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Rankings

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  • Cian of Storvik
    I don t see a problem with rankings in general. They are milestones to acheive, and there is friendly competition amongst friends to see who can get to the
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 1, 2005
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      I don't see a problem with rankings in general. They are milestones
      to acheive, and there is friendly competition amongst friends to see
      who can get to the next level first.
      Archery is one of the few quantitative activities that you can put a
      score to and have a point regulated ranking. Do the bards get level
      badges for the number of poems/songs they can recite? Do fighters
      get a badge for reaching a certain number of people they've beaten?
      Do scribes get ranked by the number of manuscripts they've
      replicated? You get the idea.
      Most Orders in the SCA are "Granted". That is, you are just as
      likely to get the award from who you know as you are from what you
      have actually done. That's not to say that most members of a
      particular Order don't deserve it, but if you are granted membership
      to an order after reaching a 100RR, but then someone else is entered
      in later (let's say a buddy of the King) who has never broke 80. It
      makes you think.
      Rank badges are something you actually have to EARN. Doesn't matter
      how much the Earl Marshal or Deputy Earl Marshal likes you, you
      aren't that rank badge until you've scored it.
      I eagerly look forward to reaching the next rank level (and proudly
      display my meager rank badge), and yet I couldn't care less if I
      were "granted" an award of merit or an AoA. I would toss the award
      in a box and never think of it again. And i know several archers
      that feel the same way. They don't want the politics that tend to
      accompany Grants of Arms and Awards of Arms.

      As a new marshal, I've been on the receiving end of the complaints
      over using our current RR system. (I agree it's not perfect, but
      what system is?) Some complaints I get are:
      -"Why don't we average ALL of our scores for the last month
      together? That would give a more realistic median average then
      taking the top 3 luckiest rounds in 12 months."
      -"Why do we rank crossbowmen and handbows the same when the RR is
      biased towards the crossbow? Why don't we have different colored
      badges or different hall marks for crossbow and handbow?"
      -"Why are people allowed to use modern recurves when there are
      affordable period bows that they can use, some are even a fraction
      of thier new $600 Martin take down?"

      I can understand the "complaints", and though I lend a sympathetic
      ear, I also understand the reality and rationalization of each
      issue. Atlantia (my native land), has atleast started to catagorize
      the users by bow type on the scoring page, which though it doesn't
      handicap or alter the scoring for different types of bows, does make
      it apparent who is using what (and that's good enough for me).

      -Cian (the badge maker) who is happy to be a grunt (never a lord or
      Sir) and ranked alongside his fellow archers of all kingdoms
      (whether crossbowman, recurve or period bow is their preference).
    • James Koch
      Cian, ... Here in the Midrealm the scores are displayed along with the bow type, crossbow, recurve, longbow. As a crossbow shooter I don t compare my scores
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 2, 2005
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        Cian,


        >As a new marshal, I've been on the receiving end of the complaints
        >over using our current RR system. (I agree it's not perfect, but
        >what system is?) Some complaints I get are:
        >-"Why don't we average ALL of our scores for the last month
        >together? That would give a more realistic median average then
        >taking the top 3 luckiest rounds in 12 months."
        >-"Why do we rank crossbowmen and handbows the same when the RR is
        >biased towards the crossbow? Why don't we have different colored
        >badges or different hall marks for crossbow and handbow?"
        >-"Why are people allowed to use modern recurves when there are
        >affordable period bows that they can use, some are even a fraction
        >of thier new $600 Martin take down?"

        Here in the Midrealm the scores are displayed along with the bow type,
        crossbow, recurve, longbow. As a crossbow shooter I don't compare my
        scores to the hand bow folks even though they are tabulated on the same
        chart. As to breaking it down even further by adding self bow and other
        categories, it would make it easier for people co see how they are
        performing compared to others with similar equipment.
        >
        As to displaying only the average of the top three scores for the season, I
        see this as being done for the sake of simplicity. It also gives an
        advantage to someone who shoots regularly as opposed to someone who can
        submit only 3 or 4 scores per year. It would be nice though to have a
        batting average for each archer for the entire season. The problem of
        course would be that all scores would have to be submitted, including the
        really dismal ones. When I say all scores I mean either the high score of
        a day or all scores shot that day.
        >
        Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
      • rorikscaviking
        As the ranks of archers swells so to does the disappointment and resentment associated with bows and crossbows ranked equally together in the scores. It s
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 9, 2005
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          As the ranks of archers swells so to does the disappointment and
          resentment associated with bows and crossbows ranked equally
          together in the scores. It's similar to ranking rapier and heavy
          fighting together in my opinion.

          Rorik

          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@e...> wrote:
          >
          > Cian,
          >
          > >As a new marshal, Some complaints I get are:
          > >-"Why do we rank crossbowmen and handbows the same when
          > > the RR is biased towards the crossbow? Why don't we
          > > have different colored badges or different hall marks
          > > for crossbow and handbow?"
          >
          > As a crossbow shooter I don't compare my scores to the hand
          > bow folks even though they are tabulated on the same
          > chart. As to breaking it down even further by adding self bow
          > and other categories, it would make it easier for people co
          > see how they are performing compared to others with similar
          > equipment.
        • Lord Caedmon Wilson
          ... For that resentment to appear, the person must alread possess a resentment to a specific bow type. With crossbow, I only compare my scores to other
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 17, 2005
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            On 10/9/05, rorikscaviking <rorikscaviking@...> wrote:
            > As the ranks of archers swells so to does the disappointment and
            > resentment associated with bows and crossbows ranked equally
            > together in the scores. It's similar to ranking rapier and heavy
            > fighting together in my opinion.

            For that resentment to appear, the person must alread possess a
            resentment to a specific bow type.

            With crossbow, I only compare my scores to other crossbows. With my
            recurve (Martin X-100), I only compare my scores to other recurves.
            With my longbow (made by woodbows.com), I don't even begin to compare
            my scores with other longbows because I rarely have a chance to
            practice with it these days,

            As for the royal round being tilted towards crossbows, I would
            disagree. There have been many great handbows who could easily shoot
            our royal round and laugh at it. Howard Hill shot a longbow. Maurice
            and Will Thompson. The list is endless. There are SCA archers who
            have proven that theory wrong, as well.

            It comes down practice. One must practice smart, not hard. And, you
            will only shoot as well as you can shoot smart. Which, only comes
            with practice.

            --
            Lord Caedmon Wilson

            Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
          • Dan Scheid
            Resentment comes from people not the type of bow or type of shoot Damales / ... For that resentment to appear, the person must alread possess a resentment to a
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 17, 2005
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              Resentment comes from people not the type of bow or type of shoot
              Damales
              /
              On 10/9/05, rorikscaviking <rorikscaviking@...> wrote:
              > As the ranks of archers swells so to does the disappointment and
              > resentment associated with bows and crossbows ranked equally
              > together in the scores. It's similar to ranking rapier and heavy
              > fighting together in my opinion.

              For that resentment to appear, the person must alread possess a
              resentment to a specific bow type.

              With crossbow, I only compare my scores to other crossbows. With my
              recurve (Martin X-100), I only compare my scores to other recurves.
              With my longbow (made by woodbows.com), I don't even begin to compare
              my scores with other longbows because I rarely have a chance to
              practice with it these days,

              As for the royal round being tilted towards crossbows, I would
              disagree. There have been many great handbows who could easily shoot
              our royal round and laugh at it. Howard Hill shot a longbow. Maurice
              and Will Thompson. The list is endless. There are SCA archers who
              have proven that theory wrong, as well.

              It comes down practice. One must practice smart, not hard. And, you
              will only shoot as well as you can shoot smart. Which, only comes
              with practice.

              --
              Lord Caedmon Wilson

              Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal


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            • Russ Sheldon
              Greetings, In my years within the society I would have to say that it is an educational issue for those archers who state this. The highest scores for Royal
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 17, 2005
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                Greetings,
                In my years within the society I would have to say that it is an
                educational issue for those archers who state this. The highest scores for
                Royal Rounds or IKAC are as far as I know have been done with a bow, not
                with a crossbow. The problem is that you can have two archers who start at
                the same time in the society and one uses a bow and the other a crossbow.
                The one using the crossbow will achieve higher scores quicker than the
                archer with the bow. This is where the resentment starts. If the archer with
                the bow though sticks it out for long enough he will eventually catch and
                pass the archer with the Crossbow (IMHO). One is just more forgiving and
                easier to pick up than the other. For example I have a RR average in the
                120's with a recurve, usually play in the 310+ in IKAC again with recurve.
                Up till this year I have never shot a crossbow more than to see how it works
                so I would be able to inspect them as a marshal. Pulled one out and my first
                RR ever with a crossbow is a 92. I know some archers who have been shooting
                for 3 or more years who getting a 50 is a big deal with a bow. Do I think
                I'll get better than 92...not likely, my fingers and body ,with the crossbow
                I'm using, just wont allow me to do speed rounds right for what I know right
                now. In the future, if I wanted to go to the dark side ;-) , maybe I could
                figure out a better way to do the speed rounds but as far as I'm concerned I
                rather just dabble.
                Surprisingly the ease for which someone could master a crossbow was one
                of the reasons Continental Europe used them so much. Wow another thing we
                sort of are recreating ;-) .

                Just some of my thoughts.

                Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
                Archer General for the Kingdom of Ealdormere

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "rorikscaviking" <rorikscaviking@...>
                To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:14 AM
                Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Rankings


                > As the ranks of archers swells so to does the disappointment and
                > resentment associated with bows and crossbows ranked equally
                > together in the scores. It's similar to ranking rapier and heavy
                > fighting together in my opinion.
                >
                > Rorik
                >
                > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, James Koch <alchem@e...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Cian,
                >>
                >> >As a new marshal, Some complaints I get are:
                >> >-"Why do we rank crossbowmen and handbows the same when
                >> > the RR is biased towards the crossbow? Why don't we
                >> > have different colored badges or different hall marks
                >> > for crossbow and handbow?"
                >>
                >> As a crossbow shooter I don't compare my scores to the hand
                >> bow folks even though they are tabulated on the same
                >> chart. As to breaking it down even further by adding self bow
                >> and other categories, it would make it easier for people co
                >> see how they are performing compared to others with similar
                >> equipment.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • jameswolfden
                In An Tir, the top ten rankings are kept for various divisions of the Royal Rounds and York Rounds. The awarding of medals by divisions does encourage archers
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 17, 2005
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                  In An Tir, the top ten rankings are kept for various divisions of the
                  Royal Rounds and York Rounds. The awarding of medals by divisions
                  does encourage archers to shoot outside the open division. It does
                  take away any concern that crossbow gives an advantage since crossbow
                  is in its own class. However, most new archers always seem to start
                  with center-shot recurves which fall under the open division.

                  By checking out the On Target website at
                  http://www.zateev.net/ontarget/framesets/top_archery_frameset.html
                  one can compare the crossbow division against the open division. I
                  just went back to 2000 but the Open division outscores the Crossbow
                  division.

                  Here is just a quick comparison of the range of top ten scores for
                  the years

                  2004 Open 97.7 - 129.7 Crossbow 83.3 - 112.3
                  2003 Open 97.7 - 128.3 Crossbow 64.7 - 104.7
                  2002 Open 91.7 - 124.7 Crossbow 59.7 - 103.0
                  2001 Open 95.0 - 122.3 Crossbow 74.3 - 104.0
                  2000 Open 97.3 - 122.3 Crossbow 65.3 - 111.3

                  We have fewer people shooting crossbow which accounts for some of the
                  range difference.

                  The York Round has recently been split into handbow and crossbow. At
                  this greater range, we are seeing the scores from the high power
                  crossbows show significantly higher than the handbow scores.

                  I like the separation into the different divisions. it works to
                  encourage people into shooting more period equipment.

                  James Wolfden
                • Jeffrey Webb
                  Greetings, Let s not all get on poor Rorik s case about his statement. What he said was true. The resentment IS there. You may disagree with the justification
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 17, 2005
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                    Greetings,
                    Let's not all get on poor Rorik's case about his statement. What he said was true. The resentment IS there. You may disagree with the justification of the resentment, but it does exist.
                    What else was stated about how those that pick up the crossbow advance much quicker than those that use primarily the handbow is also true. And it does tend to level out much more when you get higher in the ranks, but there will always be shooting situations that favor crossbows and shooting situations that favor handbows.
                    Some archers like to shoot all forms of bows and some like to shoot only one form.
                    That's fine. It really IS all about what the individual enjoys doing.
                    When you are shooting for scores for ranking such as in rr or ikac, you are practicing a solitary sport. You are only competing against yourself and what your previous best score was.
                    That's how you should measure it.
                    You know when you've shot well and you know when you've shot poorly. All the rest is just for bookkeepers, not archers.
                    Respectfully,
                    -Geoffrei
                  • Lord Antony
                    Well Said Geoffrei! I started out with a recurve and made it to Bowman (almost an 80 average) in the East before my shoulder started bothering me. I crossed
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 17, 2005
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                      Well Said Geoffrei! I started out with a recurve and made it to Bowman
                      (almost an 80 average) in the East before my shoulder started bothering me.
                      I crossed over to the dark side and now shoot a crossbow. I suspect that I
                      could easily have advanced further with my recurve given time...

                      Also, as noted by others, most of the top scores here in the East are NOT
                      from crossbows... In my case it is the timed end that keeps me from getting
                      a much higher score than I currently have as most of my bolts now hit yellow
                      with some reds (usually 1 or two per end) and an occasional lesser ring -
                      however I did shoot my first 30 point end at 30 yards not too long ago... I
                      was proud of that feat though I have not repeated it since.

                      I also STRONGLY agree that RR shooting is truly a solo sport where you are
                      really competing against your previous best. That is what motivates me to
                      get better, not the fact that others can shoot better than I can. The
                      ranking system is there merely so that others are able to recognize how far
                      an individual has progressed in their self-improvement. [would you rather
                      ask a question of an Archer (less than 40 pt avg in the East) or a Grand
                      Master Bowman (over 100 pt avg) - who do you think would give better
                      advise?] In life there will ALWAYS be someone better than you in most things
                      so why complain.

                      Antony

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Jeffrey Webb" <jrosswebb1@...>
                      To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 5:11 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Rankings


                      > Greetings,
                      > Let's not all get on poor Rorik's case about his statement. What he
                      said was true. The resentment IS there. You may disagree with the
                      justification of the resentment, but it does exist.
                      > What else was stated about how those that pick up the crossbow
                      advance much quicker than those that use primarily the handbow is also true.
                      And it does tend to level out much more when you get higher in the ranks,
                      but there will always be shooting situations that favor crossbows and
                      shooting situations that favor handbows.
                      > Some archers like to shoot all forms of bows and some like to shoot
                      only one form.
                      > That's fine. It really IS all about what the individual enjoys doing.
                      > When you are shooting for scores for ranking such as in rr or ikac,
                      you are practicing a solitary sport. You are only competing against yourself
                      and what your previous best score was.
                      > That's how you should measure it.
                      > You know when you've shot well and you know when you've shot poorly. All
                      the rest is just for bookkeepers, not archers.
                      > Respectfully,
                      > -Geoffrei
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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