  > > could do away with spotters.
                  > > > D) Remove the Pavise Round
                  > >
                  > > SECOND .
                  > > OK, LETS SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT ??
                  > > YOU WISH TO HAVE AN IKCAC , WITH NO ARMOR ? NO STRESS ? NO LONG RANGE (
                  > > FIRE FOR EFFECT ) ? NO EXTRA EYES ON THE RANGE ?AND NO HIDE BE HIND THE
                  > > OBSTACLE ??
                  > >
                  > > DOESN'T SOUND VERY MUCH LIKE ANY COMBAT ARCHERY I'VE EVER GOTTEN TO SEE
                  .
                  > > IF YOU REMOVE 75% OF A SHOOT , WHY NOT JUST MAKE A DIFFERENT SHOOT TO
                  > > BEGIN
                  > > WITH .
                  >
                  >
                  > I think I was proposing making it a different shoot.
                  >
                  > As to some of your specific points:
                  >
                  > > NO ARMOR
                  >
                  > Correct, for the sole purpose that it makes it easier and more inviting to
                  > get people to shoot it. I see one of the great potential uses of the
                  IKCAC,
                  > is getting people interested in CA. Requiring them to already have the
                  armor
                  > in the first place (or borrow ill-fitting armor), doesn't do that.
                  >
                  > Now granted, this changes the 'nature' of the shoot. Since one of the
                  > biggest differences between shooting in armor or not, is your helm, and
                  > therefore changes to your anchor point and/or cheek point (crossbow).
                  >
                  > It's not a perfect solution. But it would get more people shooting it.
                  Which
                  > was the original question.
                  >
                  > One variation would be to require just a helm. That gives the biggest
                  change
                  > in vision and draw points, but without requiring all the other armor that
                  if
                  > designed well doesn't get in your way anyway. Fairly simple still, just
                  > dropping a helm on someone's head. I still think more people would shoot
                  it
                  > without the helm, but 'just helm' would be a good compromise perhaps.
                  >
                  > > NO STRESS
                  >
                  > No stress? Where was there stress in the first place? The only 'stress'
                  that
                  > would have existed, was in the speed rounds, which I've left in.
                  >
                  > Where was stress removed?
                  >
                  > > NO LONG RANGE
                  >
                  > Actually, one of my variations left the 40yd in, which is currently the
                  > longest range shot at anyway in the IKCAC. Another variation just dropped
                  it
                  > to 30yds.
                  >
                  > And (read lower)
                  >
                  > > NO HIDE BEHIND THE OBSTACLE
                  >
                  > Part of my point was that I've never in actual CA hidden, on my knees,
                  > behind an obstacle. Around a wall/turret, sure, but that's standing. If
                  you
                  > want to add that into the competition, I'm fine with it; however, that
                  > actually makes setup harder, because now you don't just need a pavise, you
                  > need a 7' wall.
                  >
                  > And (lower)
                  >
                  > > DOESN'T SOUND VERY MUCH LIKE ANY COMBAT ARCHERY I'VE EVER GOTTEN TO SEE
                  >
                  > Here is the (lower) part. I guess we see very different Combat Archery.
                  > Since most all of what I see is at 20ft away. Up close firing. Even at
                  > Pennsic when using the fort, the longest shots are probably 20, MAYBE 30
                  yds
                  > ... (though 30 yds at a 45 degree angle)
                  >
                  > And again, never once seen a Pavise in use, except when I tried mine, and
                  > it's been in my shed ever since.
                  >
                  > But one of the main points to me, is that if you are wanting to simulate
                  > Combat Archery, shoot at each other. the IKCAC is a Target Archery
                  > Competition using Combat equipment. Therefore, if we run it more like a
                  > Target Archery Competition, it will get more people shooting it.
                  >
                  > Again, I will make the point, that if I happen to get a few other CA'ers
                  to
                  > show up, and therefore to have enough to make running the current IKCAC
                  > worth while, I'm going to practice shooting at each other, which is a much
                  > better setup for actual combat practice anyway. Moving targets, constantly
                  > changing distances, etc.
                  >
                  >
                  > >Some other benefits of doing this:
                  > > >
                  > > > A) If done this way, get rid of all the wierd scoring rules. Like the
                  > > > IKAC/etc, just have one set of scores. 1 point for man, 2 points for
                  > > heart,
                  > > > 4 points for face. That's it, done, end of story. It will be less
                  > > confusing
                  > > > when you go to score.
                  > > >
                  > > > B) If done this way and kept at 10/20/30 ... then I see a REALLY BIG
                  > > > benefit. Do you see it? Ok, do you see it better if at the same time
                  you
                  > > > switch it to be shot with 2 6 arrow ends, and 2 30 second timed
                  rounds?
                  > > > Well, I certainly do. Now it's the same as the IKAC. EXACTLY. The only
                  > > > difference is the slightly closer targets.
                  > >
                  > > IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU JUST WANT TO SHOOT AN IKAC WITH COMBAT ARROWS ??
                  >
                  >
                  > Essentially, yes, that is where I realized my mind was going after all
                  that.
                  > Again, this is all in response to: "If you didn't shoot an IKCAC this
                  year,
                  > why not"
                  >
                  > I'm stating why. Because it is run in a 'middle state', that requires
                  > essentially a bunch of authorized CA'ers to get together to do CA, but
                  then
                  > instead to turn around and shoot at a wooden guy instead.
                  >
                  > My thought was, make it more like a target tournament, and easier to
                  shoot,
                  > and more people will do so.
                  >
                  > SHOULD WE LOOK FORWARD TO SHOOTING A COMBAT IKAC WITH OUR 70 # RECURVES ??
                  >
                  >
                  > No, I wouldn't want that at all. It defeats the purpose of using your
                  > regular CA equipment, and of it being some semblance of practicing.
                  >
                  > Again, I think it would still serve a good purpose, of getting people
                  > interested and seeing how much fun CA can be, and still being a good
                  > practice forum for getting used to your bow/ammo ... in a much more target
                  > based environment.
                  >
                  > Siegfried
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > _________________________________________________________________________
                  > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                  > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                  > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                  > http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                  >
                  >
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                • latorrej@aol.com
                  I will add a vote to Siegfried s concept for retooling the IKCAC. In the West Kingdom, we usually only shoot at my target once or twice a year, if that (none
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 14, 2005
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                    I will add a vote to Siegfried's concept for retooling the IKCAC. In the
                    West Kingdom, we usually only shoot at my target once or twice a year, if that
                    (none this year). Being able to set it up on a regular target range would be a
                    big advantage.

                    I would stick with the requirement for a helm and gloves, which I think are
                    the signficant impediments anyway. Once you learn to shoot with those, you're
                    most of the way to acquiring the skills needed for combat anyway (though you'd
                    still have a lot to learn about rules, safety and tactics).

                    As to the ranges, I agree with eliminating the pavise rounds and box scoring.
                    We might also want to think about divisions within the shoot. The obvious
                    one is shafted vs. tubular arrows. Shafted arrows could be shot at 40/30/20
                    yards, and tubular at 30/20/10 (reflecting, probably, the actual practice in the
                    field).

                    Handbows and crossbows could be separated, but I would prefer not to do that.
                    After all, we're shooting together on the field. With timed rounds at each
                    distance, I would be happy to compete against crossbows with my handbow.

                    I believe that, with these changes, and a couple more targets (Jon, Dauid, I
                    mean you), we could get dozens of scores from the West Kingdom - all of our
                    experienced combat archers and a lot of folks who are not combat authorized
                    (with some being enticed to become authorized). This would be a good outcome.

                    Seems to me that the competition will still take longer to shoot than a Royal
                    Round. Besides the extra speed rounds, you can't really have more than one
                    person shooting at at time (was it your arrow or mine that hit the heart?).
                    Still, it would go significantly faster than it does now.

                    I'm sure that there are other tweaks that would help us revitalize the IKCAC,
                    and hope to hear them.

                    Yours in service,
                    Joseph de la Tour
                    West Kingdom


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Frederick Fenters
                    I m not exactly one of the people Caedmon is looking for, but I will respond, anyway. I do not shoot IKCAC because I have given up my Heavy Weapons
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 15, 2005
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                      I'm not exactly one of the people Caedmon is looking for, but I will
                      respond, anyway. I do not shoot IKCAC because I have given up my Heavy
                      Weapons Authorization. Health issues are the reason. Second, I find
                      shooting at only circles boring. I do not condemn those who like the easy
                      comparisons, just do not myself enjoy them.



                      I very seldom have a 60 cm target out at an event. Usually trying to do
                      something fun, challenging, and different. As an example, at Squires'
                      Revolt I had "Rats" climbing a rope as a target, the always popular
                      balloon pop, a 3D deer, turkey heads poking out of the brush, squirrels on a
                      tree limb, and a simulated tree stump.



                      Padraig MacRaighne



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Siegfried
                      ... I dunno about that one. Given that I know 1000 # crossbows with siloflex bolts that are deadly at 40yds. And My shafted bolts still seem to want to wobble
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 15, 2005
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                        >
                        > As to the ranges, I agree with eliminating the pavise rounds and box
                        > scoring.
                        > We might also want to think about divisions within the shoot. The obvious
                        > one is shafted vs. tubular arrows. Shafted arrows could be shot at
                        > 40/30/20
                        > yards, and tubular at 30/20/10 (reflecting, probably, the actual practice
                        > in the
                        > field).


                        I dunno about that one. Given that I know 1000"# crossbows with siloflex
                        bolts that are deadly at 40yds.

                        And My shafted bolts still seem to want to wobble a bit and determine their
                        own course at that distance.

                        *shrug* I think for now, the idea would be to get it such that it is shot
                        more.

                        Later, when there are tons of scores in there and there is an obvious
                        breakdown, well, then make different divisions.


                        --
                        _________________________________________________________________________
                        THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                        Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                        Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                        http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Cian of Storvik
                        You guys keep talking about shooting at round circles. I thought the IKCAC target was a man shaped/sized target with head and chest target points, as well as a
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 15, 2005
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                          You guys keep talking about shooting at round circles. I thought the
                          IKCAC target was a man shaped/sized target with head and chest target
                          points, as well as a drop zone target.
                          Are you just refering to the chest and head targets as circles?
                          -Cian
                        • Siegfried
                          At least if I said circles, then that s what I meant. The heart section of an IKCAC target is a floppy circle. The face is a floppy square.. Siegfried ...
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 15, 2005
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                            At least if I said circles, then that's what I meant. The 'heart' section of
                            an IKCAC target is a 'floppy' circle.

                            The face is a floppy square..

                            Siegfried


                            On 11/15/05, Cian of Storvik <firespiter@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > You guys keep talking about shooting at round circles. I thought the
                            > IKCAC target was a man shaped/sized target with head and chest target
                            > points, as well as a drop zone target.
                            > Are you just refering to the chest and head targets as circles?
                            > -Cian
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                            > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                            > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                            >
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                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
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                            >


                            --
                            _________________________________________________________________________
                            THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                            Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                            Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                            http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Cian of Storvik
                            Okay! Several times, references were made to L. Caedmon s enquiry about the lack of IKCAC turnout that confused me. First it was that someone said, if we
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 15, 2005
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                              Okay! Several times, references were made to L. Caedmon's enquiry
                              about the lack of IKCAC turnout that confused me. First it was that
                              someone said, if we remove the pavise and the drop-zone target then
                              you're basically running the IKAC. Then someone mentioned having
                              the "period concentric circle target" made was an issue. Then someone
                              just said that they don't often bring 60 cm targets to their shoots.
                              Oh and also, someone said something about getting all geared up and
                              needing several people (marshal and marker) to shoot at "the circles".
                              Perhaps there are 2 different discussions going on here under the
                              heading IKCAC survey, and I just was getting them muddled.
                              -Cian
                            • John edgerton
                              I could see requiring just helm and hand protection. Those are the two main pieces of gear that make a difference between combat shooting and target shooting.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 15, 2005
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                                I could see requiring just helm and hand protection. Those are the two
                                main pieces of gear that make a difference between combat shooting and
                                target shooting.

                                As to the pavise. You do not need a regular pavise. The rules allow
                                the use of two four foot tall sticks to represent it.

                                Time can be saved on setting up the box around the target by
                                permanently attaching the four stakes to the string. Then no measuring
                                is required.

                                The drop zone was needed when the max range was fifty yards. This
                                evened out the difference between shafted and golf tube arrows. The
                                shafted were more accurate and could usually hit the target. But, if
                                they missed they would tend to land outside of the box. The golf tubes
                                handbow arrows were less apt to hit the target. But, would have more
                                of a chance of dropping into the box. At forty yard as is now used, I
                                think the golf tubes may land outside the box more often.

                                The IKCAC was set up to test combat archery skills using a target style
                                competition. Change it too much and it no longer tests combat archery
                                skills.

                                All this is quite interesting. But, unless Andre wants to make some
                                changes. It is all moot.

                                Jon
                              • latorrej@aol.com
                                In a message dated 11/15/2005 7:21:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, SiegfriedFaust@gmail.com writes: I dunno about that one. Given that I know 1000 # crossbows
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 15, 2005
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                                  In a message dated 11/15/2005 7:21:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                  SiegfriedFaust@... writes:
                                  I dunno about that one. Given that I know 1000"# crossbows with siloflex
                                  bolts that are deadly at 40yds.
                                  OK by me. I would like to see the shafted arrows shot at 20/30/40, and am
                                  fine with whatever the tubular shooters prefer. If it's the same distances,
                                  there need not be two divisions..

                                  Joseph de la Tour


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Siegfried
                                  I prefer seeing the 10yd stay in, personally. As it more accurately reflects typical battlefield situations in any static line battle. And really test the how
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 16, 2005
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                                    I prefer seeing the 10yd stay in, personally.

                                    As it more accurately reflects typical battlefield situations in any static
                                    line battle. And really test the 'how often can you hit the face/chest'
                                    part.

                                    Siegfried


                                    On 11/16/05, latorrej@... <latorrej@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > In a message dated 11/15/2005 7:21:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                    > SiegfriedFaust@... writes:
                                    > I dunno about that one. Given that I know 1000"# crossbows with siloflex
                                    > bolts that are deadly at 40yds.
                                    > OK by me. I would like to see the shafted arrows shot at 20/30/40, and am
                                    > fine with whatever the tubular shooters prefer. If it's the same
                                    > distances,
                                    > there need not be two divisions..
                                    >
                                    > Joseph de la Tour
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                                    > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                                    > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    --
                                    _________________________________________________________________________
                                    THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                    Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                    Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                    http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Siegfried
                                    ... Yup, understood. But just noting that s still something else that needs setup. Also, I ve never really liked that concept, 100%. Just because it changes
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 16, 2005
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                                      >
                                      > As to the pavise. You do not need a regular pavise. The rules allow
                                      > the use of two four foot tall sticks to represent it.


                                      Yup, understood. But just noting that's still something else that needs
                                      setup. Also, I've never really liked that concept, 100%. Just because it
                                      changes the shoot. You get an advantage by using the 2 sticks, as you can
                                      focus on the target, aim, then just lean or stand enough to shoot around the
                                      stick and release.

                                      If using a real pavise, you can't see well enough to specifically aim, until
                                      you are already around the side.

                                      *shrug*

                                      Time can be saved on setting up the box around the target by
                                      > permanently attaching the four stakes to the string. Then no measuring
                                      > is required.


                                      Actually, that's a good point. Though to really make it work well, you would
                                      also need to attach at least one diagonal as well, to ensure that it stays
                                      square. I hadn't thought of that.

                                      The IKCAC was set up to test combat archery skills using a target style
                                      > competition. Change it too much and it no longer tests combat archery
                                      > skills.


                                      I dunno, depends on your POV. And I guess that was part of my original
                                      point. At least in my experience ... 90% of CA skills is shooting from 20ft
                                      - 15yds, at a specific person, while standing in/behind a line of fighters.

                                      The pavise end is not within 90%, the flight end/drop zone, is not within
                                      90%.

                                      Your local CA mileage may vary.

                                      Siegfried

                                      --
                                      _________________________________________________________________________
                                      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • jameswolfden
                                      Couldn t the pavise be represented with the two sticks and cloth (canvas or burlap or ...) between them. Easier to transport and handles the visibility
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Nov 16, 2005
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                                        Couldn't the pavise be represented with the two sticks and cloth (canvas or
                                        burlap or ...) between them. Easier to transport and handles the visibility
                                        issues.

                                        James
                                        (who has never actually shot an IKCAC)


                                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@g...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > As to the pavise. You do not need a regular pavise. The rules allow
                                        > > the use of two four foot tall sticks to represent it.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yup, understood. But just noting that's still something else that needs
                                        > setup. Also, I've never really liked that concept, 100%. Just because it
                                        > changes the shoot. You get an advantage by using the 2 sticks, as you can
                                        > focus on the target, aim, then just lean or stand enough to shoot around the
                                        > stick and release.
                                        >
                                        > If using a real pavise, you can't see well enough to specifically aim, until
                                        > you are already around the side.
                                        >
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