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Crossbow vs. Recurve/Longbow

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  • Frederick Fenters
    Okay, it s time for me to add my two pence worth. I have maintained for over 15 years that the difference between shooting a handbow (i.e. recurve or longbow)
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 18, 2005
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      Okay, it's time for me to add my two pence worth.



      I have maintained for over 15 years that the difference between shooting a
      handbow (i.e. recurve or longbow) and a crossbow is directly analogous to
      the difference between shooting a rifle and a pistol. The two CANNOT be
      directly compared, just as shooting a rifle and pistol at the same targets
      cannot be directly compared.



      Is it quicker to shoot better scores with a crossbow than a handbow? Yes!
      Is it really easier to "master" a crossbow than a handbow? Not really. The
      scores on the same targets do not reflect the learning curve using the
      disparate weapons. It is still just as much an accomplishment to shoot a
      high score (say 95 or higher) with a crossbow as it is with a handbow. It
      takes dedication and practice to do it in either case.



      The use of speed rounds to "equalize" the shoots is one approach. Not
      necessarily a great one, as I have seen Robert Thorne shoot 6 shafts off a
      period style crossbow in 30 seconds with time to spare. We won't even
      discuss what Caedmon Wilson has reported. He needs to cut down on his
      caffeine. :-) Even old slow Padraig can get off 5 accurate (red or better)
      shots in 30 seconds when practiced up.



      Education is the key. Show people how one weapon does things differently
      than the other. Explain why some people are better able to use one than
      another. Directly compare what the individual does. Then explain that the
      idea here is to have fun and include everyone, not bitch about someone
      having "an unfair advantage". (Sorry, no other word really fits.)



      Daffyd pointed out that he shot well with a crossbow the first time he
      really tried it. I can state from personal experience that the years he
      shot his recurve and longbow directly helped him there. The knowledge of
      how to adjust an aim point, where to point a weapon in general, how arrows
      work, and the trained instinct that he has fostered all work to help him
      with a different weapon.



      I switched to "the Dark Side" because an old shoulder injury was causing me
      greater and greater difficulty in drawing my recurve. I still shoot recurve
      occasionally, for a few shots, mostly to keep enough skill to show a
      potential student that I know what I am talking about. I shoot my crossbow
      in competitions and for joy. I seldom accept prizes, only if there is
      someone of equal skill shooting with me.



      Generally, the only people who give me any grief quiet down when they see me
      having to adjust a screw on my weapon, blow the nock off a quarrel, or
      struggle to change a string on the field because the serving has worn out in
      the course of the shoot.



      I think I have yelled enough here. If anyone wants to discuss further off
      list, please feel free. I respect the opinions and comments of most
      everyone I have met through this list.



      Shoot well, everyone. The Ealdomerians, Northshielders and those of us in
      Pentamere (Midrealm) will be envious of your warmer climes in the next few
      months.



      Forester Padraig MacRaighne

      Padraig@...









      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dan Scheid
      Ok the resentment between the hand bow and the crossbow has nothing to do with ether bows. It has to do with human nature and our culture.While we live is a
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 18, 2005
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        Ok the resentment between the hand bow and the crossbow has nothing to do
        with ether bows. It has to do with human nature and our culture.While we
        live is a society that dreams of getting ahead or getting rich. The reality
        is when someone does there are those that resent it. Buy a BMW and watch it
        start. We have got to tax the rich because they have it. ECT. On the field
        you get beat my George then it not that George is better. It is because
        George has better stuff. The real test is how are we as the SCA going to
        deal with it? Are we going stand up for what's right or are we going to
        start to adjusting things for the whiners?
        You make this choice every time you're hear the Fred is better because he
        uses Y.
        The ball is in your court
        Damales
      • silvara21@thesilverdragonscavern.com
        I can see the point in saying it is human nature - but part of it is educating new archers as they arrive so they realize that different bows and what not
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 18, 2005
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          I can see the point in saying it is human nature - but part of it is
          educating new archers as they arrive so they realize that different bows
          and what not require different skills.

          Education on the field is not limited to safety but how humans interact
          with their equipment and how that interaction affects shooting.

          I am a new archer - I just started in June, and I did get upset and
          concerned the first few times I tried to compare myself to a crossbowman.
          It was pointed out to me that they skills used are different, and you
          can't compare the end results. Humans can be taught to look at things in
          the right light. You will not beable to show a different way of looking
          at the two different weapons to everyone, there will always be resentment
          in some people.

          This may be an uneducated view of archery at this time. But I do believe
          that part of resolving this ongoing conflict is to educate people as they
          enter into archery.

          YIS
          Elzebeth "Muleheaded" Bluscichof - A Novice Open Handbow archer
          MKA Becca

          > Ok the resentment between the hand bow and the crossbow has nothing to do
          > with ether bows. It has to do with human nature and our culture.While we
          > live is a society that dreams of getting ahead or getting rich. The
          > reality
          > is when someone does there are those that resent it. Buy a BMW and watch
          > it
          > start. We have got to tax the rich because they have it. ECT. On the field
          > you get beat my George then it not that George is better. It is because
          > George has better stuff. The real test is how are we as the SCA going to
          > deal with it? Are we going stand up for what's right or are we going to
          > start to adjusting things for the whiners?
          > You make this choice every time you're hear the Fred is better because he
          > uses Y.
          > The ball is in your court
          > Damales
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Scott B. Jaqua
          I ve been shooting crossbow and hand bow both a number of years. I can see arguments to separate them and arguments to have them compete together. I really
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 18, 2005
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            I've been shooting crossbow and hand bow both a number of years. I can
            see arguments to separate them and arguments to have them compete together.

            I really depends on the round being shot. A royal round is a pretty go
            compromise. The speed round is the equalizer. If you have a light enough
            crossbow to shoot lots of bolts during the speed round, then you score
            is going to suffer at 40 yards in the least bit of wind.

            If you have enough power for a stable flat flight at forty yards, then
            you are going to have a crossbow that can only be hip cocked by some guy
            named Mongo! And thus you will shoot fewer bolts during a speed round.

            I am ranked a bow master with both a crossbow and a hand bow. If I am
            shooting my crossbow against a fellow bow master using a hand bow, and
            we are shooting a royal round, and we are both up to form that day, then
            it is actually a pretty fair match.

            I flat out tell folks, that if I'm to win the royal round I have to not
            only beat their 40 yard score. But I have to build a significant margin,
            right at the start. I then have to build a little on that lead at the 30
            yard distance. Because against a bow master that is shooting well that
            day, the twenty yard scores are going to be pretty even. And during the
            speed round, a good hand bow archer is going to beat the pants off me.
            Because with my period style crossbow, while standing, I can only get
            off 5 aimed bolts. And that is on a good day. On a bad day they are
            either poorly aimed, or I only get 4 off.

            Now as far as advancement goes. Yes a crossbow is going to fly thru the
            lower ranks. You can post a forester score your second or third time
            out. But then the real work begins. A crossbow shooter must be as much a
            mechanic as shooter to get the most out of their equipment. All the top
            crossbow shooters I know, make their own bolts and tune their own
            crossbow. They need to to that as well as spend the time on the range
            practicing to raise their score one point at a time.

            Njall
          • John edgerton
            ... misc deleted Now that I too have joined the Dark Side (trademark registered) and have been shooting a period style crossbow for about a year, I realize
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 18, 2005
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              On Tuesday, October 18, 2005, at 11:46 AM, Scott B. Jaqua wrote:

              > I've been shooting crossbow and hand bow both a number of years. I can
              > see arguments to separate them and arguments to have them compete
              > together.
              >
              > I really depends on the round being shot. A royal round is a pretty go
              > compromise. The speed round is the equalizer. If you have a light
              > enough
              > crossbow to shoot lots of bolts during the speed round, then you score
              > is going to suffer at 40 yards in the least bit of wind.

              misc deleted

              Now that I too have joined the "Dark Side" (trademark registered) and
              have been shooting a period style crossbow for about a year, I realize
              that there is a problem in the timed ends between light draw and the
              more period heavier draw crossbows. If I knew what I know now when I
              was making the rules for the IKAC period crossbow division I would have
              tried to offset the advantage that the light draw crossbows have over
              the heavier crossbows. You can not always count on the wind lowering
              the light crossbows score at forty yards. The ability to hip or
              stomach cock a light crossbow greatly increases the number of bolts
              that be shot in 30 seconds. It seems that this would fall under the
              area of using modern techniques or materials to gain a advantage over
              those using more period styles and equipment. What I would like to see
              done to help even things out would be to require that in the Period
              division, at least, that hip or stomach cocking not be allowed. This
              could also be done in other competitions to reduce the advantage of the
              light crossbows in rate of shooting. A foot stirrup, belt hook, lever,
              crancquin , goats foot, etc be used for cocking. I would not want to
              see a minimum weight or maximum number of bolts.

              Jon
            • Scott B. Jaqua
              ... I don t know Sir Jon. I can hip cock a pretty powerful bow these days. After five years of blacksmithing, I m starting to resemble that guy named Mongo (at
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 18, 2005
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                John edgerton wrote:

                > (Snip)
                >
                >If I knew what I know now when I
                >was making the rules for the IKAC period crossbow division I would have
                >tried to offset the advantage that the light draw crossbows have over
                >the heavier crossbows. You can not always count on the wind lowering
                >the light crossbows score at forty yards. The ability to hip or
                >stomach cock a light crossbow greatly increases the number of bolts
                >that be shot in 30 seconds. It seems that this would fall under the
                >area of using modern techniques or materials to gain a advantage over
                >those using more period styles and equipment. What I would like to see
                >done to help even things out would be to require that in the Period
                >division, at least, that hip or stomach cocking not be allowed. (snip)
                >
                I don't know Sir Jon. I can hip cock a pretty powerful bow these days.
                After five years of blacksmithing, I'm starting to resemble that guy
                named Mongo (at least around the shoulders) :)

                And while I can see the technique change as an equalizer, there are
                still problems. One of the fastest crossbow shooters I know does stirrup
                cock the bow. But he does it while seated with his foot sticking out to
                catch the stirrup very quickly. And seated competition shooting in the
                SCA period is documentable.

                Now I choose to stand, as it is more stable for me. So not hip cocking
                would slow me down a great deal. But for others it might not get the
                result that you would like to see.

                And last there is a safety problem. Most period style crossbows are like
                those Master Iolo makes. Which means a long trigger/sear. When stirrup
                cocking one of these bows, it is very easy to brush the trigger with
                your knee. In a speed round this could be a problem.

                (thinking out loud......hmmmmm plant a row of bolts in the ground just
                in front of where the stirrup lands.... bend over and cock the bow with
                one motion and then its just a short reach to grab a bolt and slide it
                into the groove/shelf.....come back up with a cocked and loaded
                bow.....hmmmmmmmm...... it has to be better then the whirling dervish I
                look like now while I cock and load..........hmmmmmmmm.)

                Njall
              • Lord Caedmon Wilson
                One could get rid of speed rounds altogether, I totally avoid the argument of speed betwixt the bows. -- Lord Caedmon Wilson Oaken Regional Youth Combat
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 18, 2005
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                  One could get rid of speed rounds altogether, I totally avoid the
                  argument of speed betwixt the bows.

                  --
                  Lord Caedmon Wilson

                  Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                • Carl West
                  ... Long ago I made myself a very ugly, very weak xbow out of a 2x4 with a piece of road sign for the prod... It was cold out, the shearling hat I was wearing
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 18, 2005
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                    Scott B. Jaqua wrote:

                    >...
                    > (thinking out loud......hmmmmm plant a row of bolts in the ground just
                    > in front of where the stirrup lands.... bend over and cock the bow with
                    > one motion and then its just a short reach to grab a bolt and slide it
                    > into the groove/shelf.....come back up with a cocked and loaded
                    > bow.....hmmmmmmmm...... it has to be better then the whirling dervish I
                    > look like now while I cock and load..........hmmmmmmmm.)
                    >
                    > Njall

                    Long ago I made myself a very ugly, very weak xbow out of a 2x4 with a
                    piece of road sign for the prod...

                    It was cold out, the shearling hat I was wearing at the time had a deep
                    'cuff' and I found I could put my bolts in it heads down and the butts
                    leaning forward and they'd stay organized and readily available. I was
                    sitting and stirrup cocking.
                    Cock... reach up, grab the next bolt just ahead of the fletches with the
                    thumb toward the head... slip it under the clip... aim... loose... repeat.

                    Worked fairly well.

                    Then I managed to dry-fire the bow, it was never the same afterward.

                    It was interesting but I prefer the handbow so far. Quieter next to the
                    ear for one thing.

                    -- Fritz
                  • Scott B. Jaqua
                    For those of you not in Caid, you missed our very own Minister of Archery, THL Carolus von Eulenhorst on TV. KCAL channel 9 s magazine show, 9 On The Town
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 19, 2005
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                      For those of you not in Caid, you missed our very own Minister of
                      Archery, THL Carolus von Eulenhorst on TV. KCAL channel 9's magazine
                      show, "9 On The Town" did a segment on the Great Western War. Carolus
                      was feature prominently as he explained SCA archery and The GWW
                      championship shoot. Archery was just one aspect of the segment that ran
                      several minutes. But it and Carolus came off very well. I especially
                      like how they finished the archery portion of the segment. They show two
                      arrows hitting a target and then sped up the video to show a veritable
                      forest of arrows striking the target.

                      The segment was perhaps the best treatment of the SCA by the local media
                      that I have ever seen. It showed Heavy Fghting, Rapier Fighting, Archery
                      and Arts. The crew shot an enormous amount of video. So a great deal
                      more didn't get shown. But they did a very good job of editing it to
                      make what they did show and us all look very good.

                      Njall
                    • Eadric Anstapa
                      Anybody got a digital recording of this? -EA ... that ran ... show two ... veritable ... media ... Archery
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 19, 2005
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                        Anybody got a digital recording of this?

                        -EA

                        "Scott B. Jaqua" <hagerson@...> said:

                        > For those of you not in Caid, you missed our very own Minister of
                        > Archery, THL Carolus von Eulenhorst on TV. KCAL channel 9's magazine
                        > show, "9 On The Town" did a segment on the Great Western War. Carolus
                        > was feature prominently as he explained SCA archery and The GWW
                        > championship shoot. Archery was just one aspect of the segment
                        that ran
                        > several minutes. But it and Carolus came off very well. I especially
                        > like how they finished the archery portion of the segment. They
                        show two
                        > arrows hitting a target and then sped up the video to show a
                        veritable
                        > forest of arrows striking the target.
                        >
                        > The segment was perhaps the best treatment of the SCA by the local
                        media
                        > that I have ever seen. It showed Heavy Fghting, Rapier Fighting,
                        Archery
                        > and Arts. The crew shot an enormous amount of video. So a great deal
                        > more didn't get shown. But they did a very good job of editing it to
                        > make what they did show and us all look very good.
                        >
                        > Njall
                        >
                      • Carolus von Eulenhorst
                        And THL Njall fails to mention he was also prominent in demonstrating his artistry at the forge. Thanks Njall. Carolus ... -- No virus found in this outgoing
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 19, 2005
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                          And THL Njall fails to mention he was also prominent in demonstrating
                          his artistry at the forge. Thanks Njall.
                          Carolus

                          At 10:19 AM 10/19/2005, you wrote:

                          >For those of you not in Caid, you missed our very own Minister of
                          >Archery, THL Carolus von Eulenhorst on TV. KCAL channel 9's magazine
                          >show, "9 On The Town" did a segment on the Great Western War. Carolus
                          >was feature prominently as he explained SCA archery and The GWW
                          >championship shoot. Archery was just one aspect of the segment that ran
                          >several minutes. But it and Carolus came off very well. I especially
                          >like how they finished the archery portion of the segment. They show two
                          >arrows hitting a target and then sped up the video to show a veritable
                          >forest of arrows striking the target.
                          >
                          >The segment was perhaps the best treatment of the SCA by the local media
                          >that I have ever seen. It showed Heavy Fghting, Rapier Fighting, Archery
                          >and Arts. The crew shot an enormous amount of video. So a great deal
                          >more didn't get shown. But they did a very good job of editing it to
                          >make what they did show and us all look very good.
                          >
                          >Njall
                          >
                          >
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                        • John edgerton
                          ... Yes, once upon a time I could hip cock my old 150 pound Barnett with no problem. But, that was before 38 years in the Society aged me beyond my years. ;-)
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 20, 2005
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                            On Tuesday, October 18, 2005, at 02:59 PM, Scott B. Jaqua wrote:

                            > John edgerton wrote:
                            >
                            >> (Snip)
                            >>
                            >> If I knew what I know now when I
                            >> was making the rules for the IKAC period crossbow division I would
                            >> have
                            >> tried to offset the advantage that the light draw crossbows have over
                            >> the heavier crossbows. You can not always count on the wind lowering
                            >> the light crossbows score at forty yards. The ability to hip or
                            >> stomach cock a light crossbow greatly increases the number of bolts
                            >> that be shot in 30 seconds. It seems that this would fall under the
                            >> area of using modern techniques or materials to gain a advantage over
                            >> those using more period styles and equipment. What I would like to see
                            >> done to help even things out would be to require that in the Period
                            >> division, at least, that hip or stomach cocking not be allowed.
                            >> (snip)
                            >>
                            > I don't know Sir Jon. I can hip cock a pretty powerful bow these days.
                            > After five years of blacksmithing, I'm starting to resemble that guy
                            > named Mongo (at least around the shoulders) :)

                            Yes, once upon a time I could hip cock my old 150 pound Barnett with no
                            problem. But, that was before 38 years in the Society aged me beyond
                            my years. ;-) I now have to use a cocking level on my 150 pound period
                            style crossbow.

                            >
                            > And while I can see the technique change as an equalizer, there are
                            > still problems. One of the fastest crossbow shooters I know does
                            > stirrup
                            > cock the bow. But he does it while seated with his foot sticking out to
                            > catch the stirrup very quickly. And seated competition shooting in the
                            > SCA period is documentable.

                            That is a clever way to do it. I shoot seated on my bolt chest . And
                            also made sure when I wrote the IKAC that crossbows were allowed to
                            shoot from any position.

                            >
                            > Now I choose to stand, as it is more stable for me. So not hip cocking
                            > would slow me down a great deal. But for others it might not get the
                            > result that you would like to see.
                            >
                            > And last there is a safety problem. Most period style crossbows are
                            > like
                            > those Master Iolo makes. Which means a long trigger/sear. When stirrup
                            > cocking one of these bows, it is very easy to brush the trigger with
                            > your knee. In a speed round this could be a problem.

                            Not a major problem for those around the archer, since at that point
                            there is no bolt to be discharged. Now it might not do nice things to
                            the archers hand if it gets hit. But, an archer should not be using a
                            technique that they can not use safely.

                            >
                            > (thinking out loud......hmmmmm plant a row of bolts in the ground just
                            > in front of where the stirrup lands.... bend over and cock the bow with
                            > one motion and then its just a short reach to grab a bolt and slide it
                            > into the groove/shelf.....come back up with a cocked and loaded
                            > bow.....hmmmmmmmm...... it has to be better then the whirling dervish I
                            > look like now while I cock and load..........hmmmmmmmm.)

                            I have seen crossbow shooters with their bolts stuck in their boot.
                            Also worked well.

                            Jon
                            >
                            > Njall
                          • Siegfried
                            ... I would like to also point out the other side of that. As people know of me, I m a crossbowman at heart. I drooled for a crossbow, finally got one, then go
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 21, 2005
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                              >
                              > Daffyd pointed out that he shot well with a crossbow the first time he
                              > really tried it. I can state from personal experience that the years he
                              > shot his recurve and longbow directly helped him there. The knowledge of
                              > how to adjust an aim point, where to point a weapon in general, how arrows
                              > work, and the trained instinct that he has fostered all work to help him
                              > with a different weapon.


                              I would like to also point out the other side of that.

                              As people know of me, I'm a crossbowman at heart. I drooled for a crossbow,
                              finally got one, then go so hooked that I went overboard and started
                              producing them commercially :)

                              However, a story of how many things do translate.

                              Before I ever owned a crossbow, my lady owned a Recurve. I shot it a few
                              times, and never did all that good. Probably, had I scored a RR, it would
                              have been in the 20's ...

                              I then got a crossbow, and embarked over the next (umm, 6 years or so?) to
                              shoot to my hearts content, and manage to upgrade through 4 or 5 crossbows.
                              I went from starting in the 30's with the Crossbow, to most recently a 118.

                              I then, after all that time, picked up the recurve again (because for a few
                              practices I was out of crossbow ammo)
                              I that day shot a 55. After a few practices, I got a 76.

                              I'm currently practicing and shooting with a Longbow I picked up at Pennsic,
                              and having a blast with it (quick, someone quote me on that) ... My highest
                              official score with it is a 70. However, I've been practicing alot in the
                              backyard, and feel if I shot a Royal now, it would be in the 80's, at least.

                              Anyway, just a point that the skills to translate both ways. It amazed me
                              the first time I picked up a bow after shooting crossbow for so long, just
                              how natural it felt. Of course, I had been a marshal all that time and
                              taught peiople how to shoot bow, I just hadn't done it myself.

                              Siegfried



                              --
                              _________________________________________________________________________
                              THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                              Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                              Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                              http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


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                            • Siegfried
                              Ahhh, the problem there Sir Jon though, is what period are you talking about? ... While we don t know actual techqiues that were used in early period ... We
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 21, 2005
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                                Ahhh, the problem there Sir Jon though, is 'what period are you talking
                                about?' ... While we don't know actual techqiues that were used in early
                                period ...

                                We know that wooden prod crossbows existed for quite a time, and from
                                talking with a number of bowyers and experiments myself, I know that it's
                                going to be hard to get more than about a 100# pull on a wooden crossbow
                                limb. More likely even lighter.

                                This puts them well in the range of doing hip-cocking.

                                Anyway, I've never played with it but always figured that using a belt hook
                                could be an extremely fast way to cock, and very period.

                                Shoot, turn crossbow around and drop onto hook, lift foot into stirrup,
                                stomp down, pick crossbow back up.

                                Siegfried
                                (Who gets 7 off in a speed round with his crossbow - claplock - leg quiver -
                                145#)


                                Now that I too have joined the "Dark Side" (trademark registered) and
                                > have been shooting a period style crossbow for about a year, I realize
                                > that there is a problem in the timed ends between light draw and the
                                > more period heavier draw crossbows. If I knew what I know now when I
                                > was making the rules for the IKAC period crossbow division I would have
                                > tried to offset the advantage that the light draw crossbows have over
                                > the heavier crossbows. You can not always count on the wind lowering
                                > the light crossbows score at forty yards. The ability to hip or
                                > stomach cock a light crossbow greatly increases the number of bolts
                                > that be shot in 30 seconds. It seems that this would fall under the
                                > area of using modern techniques or materials to gain a advantage over
                                > those using more period styles and equipment. What I would like to see
                                > done to help even things out would be to require that in the Period
                                > division, at least, that hip or stomach cocking not be allowed. This
                                > could also be done in other competitions to reduce the advantage of the
                                > light crossbows in rate of shooting. A foot stirrup, belt hook, lever,
                                > crancquin , goats foot, etc be used for cocking. I would not want to
                                > see a minimum weight or maximum number of bolts.
                                >
                                > Jon
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                _________________________________________________________________________
                                THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Lord Caedmon Wilson
                                Let us also remember above and beyond all of the competitive arguments, IF YOU AREN T HAVING FUN, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. I have fun with my crossbow.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 21, 2005
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                                  Let us also remember above and beyond all of the "competitive"
                                  arguments, IF YOU AREN'T HAVING FUN, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.

                                  I have fun with my crossbow. Ultimately, that is what is important to me.

                                  --
                                  Lord Caedmon Wilson

                                  Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                                • coailtekweelta
                                  ... for a few ... at Pennsic, ... Some how I think I would have to see it to beleive it! Sigfreid, funny hat and all with a bow and not a crossbow? YES! Walk
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 21, 2005
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                                    > I then, after all that time, picked up the recurve again (because
                                    for a few
                                    > practices I was out of crossbow ammo)
                                    > I that day shot a 55. After a few practices, I got a 76.
                                    >
                                    > I'm currently practicing and shooting with a Longbow I picked up
                                    at Pennsic,
                                    > and having a blast with it (quick, someone quote me on that) ...



                                    Some how I think I would have to see it to beleive it! Sigfreid,
                                    funny hat and all with a bow and not a crossbow? YES! Walk into the
                                    light! *grin*



                                    My highest
                                    > official score with it is a 70. However, I've been practicing alot
                                    in the
                                    > backyard, and feel if I shot a Royal now, it would be in the 80's,
                                    at least.
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, just a point that the skills to translate both ways. It
                                    amazed me
                                    > the first time I picked up a bow after shooting crossbow for so
                                    long, just
                                    > how natural it felt. Of course, I had been a marshal all that time
                                    and
                                    > taught peiople how to shoot bow, I just hadn't done it myself.
                                    >
                                    > Siegfried
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    _____________________________________________________________________
                                    ____
                                    > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                    > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                    > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target
                                    Archery
                                    > http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Dan Scheid
                                    Elzebeth, You have gotten my point exactly. If you don t stand up and teach then resentment will continue. It the SCA choice therefore it is your choice to do
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 23, 2005
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                                      Elzebeth,
                                      You have gotten my point exactly. If you don't stand up and teach then
                                      resentment will continue. It the SCA choice therefore it is your choice to
                                      do so or not. I hope most will continue to teach.
                                      Damales

                                      I can see the point in saying it is human nature - but part of it is
                                      educating new archers as they arrive so they realize that different bows
                                      and what not require different skills.

                                      Education on the field is not limited to safety but how humans interact
                                      with their equipment and how that interaction affects shooting.

                                      I am a new archer - I just started in June, and I did get upset and
                                      concerned the first few times I tried to compare myself to a crossbowman.
                                      It was pointed out to me that they skills used are different, and you
                                      can't compare the end results. Humans can be taught to look at things in
                                      the right light. You will not beable to show a different way of looking
                                      at the two different weapons to everyone, there will always be resentment
                                      in some people.

                                      This may be an uneducated view of archery at this time. But I do believe
                                      that part of resolving this ongoing conflict is to educate people as they
                                      enter into archery.

                                      YIS
                                      Elzebeth "Muleheaded" Bluscichof - A Novice Open Handbow archer
                                      MKA Becca

                                      > Ok the resentment between the hand bow and the crossbow has nothing to do
                                      > with ether bows. It has to do with human nature and our culture.While we
                                      > live is a society that dreams of getting ahead or getting rich. The
                                      > reality
                                      > is when someone does there are those that resent it. Buy a BMW and watch
                                      > it
                                      > start. We have got to tax the rich because they have it. ECT. On the field
                                      > you get beat my George then it not that George is better. It is because
                                      > George has better stuff. The real test is how are we as the SCA going to
                                      > deal with it? Are we going stand up for what's right or are we going to
                                      > start to adjusting things for the whiners?
                                      > You make this choice every time you're hear the Fred is better because he
                                      > uses Y.
                                      > The ball is in your court
                                      > Damales
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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                                      > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                                      >
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                                      >





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                                    • Scott B. Jaqua
                                      I was shopping around for some more hardwood stock for my knife making. So I went to one of my favorite wood sources, Tropical Exotic Hardwoods of Latin
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                        I was shopping around for some more hardwood stock for my knife making.
                                        So I went to one of my favorite wood sources, Tropical Exotic Hardwoods
                                        of Latin America (who has much more then just Latin American woods).
                                        There I found some woods that might be of interest to archers, this go
                                        around. I figure the Pacific Yew Lumber or the Lemonwood (Degame) Bow
                                        Staves, might be of interest :)

                                        http://www.anexotichardwood.com/new_stuff.html

                                        This place is a short freeway drive for me (anything under two hours is
                                        a short drive in Southern California). But they do take phone orders.
                                        And they are very good at matching up your needs over the phone or via
                                        email. At one point they had a web-cam so they could show you your piece
                                        of wood on-line. I don't know if they can do that any more.

                                        Njall
                                      • Cian of Storvik
                                        Did that web site say $82 for a stave of lemonwood? I d hate to think what they would ask for a heart/sapwood stave of pacific yew. If you ve got the money
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                          Did that web site say "$82" for a stave of lemonwood? I'd hate to
                                          think what they would ask for a heart/sapwood stave of pacific yew. If
                                          you've got the money though...
                                          -Cian
                                        • Scott B. Jaqua
                                          ... Well I don t honestly know what Lemonwood should run price wise. Let alone Osage Orange. Because I don t work with these woods. But overall Tropical Exotic
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                            Cian of Storvik wrote:

                                            >Did that web site say "$82" for a stave of lemonwood? I'd hate to
                                            >think what they would ask for a heart/sapwood stave of pacific yew. If
                                            >you've got the money though...
                                            >-Cian
                                            >
                                            >
                                            Well I don't honestly know what Lemonwood should run price wise. Let
                                            alone Osage Orange. Because I don't work with these woods. But overall
                                            Tropical Exotic Hardwoods has some of the better prices I have found
                                            (and of course when they have a parking lot sale it's even better (like
                                            the pink ivory handle blocks I paid 50 cents a pound for, instead of
                                            $2.00 a pound everywhere else)). They certainly beat the Lumber Lady's
                                            on-line prices (at least for the woods I buy). And they sure as shooting
                                            beat Woodcraft (a store local to me) or Ganahl Lumber (local yard that
                                            carries a large selection of hardwood).

                                            Now I will say hardwood prices have jumped everywhere over the last 5
                                            years. In some cases I'm paying double and triple what I used to. I'm
                                            very afraid that going to be a on-going fact of life.

                                            Njall
                                          • jameswolfden
                                            Most bowyers prefer to get wood from another bowyer as a lumber yard may not always know what makes a good stave. For comparisons, you might want to check
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Oct 25, 2005
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                                              Most bowyers prefer to get wood from another bowyer as a lumber yard
                                              may not always know what makes a good stave. For comparisons, you
                                              might want to check Murray Gaskins site

                                              http://www.murraygaskins.com/pricelist.html

                                              I suspect lemonwood is expensive solely because it is not imported in
                                              any sizeable quantity. For the price of the lemonwood, you can pick
                                              up some yew billets from Murray.

                                              James

                                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Scott B. Jaqua" <hagerson@p...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Cian of Storvik wrote:
                                              >
                                              > >Did that web site say "$82" for a stave of lemonwood? I'd hate to
                                              > >think what they would ask for a heart/sapwood stave of pacific
                                              yew. If
                                              > >you've got the money though...
                                              > >-Cian
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > Well I don't honestly know what Lemonwood should run price wise.
                                              Let
                                              > alone Osage Orange. Because I don't work with these woods. But
                                              overall
                                              > Tropical Exotic Hardwoods has some of the better prices I have
                                              found
                                              > (and of course when they have a parking lot sale it's even better
                                              (like
                                              > the pink ivory handle blocks I paid 50 cents a pound for, instead
                                              of
                                              > $2.00 a pound everywhere else)). They certainly beat the Lumber
                                              Lady's
                                              > on-line prices (at least for the woods I buy). And they sure as
                                              shooting
                                              > beat Woodcraft (a store local to me) or Ganahl Lumber (local yard
                                              that
                                              > carries a large selection of hardwood).
                                              >
                                              > Now I will say hardwood prices have jumped everywhere over the last
                                              5
                                              > years. In some cases I'm paying double and triple what I used to.
                                              I'm
                                              > very afraid that going to be a on-going fact of life.
                                              >
                                              > Njall
                                              >
                                            • DavidP005
                                              I was unawair that lemonwood was even available in the U.S. any more. I have 1 stave of lemonwood that I obtained from an older gentleman that had brought it
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Oct 26, 2005
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                                                I was unawair that lemonwood was even available in the U.S. any
                                                more. I have 1 stave of lemonwood that I obtained from an older
                                                gentleman that had brought it back from Cuba many years ago. I
                                                wouldn't be surprised if it grew outside Cuba but I have yet to find
                                                a place that grows it. I've been dealing mainly with good Italian
                                                and English Yew and Osage Orange. About the only thing I keep in
                                                stock is the Osage Orange as I have a readily available source for
                                                it; namely a couple of friends who own large pieces of property. I
                                                get it for nothing other than the time it takes to cut it down and
                                                split it. Occaionally I trade a properly aged stave to another
                                                friend for a couple dozen raw Sitka Spruce arrow shafts he makes.
                                                Yea, I do use cedar arrows with my bows but it's hard to find cedar
                                                shafts splined for over 65-70 lb draw weights. But the spruce I
                                                found just shoots better.

                                                Tex

                                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden"
                                                <jameswolfden@y...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Most bowyers prefer to get wood from another bowyer as a lumber
                                                yard
                                                > may not always know what makes a good stave. For comparisons, you
                                                > might want to check Murray Gaskins site
                                                >
                                                > http://www.murraygaskins.com/pricelist.html
                                                >
                                                > I suspect lemonwood is expensive solely because it is not imported
                                                in
                                                > any sizeable quantity. For the price of the lemonwood, you can
                                                pick
                                                > up some yew billets from Murray.
                                                >
                                                > James
                                                >
                                                > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Scott B. Jaqua"
                                                <hagerson@p...>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Cian of Storvik wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > >Did that web site say "$82" for a stave of lemonwood? I'd hate
                                                to
                                                > > >think what they would ask for a heart/sapwood stave of pacific
                                                > yew. If
                                                > > >you've got the money though...
                                                > > >-Cian
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > Well I don't honestly know what Lemonwood should run price wise.
                                                > Let
                                                > > alone Osage Orange. Because I don't work with these woods. But
                                                > overall
                                                > > Tropical Exotic Hardwoods has some of the better prices I have
                                                > found
                                                > > (and of course when they have a parking lot sale it's even
                                                better
                                                > (like
                                                > > the pink ivory handle blocks I paid 50 cents a pound for,
                                                instead
                                                > of
                                                > > $2.00 a pound everywhere else)). They certainly beat the Lumber
                                                > Lady's
                                                > > on-line prices (at least for the woods I buy). And they sure as
                                                > shooting
                                                > > beat Woodcraft (a store local to me) or Ganahl Lumber (local
                                                yard
                                                > that
                                                > > carries a large selection of hardwood).
                                                > >
                                                > > Now I will say hardwood prices have jumped everywhere over the
                                                last
                                                > 5
                                                > > years. In some cases I'm paying double and triple what I used
                                                to.
                                                > I'm
                                                > > very afraid that going to be a on-going fact of life.
                                                > >
                                                > > Njall
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • Siegfried
                                                ... Yeah, well biggest problem I have found is that I can t wear the funny hat with my quiver on my back. *sigh* Gotta either make a new quiver that sits
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Oct 31, 2005
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                                                  >
                                                  > Some how I think I would have to see it to beleive it! Sigfreid,
                                                  > funny hat and all with a bow and not a crossbow? YES! Walk into the
                                                  > light! *grin*


                                                  Yeah, well biggest problem I have found is that I can't wear the funny hat
                                                  with my quiver on my back.

                                                  *sigh*

                                                  Gotta either make a new quiver that sits lower, or make a new funny hat just
                                                  for bow shooting. :)

                                                  Siegfried



                                                  --
                                                  _________________________________________________________________________
                                                  THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                                  Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                                  Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                                  http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


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