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Can you shoot well enough?

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  • Rj Bachner
    Heya I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a customer who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 3 7:13 AM
      Heya

      I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a customer
      who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
      tapering and sanding to get them all just so.

      My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of sca
      shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the difference
      between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point to being
      this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot more
      expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.

      sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and sights,
      maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good enough but
      really....

      can you honestly see the difference? I cant.

      Ragi


      ragi@...

      www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Siegfried
      Between a 5 and 10 grain? No, I can t say I could tell. But between a 10 and a 20. With my crossbow. Yes. I can. However, it s a difference between getting a
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 3 8:03 AM
        Between a 5 and 10 grain? No, I can't say I could tell.

        But between a 10 and a 20. With my crossbow. Yes. I can.

        However, it's a difference between getting a 4" group and a 3" group ...
        which at that point, doesn't really matter all that much unless you are
        really trying to break 120 on a RR or some other goal

        Siegfried - at 117

        On 11/3/05, Rj Bachner <ragiwarmbear@...> wrote:
        >
        > Heya
        >
        > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
        > customer
        > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
        > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
        >
        > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of sca
        > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the difference
        > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point to being
        > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot more
        > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
        >
        > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and sights,
        > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good enough
        > but
        > really....
        >
        > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
        >
        > Ragi
        >
        >
        > ragi@...
        >
        > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca <http://www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
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        --
        _________________________________________________________________________
        THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
        Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
        Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
        http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nicholas S. Malone
        I think the more important issue is confidence and trust, Especially hunting with traditional equipment. If you know all your arrows are close to the same you
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 3 8:37 AM
          I think the more important issue is confidence and trust, Especially
          hunting with traditional equipment. If you know all your arrows are
          close to the same you don't get caught up in looking for the good arrow
          or passing over the bad ones. Its a comfort thing that some people are
          willing to pay for or work extra for!

          AshaHito - just flinging stuff in the same general direction

          Siegfried wrote:

          >Between a 5 and 10 grain? No, I can't say I could tell.
          >
          >But between a 10 and a 20. With my crossbow. Yes. I can.
          >
          >However, it's a difference between getting a 4" group and a 3" group ...
          >which at that point, doesn't really matter all that much unless you are
          >really trying to break 120 on a RR or some other goal
          >
          >Siegfried - at 117
          >
          >On 11/3/05, Rj Bachner <ragiwarmbear@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >>Heya
          >>
          >>I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
          >>customer
          >>who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
          >>tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
          >>
          >>My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of sca
          >>shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the difference
          >>between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point to being
          >>this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot more
          >>expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
          >>
          >>sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and sights,
          >>maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good enough
          >>but
          >>really....
          >>
          >>can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
          >>
          >>Ragi
          >>
          >>
          >>ragi@...
          >>
          >>www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca <http://www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>---8<---------------------------------------------
          >>Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
          >>Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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          >>
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          >
          >
          >--
          >_________________________________________________________________________
          >THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
          >Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
          >Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
          >http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Frederick Fenters
          I don t know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at clout distances. At
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 3 6:53 PM
            I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
            difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at clout
            distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a bullseye
            and a non-scorer.

            Padraig



            Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
            From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@...>
            Subject: Can you shoot well enough?

            Heya

            I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a customer
            who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
            tapering and sanding to get them all just so.

            My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of sca
            shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the difference
            between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point to being
            this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot more
            expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.

            sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and sights,
            maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good enough but
            really....

            can you honestly see the difference? I cant.

            Ragi


            ragi@...

            www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • georgeledbury@aol.com
            It depends a lot on the bow, it will make a lot more difference with a light draw target recurve than it does on a high performance heavy draw bow. Gawin
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 3 6:59 PM
              It depends a lot on the bow, it will make a lot more difference with a light
              draw target recurve than it does on a high performance heavy draw bow.
              Gawin


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Rj Bachner
              Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That s a full 12 inches or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40 yards? Ragi From:
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 3 7:02 PM
                Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full 12 inches
                or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40 yards?

                Ragi


                From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
                Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
                To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?

                I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
                difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at clout
                distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a bullseye
                and a non-scorer.

                Padraig



                Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
                From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@...>
                Subject: Can you shoot well enough?

                Heya

                I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a customer
                who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost sof
                tapering and sanding to get them all just so.

                My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of sca
                shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the difference
                between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point to being
                this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot more
                expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.

                sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and sights,
                maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good enough but
                really....

                can you honestly see the difference? I cant.

                Ragi


                ragi@...

                www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ________________________________________________________________________
                ________________________________________________________________________


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                Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/

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              • dauid_morgant_dinefwr
                Hello to the list, I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 4 9:01 AM
                  Hello to the list,

                  I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in
                  grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
                  25 grain +/- I notice a 3-4" spread variance at 40 yards--none below
                  30yds. In addition, past 65 yards I've notice a considerable impact
                  created by fletching size and grain variation.

                  Example, at 80 yards an arrow with +20 grains and 5.5" fletch will
                  drop as much as 24 inches when compared to a 20 grain lighter arrow
                  with 4" fletching.

                  I wouldn't think a 2.5 grain +/- seems a bit unnecessary.

                  Dauid



                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full
                  12 inches
                  > or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40
                  yards?
                  >
                  > Ragi
                  >
                  >
                  > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
                  Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
                  > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
                  > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?
                  >
                  > I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
                  > difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at
                  clout
                  > distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a
                  bullseye
                  > and a non-scorer.
                  >
                  > Padraig
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
                  > From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                  > Subject: Can you shoot well enough?
                  >
                  > Heya
                  >
                  > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
                  customer
                  > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost
                  sof
                  > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
                  >
                  > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of
                  sca
                  > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the
                  difference
                  > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point
                  to being
                  > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot
                  more
                  > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
                  >
                  > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and
                  sights,
                  > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good
                  enough but
                  > really....
                  >
                  > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
                  >
                  > Ragi
                  >
                  >
                  > ragi@b...
                  >
                  > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  __
                  >
                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  __
                  >
                  >
                  > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                  > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                  > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                  list]
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                • Nest verch Tangwistel
                  i don t see that much of a difference between shafts that close. Then again when I make a set of arrows I always shoot them all a couple times. there always
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 4 9:47 AM
                    i don't see that much of a difference between shafts that close. Then
                    again when I make a set of arrows I always shoot them all a couple times.
                    there always seems to be a couple in the set which don't want to group
                    with the others anyway. Even when they match beautifully. I put that down
                    to some sort of grain anamoly in the wood, or maybe an odd feather. So if
                    there are unknowns involved that make those erratic arrows, the natural
                    varients between shafts is going to swallow up a grain difference that
                    little.

                    Nest

                    --- dauid_morgant_dinefwr <dunvegann@...> wrote:

                    > Hello to the list,
                    >
                    > I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in
                    > grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
                    > 25 grain +/- I notice a 3-4" spread variance at 40 yards--none below
                    > 30yds. In addition, past 65 yards I've notice a considerable impact
                    > created by fletching size and grain variation.
                    >
                    > Example, at 80 yards an arrow with +20 grains and 5.5" fletch will
                    > drop as much as 24 inches when compared to a 20 grain lighter arrow
                    > with 4" fletching.
                    >
                    > I wouldn't think a 2.5 grain +/- seems a bit unnecessary.
                    >
                    > Dauid
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full
                    > 12 inches
                    > > or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40
                    > yards?
                    > >
                    > > Ragi
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
                    > Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > > Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
                    > > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
                    > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?
                    > >
                    > > I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
                    > > difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at
                    > clout
                    > > distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a
                    > bullseye
                    > > and a non-scorer.
                    > >
                    > > Padraig
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
                    > > From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                    > > Subject: Can you shoot well enough?
                    > >
                    > > Heya
                    > >
                    > > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
                    > customer
                    > > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost
                    > sof
                    > > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
                    > >
                    > > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of
                    > sca
                    > > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the
                    > difference
                    > > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point
                    > to being
                    > > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot
                    > more
                    > > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
                    > >
                    > > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and
                    > sights,
                    > > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good
                    > enough but
                    > > really....
                    > >
                    > > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
                    > >
                    > > Ragi
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ragi@b...
                    > >
                    > > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > ______________________________________________________________________
                    > __
                    > >
                    > ______________________________________________________________________
                    > __
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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                    > > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                  • Scott B. Jaqua
                    There comes a point, however, even if you can t actually see the difference in performance, that it is still worth it to have the best possible equipment. This
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 4 9:52 AM
                      There comes a point, however, even if you can't actually see the
                      difference in performance, that it is still worth it to have the best
                      possible equipment. This game we play has a very important mental
                      aspect. I helps to know that your equipment is performing if possible
                      better then you possibly can. Confidence in your gear, will translate in
                      more overall confidence. That will allow you to shoot the best you can
                      on any given day. It will let you know that any variance in performance
                      is in fact in you. And it will help you recover from problem shots
                      better (no worry that you have to keep track and check that arrow later).

                      There is also the aging athlete factor. A book I saw speaks of aging in
                      sports. One of the things it suggests is that you have a deep wallet
                      then your younger competition. So use that to partially offset their
                      youth. Buy the best equipment you can, or buy the tools to make and
                      maintain the best equipment you can. I won't say that works for
                      everyone. But I have to believe on average it's true.

                      Njall
                    • James Koch
                      Nest, ... I also wonder how much changes in humidity and temperature effect our shafts from day to day. My guess is they absorb and lose water at different
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 4 12:46 PM
                        Nest,
                        >
                        I also wonder how much changes in humidity and temperature effect our
                        shafts from day to day. My guess is they absorb and lose water at
                        different rates and may also warp a bit as a consequence. I agree with
                        Siegfried regarding crossbow bolts. This year for the first time I weighed
                        all of my bolts on a lab scale. I then divided them into four distinct
                        groups depending on their weights. On the butt end of each shaft I placed
                        no mark on the lightest, one mark on the next lightest, two on the heavier
                        shafts and three on the heaviest. When I shoot I select one group or the
                        other. Sometimes when necessary I'll include a shaft from a close weight
                        bunch but I won't for example combine a no mark with a three mark or even a
                        one and three. When shooting Royal Rounds I got no real point advantage at
                        40 yards where I should have expected to see it. I did get my scores up a
                        bit but that was by working on my speed.
                        >
                        Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                        >
                        >
                        >At 12:47 PM 11/4/2005, you wrote:
                        >i don't see that much of a difference between shafts that close. Then
                        >again when I make a set of arrows I always shoot them all a couple times.
                        >there always seems to be a couple in the set which don't want to group
                        >with the others anyway. Even when they match beautifully. I put that down
                        >to some sort of grain anamoly in the wood, or maybe an odd feather. So if
                        >there are unknowns involved that make those erratic arrows, the natural
                        >varients between shafts is going to swallow up a grain difference that
                        >little.
                        >
                        >Nest
                        >
                        >--- dauid_morgant_dinefwr <dunvegann@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Hello to the list,
                        > >
                        > > I shoot a 45# recurve---up to 65 yards I have found no difference in
                        > > grouping with a 10 grain variance. As mentioned in other posts, at 20-
                        > > 25 grain +/- I notice a 3-4" spread variance at 40 yards--none below
                        > > 30yds. In addition, past 65 yards I've notice a considerable impact
                        > > created by fletching size and grain variation.
                        > >
                        > > Example, at 80 yards an arrow with +20 grains and 5.5" fletch will
                        > > drop as much as 24 inches when compared to a 20 grain lighter arrow
                        > > with 4" fletching.
                        > >
                        > > I wouldn't think a 2.5 grain +/- seems a bit unnecessary.
                        > >
                        > > Dauid
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Now how can a 10 grain diff make such a difference? That's a full
                        > > 12 inches
                        > > > or more between gold and outside. Maybe a longer ranges but at 40
                        > > yards?
                        > > >
                        > > > Ragi
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
                        > > Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > > > Behalf Of Frederick Fenters
                        > > > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:53 PM
                        > > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] RE: Can you shoot well enough?
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't know about the hand bow people, but it can make considerable
                        > > > difference with a crossbow. 10 grains makes a huge difference at
                        > > clout
                        > > > distances. At shorter ranges, it can be the difference between a
                        > > bullseye
                        > > > and a non-scorer.
                        > > >
                        > > > Padraig
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:13:26 -0500
                        > > > From: "Rj Bachner" <ragiwarmbear@s...>
                        > > > Subject: Can you shoot well enough?
                        > > >
                        > > > Heya
                        > > >
                        > > > I am presently working on a set of my best match grade arrows for a
                        > > customer
                        > > > who insists on a +/- 2.5 grain spread in weight. fun really, lost
                        > > sof
                        > > > tapering and sanding to get them all just so.
                        > > >
                        > > > My question has always been can a traditional shooter, in or out of
                        > > sca
                        > > > shoots, shoot well enough and consistently enough to see the
                        > > difference
                        > > > between a 5 grain spread or a ten grain spread? What is the point
                        > > to being
                        > > > this exacting if you cant see the diff? It makes the arrows a lot
                        > > more
                        > > > expensive to be sure and seems a waste of effort.
                        > > >
                        > > > sure if you are shooting with a modern setup, balance beams and
                        > > sights,
                        > > > maybe on a 90 m target you will see a difference if you are good
                        > > enough but
                        > > > really....
                        > > >
                        > > > can you honestly see the difference? I cant.
                        > > >
                        > > > Ragi
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ragi@b...
                        > > >
                        > > > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
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                      • Robert Lauderdale
                        Just saw this on Ebay--42 cedar arrows in various stages of completion from an estate sale. Current bid is $15.50. Might be woth a look to those who can
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 4 2:17 PM
                          Just saw this on Ebay--42 cedar arrows in various stages of
                          completion from an estate sale. Current bid is $15.50. Might be woth a
                          look to those who can finish them up. Ebay Item number: 7193062027

                          Chidiock
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