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Re: [SCA-Archery] Can you shoot well enough?

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  • Nicholas S. Malone
    I think the more important issue is confidence and trust, Especially hunting with traditional equipment. If you know all your arrows are close to the same you
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
      I think the more important issue is confidence and trust, Especially
      hunting with traditional equipment. If you know all your arrows are
      close to the same you don't get caught up in looking for the good arrow
      or passing over the bad ones. Its a comfort thing that some people are
      willing to pay for or work extra for!

      AshaHito - just flinging stuff in the same general direction

      Siegfried wrote:

      >Between a 5 and 10 grain? No, I can't say I could tell.
      >
      >But between a 10 and a 20. With my crossbow. Yes. I can.
      >
      >However, it's a difference between getting a 4" group and a 3" group ...
      >which at that point, doesn't really matter all that much unless you are
      >really trying to break 120 on a RR or some other goal
      >
      >Siegfried - at 117
      >
      >On 11/3/05, Rj Bachner <ragiwarmbear@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >>Heya
      >>
      >>I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
      >>customer
      >>who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
      >>tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
      >>
      >>My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of sca
      >>shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the difference
      >>between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point to being
      >>this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot more
      >>expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
      >>
      >>sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and sights,
      >>maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good enough
      >>but
      >>really....
      >>
      >>can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
      >>
      >>Ragi
      >>
      >>
      >>ragi@...
      >>
      >>www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca <http://www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
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      >>
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    • Frederick Fenters
      I don t know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at clout distances. At
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
        I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
        difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at clout
        distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a bullseye
        and a non-scorer.

        Padraig



        Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
        From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@...>
        Subject: Can you shoot well enough?

        Heya

        I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a customer
        who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
        tapering and sanding to get them all just so.

        My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of sca
        shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the difference
        between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point to being
        this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot more
        expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.

        sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and sights,
        maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good enough but
        really....

        can you honestly see the difference? I cant.

        Ragi


        ragi@...

        www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • georgeledbury@aol.com
        It depends a lot on the bow, it will make a lot more difference with a light draw target recurve than it does on a high performance heavy draw bow. Gawin
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
          It depends a lot on the bow, it will make a lot more difference with a light
          draw target recurve than it does on a high performance heavy draw bow.
          Gawin


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Rj Bachner
          Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That s a full 12 inches or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40 yards? Ragi From:
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
            Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full 12 inches
            or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40 yards?

            Ragi


            From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
            Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?

            I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
            difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at clout
            distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a bullseye
            and a non-scorer.

            Padraig



            Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
            From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@...>
            Subject: Can you shoot well enough?

            Heya

            I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a customer
            who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
            tapering and sanding to get them all just so.

            My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of sca
            shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the difference
            between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point to being
            this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot more
            expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.

            sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and sights,
            maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good enough but
            really....

            can you honestly see the difference? I cant.

            Ragi


            ragi@...

            www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • dauid_morgant_dinefwr
            Hello to the list, I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
              Hello to the list,

              I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in
              grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
              25 grain +/- I notice a 3-4" spread variance at 40 yards--none below
              30yds. In addition, past 65 yards I've notice a considerable impact
              created by fletching size and grain variation.

              Example, at 80 yards an arrow with +20 grains and 5.5" fletch will
              drop as much as 24 inches when compared to a 20 grain lighter arrow
              with 4" fletching.

              I wouldn't think a 2.5 grain +/- seems a bit unnecessary.

              Dauid



              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full
              12 inches
              > or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40
              yards?
              >
              > Ragi
              >
              >
              > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
              Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
              > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
              > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?
              >
              > I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
              > difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at
              clout
              > distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a
              bullseye
              > and a non-scorer.
              >
              > Padraig
              >
              >
              >
              > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
              > From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
              > Subject: Can you shoot well enough?
              >
              > Heya
              >
              > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
              customer
              > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost
              sof
              > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
              >
              > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of
              sca
              > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the
              difference
              > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point
              to being
              > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot
              more
              > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
              >
              > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and
              sights,
              > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good
              enough but
              > really....
              >
              > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
              >
              > Ragi
              >
              >
              > ragi@b...
              >
              > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Nest verch Tangwistel
              i don t see that much of a difference between shafts that close. Then again when I make a set of arrows I always shoot them all a couple times. there always
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
                i don't see that much of a difference between shafts that close. Then
                again when I make a set of arrows I always shoot them all a couple times.
                there always seems to be a couple in the set which don't want to group
                with the others anyway. Even when they match beautifully. I put that down
                to some sort of grain anamoly in the wood, or maybe an odd feather. So if
                there are unknowns involved that make those erratic arrows, the natural
                varients between shafts is going to swallow up a grain difference that
                little.

                Nest

                --- dauid_morgant_dinefwr <dunvegann@...> wrote:

                > Hello to the list,
                >
                > I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in
                > grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
                > 25 grain +/- I notice a 3-4" spread variance at 40 yards--none below
                > 30yds. In addition, past 65 yards I've notice a considerable impact
                > created by fletching size and grain variation.
                >
                > Example, at 80 yards an arrow with +20 grains and 5.5" fletch will
                > drop as much as 24 inches when compared to a 20 grain lighter arrow
                > with 4" fletching.
                >
                > I wouldn't think a 2.5 grain +/- seems a bit unnecessary.
                >
                > Dauid
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full
                > 12 inches
                > > or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40
                > yards?
                > >
                > > Ragi
                > >
                > >
                > > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
                > Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                > > Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
                > > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
                > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?
                > >
                > > I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
                > > difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at
                > clout
                > > distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a
                > bullseye
                > > and a non-scorer.
                > >
                > > Padraig
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
                > > From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                > > Subject: Can you shoot well enough?
                > >
                > > Heya
                > >
                > > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
                > customer
                > > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost
                > sof
                > > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
                > >
                > > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of
                > sca
                > > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the
                > difference
                > > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point
                > to being
                > > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot
                > more
                > > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
                > >
                > > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and
                > sights,
                > > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good
                > enough but
                > > really....
                > >
                > > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
                > >
                > > Ragi
                > >
                > >
                > > ragi@b...
                > >
                > > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > ______________________________________________________________________
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              • Scott B. Jaqua
                There comes a point, however, even if you can t actually see the difference in performance, that it is still worth it to have the best possible equipment. This
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
                  There comes a point, however, even if you can't actually see the
                  difference in performance, that it is still worth it to have the best
                  possible equipment. This game we play has a very important mental
                  aspect. I helps to know that your equipment is performing if possible
                  better then you possibly can. Confidence in your gear, will translate in
                  more overall confidence. That will allow you to shoot the best you can
                  on any given day. It will let you know that any variance in performance
                  is in fact in you. And it will help you recover from problem shots
                  better (no worry that you have to keep track and check that arrow later).

                  There is also the aging athlete factor. A book I saw speaks of aging in
                  sports. One of the things it suggests is that you have a deep wallet
                  then your younger competition. So use that to partially offset their
                  youth. Buy the best equipment you can, or buy the tools to make and
                  maintain the best equipment you can. I won't say that works for
                  everyone. But I have to believe on average it's true.

                  Njall
                • James Koch
                  Nest, ... I also wonder how much changes in humidity and temperature effect our shafts from day to day. My guess is they absorb and lose water at different
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
                    Nest,
                    >
                    I also wonder how much changes in humidity and temperature effect our
                    shafts from day to day. My guess is they absorb and lose water at
                    different rates and may also warp a bit as a consequence. I agree with
                    Siegfried regarding crossbow bolts. This year for the first time I weighed
                    all of my bolts on a lab scale. I then divided them into four distinct
                    groups depending on their weights. On the butt end of each shaft I placed
                    no mark on the lightest, one mark on the next lightest, two on the heavier
                    shafts and three on the heaviest. When I shoot I select one group or the
                    other. Sometimes when necessary I'll include a shaft from a close weight
                    bunch but I won't for example combine a no mark with a three mark or even a
                    one and three. When shooting Royal Rounds I got no real point advantage at
                    40 yards where I should have expected to see it. I did get my scores up a
                    bit but that was by working on my speed.
                    >
                    Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                    >
                    >
                    >At 12:47 PM 11/4/2005, you wrote:
                    >i don't see that much of a difference between shafts that close. Then
                    >again when I make a set of arrows I always shoot them all a couple times.
                    >there always seems to be a couple in the set which don't want to group
                    >with the others anyway. Even when they match beautifully. I put that down
                    >to some sort of grain anamoly in the wood, or maybe an odd feather. So if
                    >there are unknowns involved that make those erratic arrows, the natural
                    >varients between shafts is going to swallow up a grain difference that
                    >little.
                    >
                    >Nest
                    >
                    >--- dauid_morgant_dinefwr <dunvegann@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hello to the list,
                    > >
                    > > I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in
                    > > grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
                    > > 25 grain +/- I notice a 3-4" spread variance at 40 yards--none below
                    > > 30yds. In addition, past 65 yards I've notice a considerable impact
                    > > created by fletching size and grain variation.
                    > >
                    > > Example, at 80 yards an arrow with +20 grains and 5.5" fletch will
                    > > drop as much as 24 inches when compared to a 20 grain lighter arrow
                    > > with 4" fletching.
                    > >
                    > > I wouldn't think a 2.5 grain +/- seems a bit unnecessary.
                    > >
                    > > Dauid
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full
                    > > 12 inches
                    > > > or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40
                    > > yards?
                    > > >
                    > > > Ragi
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
                    > > Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > > > Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
                    > > > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
                    > > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?
                    > > >
                    > > > I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
                    > > > difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at
                    > > clout
                    > > > distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a
                    > > bullseye
                    > > > and a non-scorer.
                    > > >
                    > > > Padraig
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
                    > > > From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                    > > > Subject: Can you shoot well enough?
                    > > >
                    > > > Heya
                    > > >
                    > > > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
                    > > customer
                    > > > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost
                    > > sof
                    > > > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
                    > > >
                    > > > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of
                    > > sca
                    > > > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the
                    > > difference
                    > > > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point
                    > > to being
                    > > > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot
                    > > more
                    > > > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
                    > > >
                    > > > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and
                    > > sights,
                    > > > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good
                    > > enough but
                    > > > really....
                    > > >
                    > > > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
                    > > >
                    > > > Ragi
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ragi@b...
                    > > >
                    > > > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > ______________________________________________________________________
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                  • Robert Lauderdale
                    Just saw this on Ebay--42 cedar arrows in various stages of completion from an estate sale. Current bid is $15.50. Might be woth a look to those who can
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
                      Just saw this on Ebay--42 cedar arrows in various stages of
                      completion from an estate sale. Current bid is $15.50. Might be woth a
                      look to those who can finish them up. Ebay Item number: 7193062027

                      Chidiock
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