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RE: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?

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  • Rj Bachner
    Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That s a full 12 inches or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40 yards? Ragi From:
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
      Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full 12 inches
      or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40 yards?

      Ragi


      From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
      Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
      To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?

      I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
      difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at clout
      distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a bullseye
      and a non-scorer.

      Padraig



      Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
      From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@...>
      Subject: Can you shoot well enough?

      Heya

      I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a customer
      who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
      tapering and sanding to get them all just so.

      My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of sca
      shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the difference
      between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point to being
      this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot more
      expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.

      sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and sights,
      maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good enough but
      really....

      can you honestly see the difference? I cant.

      Ragi


      ragi@...

      www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca




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    • dauid_morgant_dinefwr
      Hello to the list, I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
        Hello to the list,

        I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in
        grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
        25 grain +/- I notice a 3-4" spread variance at 40 yards--none below
        30yds. In addition, past 65 yards I've notice a considerable impact
        created by fletching size and grain variation.

        Example, at 80 yards an arrow with +20 grains and 5.5" fletch will
        drop as much as 24 inches when compared to a 20 grain lighter arrow
        with 4" fletching.

        I wouldn't think a 2.5 grain +/- seems a bit unnecessary.

        Dauid



        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full
        12 inches
        > or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40
        yards?
        >
        > Ragi
        >
        >
        > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
        Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
        > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
        > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?
        >
        > I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
        > difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at
        clout
        > distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a
        bullseye
        > and a non-scorer.
        >
        > Padraig
        >
        >
        >
        > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
        > From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
        > Subject: Can you shoot well enough?
        >
        > Heya
        >
        > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
        customer
        > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost
        sof
        > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
        >
        > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of
        sca
        > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the
        difference
        > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point
        to being
        > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot
        more
        > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
        >
        > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and
        sights,
        > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good
        enough but
        > really....
        >
        > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
        >
        > Ragi
        >
        >
        > ragi@b...
        >
        > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Nest verch Tangwistel
        i don t see that much of a difference between shafts that close. Then again when I make a set of arrows I always shoot them all a couple times. there always
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
          i don't see that much of a difference between shafts that close. Then
          again when I make a set of arrows I always shoot them all a couple times.
          there always seems to be a couple in the set which don't want to group
          with the others anyway. Even when they match beautifully. I put that down
          to some sort of grain anamoly in the wood, or maybe an odd feather. So if
          there are unknowns involved that make those erratic arrows, the natural
          varients between shafts is going to swallow up a grain difference that
          little.

          Nest

          --- dauid_morgant_dinefwr <dunvegann@...> wrote:

          > Hello to the list,
          >
          > I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in
          > grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
          > 25 grain +/- I notice a 3-4" spread variance at 40 yards--none below
          > 30yds. In addition, past 65 yards I've notice a considerable impact
          > created by fletching size and grain variation.
          >
          > Example, at 80 yards an arrow with +20 grains and 5.5" fletch will
          > drop as much as 24 inches when compared to a 20 grain lighter arrow
          > with 4" fletching.
          >
          > I wouldn't think a 2.5 grain +/- seems a bit unnecessary.
          >
          > Dauid
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full
          > 12 inches
          > > or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40
          > yards?
          > >
          > > Ragi
          > >
          > >
          > > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
          > Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
          > > Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
          > > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
          > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?
          > >
          > > I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
          > > difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at
          > clout
          > > distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a
          > bullseye
          > > and a non-scorer.
          > >
          > > Padraig
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
          > > From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
          > > Subject: Can you shoot well enough?
          > >
          > > Heya
          > >
          > > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
          > customer
          > > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost
          > sof
          > > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
          > >
          > > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of
          > sca
          > > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the
          > difference
          > > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point
          > to being
          > > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot
          > more
          > > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
          > >
          > > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and
          > sights,
          > > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good
          > enough but
          > > really....
          > >
          > > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
          > >
          > > Ragi
          > >
          > >
          > > ragi@b...
          > >
          > > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > ______________________________________________________________________
          > __
          > >
          > ______________________________________________________________________
          > __
          > >
          > >
          > > ---8<---------------------------------------------
          > > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
          > > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
          > >
          > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this
          > list]
          > >
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          > ----
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          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          > ----
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Scott B. Jaqua
          There comes a point, however, even if you can t actually see the difference in performance, that it is still worth it to have the best possible equipment. This
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
            There comes a point, however, even if you can't actually see the
            difference in performance, that it is still worth it to have the best
            possible equipment. This game we play has a very important mental
            aspect. I helps to know that your equipment is performing if possible
            better then you possibly can. Confidence in your gear, will translate in
            more overall confidence. That will allow you to shoot the best you can
            on any given day. It will let you know that any variance in performance
            is in fact in you. And it will help you recover from problem shots
            better (no worry that you have to keep track and check that arrow later).

            There is also the aging athlete factor. A book I saw speaks of aging in
            sports. One of the things it suggests is that you have a deep wallet
            then your younger competition. So use that to partially offset their
            youth. Buy the best equipment you can, or buy the tools to make and
            maintain the best equipment you can. I won't say that works for
            everyone. But I have to believe on average it's true.

            Njall
          • James Koch
            Nest, ... I also wonder how much changes in humidity and temperature effect our shafts from day to day. My guess is they absorb and lose water at different
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
              Nest,
              >
              I also wonder how much changes in humidity and temperature effect our
              shafts from day to day. My guess is they absorb and lose water at
              different rates and may also warp a bit as a consequence. I agree with
              Siegfried regarding crossbow bolts. This year for the first time I weighed
              all of my bolts on a lab scale. I then divided them into four distinct
              groups depending on their weights. On the butt end of each shaft I placed
              no mark on the lightest, one mark on the next lightest, two on the heavier
              shafts and three on the heaviest. When I shoot I select one group or the
              other. Sometimes when necessary I'll include a shaft from a close weight
              bunch but I won't for example combine a no mark with a three mark or even a
              one and three. When shooting Royal Rounds I got no real point advantage at
              40 yards where I should have expected to see it. I did get my scores up a
              bit but that was by working on my speed.
              >
              Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
              >
              >
              >At 12:47 PM 11/4/2005, you wrote:
              >i don't see that much of a difference between shafts that close. Then
              >again when I make a set of arrows I always shoot them all a couple times.
              >there always seems to be a couple in the set which don't want to group
              >with the others anyway. Even when they match beautifully. I put that down
              >to some sort of grain anamoly in the wood, or maybe an odd feather. So if
              >there are unknowns involved that make those erratic arrows, the natural
              >varients between shafts is going to swallow up a grain difference that
              >little.
              >
              >Nest
              >
              >--- dauid_morgant_dinefwr <dunvegann@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Hello to the list,
              > >
              > > I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in
              > > grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
              > > 25 grain +/- I notice a 3-4" spread variance at 40 yards--none below
              > > 30yds. In addition, past 65 yards I've notice a considerable impact
              > > created by fletching size and grain variation.
              > >
              > > Example, at 80 yards an arrow with +20 grains and 5.5" fletch will
              > > drop as much as 24 inches when compared to a 20 grain lighter arrow
              > > with 4" fletching.
              > >
              > > I wouldn't think a 2.5 grain +/- seems a bit unnecessary.
              > >
              > > Dauid
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full
              > > 12 inches
              > > > or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40
              > > yards?
              > > >
              > > > Ragi
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
              > > Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
              > > > Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
              > > > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
              > > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?
              > > >
              > > > I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
              > > > difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at
              > > clout
              > > > distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a
              > > bullseye
              > > > and a non-scorer.
              > > >
              > > > Padraig
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
              > > > From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
              > > > Subject: Can you shoot well enough?
              > > >
              > > > Heya
              > > >
              > > > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
              > > customer
              > > > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost
              > > sof
              > > > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
              > > >
              > > > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of
              > > sca
              > > > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the
              > > difference
              > > > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point
              > > to being
              > > > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot
              > > more
              > > > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
              > > >
              > > > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and
              > > sights,
              > > > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good
              > > enough but
              > > > really....
              > > >
              > > > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
              > > >
              > > > Ragi
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ragi@b...
              > > >
              > > > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > ______________________________________________________________________
              > > __
              > > >
              > > ______________________________________________________________________
              > > __
              > > >
              > > >
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            • Robert Lauderdale
              Just saw this on Ebay--42 cedar arrows in various stages of completion from an estate sale. Current bid is $15.50. Might be woth a look to those who can
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
                Just saw this on Ebay--42 cedar arrows in various stages of
                completion from an estate sale. Current bid is $15.50. Might be woth a
                look to those who can finish them up. Ebay Item number: 7193062027

                Chidiock
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