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Period Target vs. FITA Target

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  • Lord Caedmon Wilson
    Or, instead of asking groups to outright scrap their current FITA-based target rankings, a parallel system could be created. It could start out as an
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 30, 2005
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      Or, instead of asking groups to outright scrap their current
      FITA-based target rankings, a parallel system could be created.

      It could start out as an experiment, one where a small group of
      dedicated archers from a kingdom is asked to use and shoot for score a
      royal round with the period target. After a season of this testing,
      their scores can be compared to their FITA-based scores. With a large
      enough sample of archers, a statistically-valid comparison could be
      made and applied to all ranked scores to see the effects.

      Have the parallel royal round run for a few years, encourage your
      kingdom's archers to use both systems, then begin phasing out the old
      system after 3 to 5 years once a certain number of scores has been
      achieved to create an appropriate ranking system equivalent to the
      FITA-based results.

      It wouldn't be quick, but in theory, a kingdom could easily switch to
      period face only with their standard royal round (or whatever they may
      call their standard archery ranking contest) after 5 to 7 years.

      Patience and perseverance are needed.

      --
      Lord Caedmon Wilson

      Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
    • Siegfried
      ... This is true, and has been brought up before ... what really would be needed, would be a day-by-day comparison. Have people, on each day, shoot a few
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 30, 2005
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        On 9/30/05, Lord Caedmon Wilson <caedmon.wilson@...> wrote:
        >
        > Or, instead of asking groups to outright scrap their current
        > FITA-based target rankings, a parallel system could be created.


        This is true, and has been brought up before ... what really would be
        needed, would be a day-by-day comparison. Have people, on each day, shoot a
        few 'regular' royals, and a few 'period' royals, and compare those. It
        actually wouldn't take all that long to get a good rough-timate of what the
        equivilant ranking levels should be.

        And the parallel system idea, is one that could be the easiest to implement.

        The biggest problem with this, though, still lies within each Kingdom. How
        each Kingdom happens to run it's ranking system, well, it will need to
        figure out how to handle the change.

        Those kingdoms who use non-permanent rankings would not have as big of a
        problem, as when the switch happens, you just have people start shooting the
        new one, and quickly their 'new ranking' is formed. The problem gets worse
        though in Kingdoms where archers permanently keep their rankings. How do you
        handle that when the new system comes into place, since it won't be a direct
        translation (try scoring an IKAC as both regular and Period some time. You
        will be amazed at how the Period score can be above, or below, the regular
        IKAC, just really comes down to how many 8's did you get)

        The 'simplest' solution there, would be to essentially create an entirely
        different ranking structure, different badges, different rank names, etc.
        People can still keep their 'old rank' with the 'old shoot'. But now can
        also obtain the new ones.

        Other solutions that keep the same ranks/badges, can potentially have people
        upset.

        *shrug* There are solutions, just nothing really 'easy'.

        Siegfried



        --
        _________________________________________________________________________
        THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
        Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
        Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
        http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • James Koch
        ... It might actually be simpler to come up with a conversion factor by which to multiply each Royal Round score to give a roughly equivalent score under the
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 30, 2005
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          >
          >This is true, and has been brought up before ... what really would be
          >needed, would be a day-by-day comparison. Have people, on each day, shoot a
          >few 'regular' royals, and a few 'period' royals, and compare those. It
          >actually wouldn't take all that long to get a good rough-timate of what the
          >equivilant ranking levels should be.
          It might actually be simpler to come up with a conversion factor by which
          to multiply each Royal Round score to give a roughly equivalent score under
          the new system. This could be done by overlaying the 60cm target with the
          SCA period target. Then look at all the possible permutations and
          combinations and pick one closest to the average.
          >
          For instance a royal round end of 6 arrows scoring 30 points would require
          all 6 in the gold and would probably correspond to a single period target
          score, assuming the inner ring of the FITA target is smaller than the inner
          ring of the period target. An end of 6 arrows scoring 29 points could
          indicates a score of 5+5+5+5+5+4=29 and can be scored only one way. This
          might correspond to two different scores on the period face depending on
          the diameter of the inner ring.
          >
          This would be easy enough to do until you get to Royal Round scores of 15
          points which could be 5+5+5=15, 3+3+3+3+3=15, 3+3+3+3+2+1=15,
          3+3+3+2+2+2=15, and so on and so forth. A Royal Round end score of 1 point
          can be gotten in only one way, while an end score of 2 can be 2 or 1+1=2.
          >
          As I mentioned, I could probably write a simple computer program to do the
          number crunching and figure the period face scores which would be roughly
          equivalent to the Royal Round scores. One problem we might run into is
          that with only three rings, the period target face might be too course to
          handle the current higher Royal Round scores. I'd have to have a better
          idea of the diameter of the inner ring on the period target. So what are
          the dimensions of the period target? I have a few 60cm FITA targets for
          comparison.
          >
          Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
        • blkknighti@aol.com
          I like to address the two primary topics in this thread as just a matter of my 2 cents. On the subject of rankings. I don t really see the ranking system as an
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 30, 2005
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            I like to address the two primary topics in this thread as just a matter of
            my 2 cents.

            On the subject of rankings. I don't really see the ranking system as an evil
            of any kind at all. Humans are competitive animals. In competition someone
            comes out on top and someone at the bottom. Its the common tread between us.
            Ranking systems are a way to calibrate our skills with another and also to reward
            the hard work that has been put into achieving thisskill. For some of us this
            is of no import, for others it is. Some like to brag, some are humble some are
            simply involved in Archery for the shear fun of it some to test themselves.
            It seems to me that if there is any ill to a ranking system it is with the
            individuals who dishonour it by their individual actions.
            Eliminating a ranking system deprives many of the enjoyment of competition
            and its rewards. Those who don't like a ranking system and wish to just enjoy
            shooting can very redily ingnore it and not partake in the ranking process.

            Now to the target business. Forgive me but I will speak from MSR experience
            in the MSR Kingdom of Acre (for those who don't know it is a smaller group
            covering a smaller historic period 1000-1500) where a couple of years ago we
            changed from the 60 cm FITA to the same face as the IKAC "period" and identical
            method of scoring as in the SCA.
            Needless to say there was great consternation by opponents who offered every
            argument in the book on why it was bad. The proponents of the change took a
            "lets take a serious look at it and decide based on the results".
            I will try to be brief.
            There was an attempt to find the difference based on random theoretical
            incedence statistically comparing the two faces. The math involved proved to be
            faulty as well as the premise. When an expert in statistical analisys was
            presented with the data and the problem, he was impressed by the thorough and
            thoughtful undertakeing... but concluded what we had found was not telling as archery
            is not a random based occurance and in this case the statictical analisys
            needed to be based on direct comparison of sampled scores.
            Well the idea of taking a five color fita target scoring and a scoring as it
            would be were it the three color "period" scoring face and comparing the two
            for each Round shot. We actually began to mark the back of the FITA target with
            the "period" face using the lines from the other side as guides and a compass
            the we could scor the front flip it over and scor the back. We used a variety
            of archers at a variety of skill levels and directly compared the results in
            each case and the average.
            Most of the scores were same on both faces. Of the ones that varied it was
            mostly 1-3 points and equally plus and minus (which seemed to eventually work
            out to balance statistically when averaged) with the occational "fluke" of
            four points. No matter how we tried to look at it seemed the results were so
            close (working out to a margin of differnce below the decimal point in average)
            in practical application that we decided to employ the "period" face without
            concern about its effect on Royal Round standings.
            Now this doesn't address how it would affect rankings because in the MSR our
            rankings are not purely score based but more subjective as say Knighthood in
            rattan and includes several aspects of the contribution to archery as a whole
            in the kingdom etc.

            Disclaimer! I don't have the data at hand and I would be hard pressed to find
            it all. Secondly, the data gathered was not what I would consider absolute
            and comprehensive as there was, as I remember, a limited number of comparason
            rounds shot I believe under one hundred. We ceased collecting the data as we
            were satisfied with the results for our purpose. Third, I am not advocating one
            way or another, I simply wanted to inform on a process that worked for the MSR.
            Currently, there is no residual problems with the change to the "period"
            face, even the most vehemently opposed at the time now concur.

            Hope this helps.
            Richard



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • blkknighti@aol.com
            the period target face I mentioned the MSR use is 6cm,24cm, and 60 cm. I just checked at a IKAC webpage (http://user.gru.net/elisande/ikac_rules.htm) and got
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 30, 2005
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              the "period" target face I mentioned the MSR use is 6cm,24cm, and 60 cm.
              I just checked at a IKAC webpage
              (http://user.gru.net/elisande/ikac_rules.htm) and got this:
              "PERIOD FACE:
              Those archers wishing to shoot a more period looking target are encouraged
              to make and use the period face. The target is based on the one from the
              Luttrell Psalter. The target represents a two ring target with a center peg. The peg
              was used to hold the target to the butt. Splitting the peg or pin was the
              best shot, so those arrows hitting dead center score highest. The colors are from
              the inner ring or peg to outer ring: Or, Vert, and Argent. It is scored:
              Argent=2, Vert=4 and Or=8. Four points are given for a pass through or bounce off.
              The target face is equal in size to the current five ring, 60 cm. target now
              in use for the IKAC. The target may be made by hand by using a compass. The
              diameters of the rings are 6 cm., 24 cm. and 60 cm. The black line between the
              rings may be no wider than 2 mm. Yellow may be substituted for the gold and
              white for the silver. The vert should be a dark green. The back side of a 60
              cm., five color target may be used by carefully tracing the rings."

              Same as the MSR.

              Richard
              In a message dated 9/30/05 7:57:43 PM, alchem@... writes:


              > As I mentioned, I could probably write a simple computer program to do the
              > number crunching and figure the period face scores which would be roughly
              > equivalent to the Royal Round scores.  One problem we might run into is
              > that with only three rings, the period target face might be too course to
              > handle the current higher Royal Round scores.  I'd have to have a better
              > idea of the diameter of the inner ring on the period target.  So what are
              > the dimensions of the period target?  I have a few 60cm FITA targets for
              > comparison.
              > >
              > Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)    
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John edgerton
              Interesting to read this. When I was making the rules for the new Period division I set the scoring up on an educated guess basis. With the idea that
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 30, 2005
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                Interesting to read this. When I was making the rules for the new
                "Period " division I set the scoring up on an "educated guess" basis.
                With the idea that scores between the two different targets would have
                little difference, except for anyone that could consistently shoot the
                "peg" in the center of the golf for 8 points. Then the little bit of
                testing that was done seem to also confirm that there was very little
                difference between the two sets of scores. Nice to know that it proved
                correct.

                Jon, who is now trying to do some research on a very interesting
                Italian period crossbow target (not the one with the cone center).

                On Friday, September 30, 2005, at 06:17 PM, blkknighti@... wrote:

                misc deleted

                > Well the idea of taking a five color fita target scoring and a scoring
                > as it
                > would be were it the three color "period" scoring face and comparing
                > the two
                > for each Round shot. We actually began to mark the back of the FITA
                > target with
                > the "period" face using the lines from the other side as guides and a
                > compass
                > the we could scor the front flip it over and scor the back. We used a
                > variety
                > of archers at a variety of skill levels and directly compared the
                > results in
                > each case and the average.
                > Most of the scores were same on both faces. Of the ones that varied it
                > was
                > mostly 1-3 points and equally plus and minus (which seemed to
                > eventually work
                > out to balance statistically when averaged) with the occational
                > "fluke" of
                > four points. No matter how we tried to look at it seemed the results
                > were so
                > close (working out to a margin of differnce below the decimal point
                > in average)
                > in practical application that we decided to employ the "period" face
                > without
                > concern about its effect on Royal Round standings.
                > Now this doesn't address how it would affect rankings because in the
                > MSR our
                > rankings are not purely score based but more subjective as say
                > Knighthood in
                > rattan and includes several aspects of the contribution to archery as
                > a whole
                > in the kingdom etc.
                >
                > Disclaimer! I don't have the data at hand and I would be hard pressed
                > to find
                > it all. Secondly, the data gathered was not what I would consider
                > absolute
                > and comprehensive as there was, as I remember, a limited number of
                > comparason
                > rounds shot I believe under one hundred. We ceased collecting the data
                > as we
                > were satisfied with the results for our purpose. Third, I am not
                > advocating one
                > way or another, I simply wanted to inform on a process that worked for
                > the MSR.
                > Currently, there is no residual problems with the change to the
                > "period"
                > face, even the most vehemently opposed at the time now concur.
                >
                > Hope this helps.
                > Richard
              • Carolus von Eulenhorst
                This is simple in concept but much harder to accomplish in reality. A couple of cases in point. When I was shooting a number of indoor FITA I competitions at
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 30, 2005
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                  This is simple in concept but much harder to accomplish in
                  reality. A couple of cases in point. When I was shooting a number
                  of indoor FITA I competitions at 40 cm targets I was getting quite
                  good at putting an end of 3 arrows in a Gold the size of a
                  quarter. When I changed to 60cm faces I found it hard to not throw
                  at least one nearly in the red. I simply didn't have the tight spot
                  to focus on. Similarly, the lady (I can't remember her name) who
                  shot the first perfect double Fita I with crossbow, wanted to do so
                  on a single face. A competitor demanded she use a fresh face for the
                  second round (technically required, but possible to waive). The
                  result? As the first round progressed and the shot out hole
                  increased the lady's groups got larger until the nearly touched the
                  10 ring. With the new face her groups again returned to tight packed
                  clusters in the very center thus actually improving her shooting.

                  My point in this is that as the period face has only 3 rings of 2
                  colors, the psychological effects can be vastly different. We really
                  need the empirical comparison to judge the effects and
                  results. While this is a game which can be measured by numbers, it
                  is not able to be predicted by numbers. This is one reason why the
                  current Olympic Round (OR) is so often won by someone not predicted
                  to be in the finals. While all the shooting is done at 70 meters at
                  an 80cm face, the pressure of a head to head faceoff can totally
                  change things for a shooter. As one who worked with the scoring team
                  at the 1983 World Championship and 1984 Olympics (using the old FITA
                  round and not the OR) and had a chance to run the numbers and compare
                  the effects of range and face size, I can tell you predictions went
                  out the window.

                  The numbers would be nice as an exercise and comparison point but I'm
                  not sure it is a reliable indicator.

                  Carolus

                  At 04:57 PM 9/30/2005, you wrote:


                  > >
                  > >This is true, and has been brought up before ... what really would be
                  > >needed, would be a day-by-day comparison. Have people, on each day, shoot a
                  > >few 'regular' royals, and a few 'period' royals, and compare those. It
                  > >actually wouldn't take all that long to get a good rough-timate of what the
                  > >equivilant ranking levels should be.
                  >It might actually be simpler to come up with a conversion factor by which
                  >to multiply each Royal Round score to give a roughly equivalent score under
                  >the new system. This could be done by overlaying the 60cm target with the
                  >SCA period target. Then look at all the possible permutations and
                  >combinations and pick one closest to the average.
                  > >
                  >For instance a royal round end of 6 arrows scoring 30 points would require
                  >all 6 in the gold and would probably correspond to a single period target
                  >score, assuming the inner ring of the FITA target is smaller than the inner
                  >ring of the period target. An end of 6 arrows scoring 29 points could
                  >indicates a score of 5+5+5+5+5+4=29 and can be scored only one way. This
                  >might correspond to two different scores on the period face depending on
                  >the diameter of the inner ring.
                  > >
                  >This would be easy enough to do until you get to Royal Round scores of 15
                  >points which could be 5+5+5=15, 3+3+3+3+3=15, 3+3+3+3+2+1=15,
                  >3+3+3+2+2+2=15, and so on and so forth. A Royal Round end score of 1 point
                  >can be gotten in only one way, while an end score of 2 can be 2 or 1+1=2.
                  > >
                  >As I mentioned, I could probably write a simple computer program to do the
                  >number crunching and figure the period face scores which would be roughly
                  >equivalent to the Royal Round scores. One problem we might run into is
                  >that with only three rings, the period target face might be too course to
                  >handle the current higher Royal Round scores. I'd have to have a better
                  >idea of the diameter of the inner ring on the period target. So what are
                  >the dimensions of the period target? I have a few 60cm FITA targets for
                  >comparison.
                  > >
                  >Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • John edgerton
                  I am considering running a crossbow only competition next year, possibly at AnTir s 40YC.. I do not want to put the furthest target too far from the shooting
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 7, 2005
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                    I am considering running a crossbow only competition next year,
                    possibly at AnTir's 40YC.. I do not want to put the furthest target
                    too far from the shooting line. But, would like to stretch the ability
                    of the shooters a bit. So, I would like to hear from as many crossbow
                    shooters as possible as to what the maximum range is that they can
                    shoot accurately. For example keeping all the bolts on a 60 cm face.
                    If you could also give the poundage and type of prod for your crossbow,
                    or any related other information, it would be most helpful.

                    Another part of the competition may include a period crossbow face
                    target, which is being researched, that will be most interesting to
                    shoot. It includes negative as well as positive points, as well as the
                    chance to lose a turn in shooting if you miss the center by too much.
                    No timed ends. Just shooting as accurately as possible, which is a
                    major quality of a crossbow.

                    Thank you for any help you can give.

                    Jon


                    Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West, Mists, Esfenn
                    An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
                    cunning of mind.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Siegfried
                    Off the top of my head ... I d say that d be doable from 100yds ... Maybe farther ... Especially given adequate sightung in time. If just a
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 9, 2005
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                      Off the top of my head ... I'd say that'd be doable from 100yds ...
                      Maybe farther ... Especially given adequate sightung in time.

                      If just a walk-up-here-and-shoot ... Then perhaps 70 or 80

                      Siegfried - who shoots a 145# gladius prod - and who after a few
                      warmup rounds at pennsic, is grouping that tight on the clout - though
                      usually on the guys feet


                      On 10/7/05, John edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                      > I am considering running a crossbow only competition next year,
                      > possibly at AnTir's 40YC.. I do not want to put the furthest target
                      > too far from the shooting line. But, would like to stretch the ability
                      > of the shooters a bit. So, I would like to hear from as many crossbow
                      > shooters as possible as to what the maximum range is that they can
                      > shoot accurately. For example keeping all the bolts on a 60 cm face.
                      > If you could also give the poundage and type of prod for your crossbow,
                      > or any related other information, it would be most helpful.
                      >
                      > Another part of the competition may include a period crossbow face
                      > target, which is being researched, that will be most interesting to
                      > shoot. It includes negative as well as positive points, as well as the
                      > chance to lose a turn in shooting if you miss the center by too much.
                      > No timed ends. Just shooting as accurately as possible, which is a
                      > major quality of a crossbow.
                      >
                      > Thank you for any help you can give.
                      >
                      > Jon
                      >
                      >
                      > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West, Mists, Esfenn
                      > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
                      > cunning of mind.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                      > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                      > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                      --
                      _________________________________________________________________________
                      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                    • Lord Cain Saethydd
                      Sir Jon, One shoot I have always wanted to do, was the one with the Phoenix (or similar large bird) as a target. The bird was made up of pieces joined
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 14, 2005
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                        Sir Jon,

                        One shoot I have always wanted to do, was the one with the Phoenix
                        (or similar large bird) as a target. The bird was made up of pieces
                        joined together, yet designed to come 'off' with a solid strike from a
                        crossbow. Hopefully designed so only one or two pieces could be shot
                        off at a time. (--- thought,,, try placing the outer feathers behind
                        the inner ones, so the support the inner rows. This would make it
                        tougher to shoot off large chunks---) Marked on the back of each piece
                        was the title of a prize. Often, the Head or Heart, both being well
                        protected, and unable to come off untill most of the other pieces were
                        gone, had the grand prize marked on the back of it. These shoots were
                        generaly fundraisers, as I recall. (Germanic in origin?) With each
                        shot requiring a set amount of currency, gradualy increasing as the
                        feathers were nocked off, thusly coordinating with the better prizes.

                        This was traditionaly a shoot for only crossbows, often with draw
                        weight limits. Sometimes crossbows were provided for those without,
                        and to help even the field. Blunted bolts work well. Oh, and number
                        the pieces, with a diagram of they they go, to aid in getting the
                        prizes to the correct shooter. (numbers could be used exclusive of
                        prize titles)

                        Now, I read this, like, 10 years ago, in 'The Grey Goose Wing', I
                        think, as well as a few others.

                        I did a "Poppin' Jay" shoot once. It was very popular, and I had fun
                        hosting it. If you were to do this, I would Heartily recommend that
                        the crossbows and bolts be provided, and not allow the shooters to use
                        thier own. As a high powered crossbow can get a blunted flu-flu bolt
                        to go a bit farther than you may desire. For safety, only allow a
                        narrow shooting range, say, 60 degree arc. And don't forget to mark 2
                        distances from the pole. One minimum range, and one max range. Too
                        close, and the bolts may come back into the shooters, too far, and the
                        bolts may leave the designated area, even with flu-flus.

                        Again, this was traditionaly a crossbow shoot, and is still done in a
                        few towns in Europe. It was not uncommon for this to be a fundraiser,
                        either. But, for those towns that were required to maintain troops
                        skilled in crossbow, the shoot required no outlay of moneys from the
                        shooters (again, as I recall). I also saw this the same books.

                        I hope to be able to attend the event.

                        Cain, Atenveldt

                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@p...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I am considering running a crossbow only competition next year,
                        > possibly at AnTir's 40YC.. I do not want to put the furthest target
                        > too far from the shooting line. But, would like to stretch the ability
                        > of the shooters a bit. So, I would like to hear from as many crossbow
                        > shooters as possible as to what the maximum range is that they can
                        > shoot accurately. For example keeping all the bolts on a 60 cm face.
                        > If you could also give the poundage and type of prod for your crossbow,
                        > or any related other information, it would be most helpful.
                        >
                        > Another part of the competition may include a period crossbow face
                        > target, which is being researched, that will be most interesting to
                        > shoot. It includes negative as well as positive points, as well as the
                        > chance to lose a turn in shooting if you miss the center by too much.
                        > No timed ends. Just shooting as accurately as possible, which is a
                        > major quality of a crossbow.
                        >
                        > Thank you for any help you can give.
                        >
                        > Jon
                        >
                        >
                        > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West, Mists, Esfenn
                        > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
                        > cunning of mind.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Carolus von Eulenhorst
                        Yes, the first is known as the Dresden Bird and used the German Eagle as the target. I have been looking into this. The popinjay is a fun shoot and one we
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 15, 2005
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                          Yes, the first is known as the "Dresden Bird" and used the German
                          Eagle as the target. I have been looking into this. The popinjay is
                          a fun shoot and one we have done at GWW in the past. we hope to do
                          it again. As we have a 5 acre range available to us with virtually
                          unlimited downrange, safety is not a problem.

                          Carolus

                          At 11:28 PM 10/14/2005, you wrote:


                          > Sir Jon,
                          >
                          > One shoot I have always wanted to do, was the one with the Phoenix
                          >(or similar large bird) as a target. The bird was made up of pieces
                          >joined together, yet designed to come 'off' with a solid strike from a
                          >crossbow. Hopefully designed so only one or two pieces could be shot
                          >off at a time. (--- thought,,, try placing the outer feathers behind
                          >the inner ones, so the support the inner rows. This would make it
                          >tougher to shoot off large chunks---) Marked on the back of each piece
                          >was the title of a prize. Often, the Head or Heart, both being well
                          >protected, and unable to come off untill most of the other pieces were
                          >gone, had the grand prize marked on the back of it. These shoots were
                          >generaly fundraisers, as I recall. (Germanic in origin?) With each
                          >shot requiring a set amount of currency, gradualy increasing as the
                          >feathers were nocked off, thusly coordinating with the better prizes.
                          >
                          > This was traditionaly a shoot for only crossbows, often with draw
                          >weight limits. Sometimes crossbows were provided for those without,
                          >and to help even the field. Blunted bolts work well. Oh, and number
                          >the pieces, with a diagram of they they go, to aid in getting the
                          >prizes to the correct shooter. (numbers could be used exclusive of
                          >prize titles)
                          >
                          > Now, I read this, like, 10 years ago, in 'The Grey Goose Wing', I
                          >think, as well as a few others.
                          >
                          > I did a "Poppin' Jay" shoot once. It was very popular, and I had fun
                          >hosting it. If you were to do this, I would Heartily recommend that
                          >the crossbows and bolts be provided, and not allow the shooters to use
                          >thier own. As a high powered crossbow can get a blunted flu-flu bolt
                          >to go a bit farther than you may desire. For safety, only allow a
                          >narrow shooting range, say, 60 degree arc. And don't forget to mark 2
                          > distances from the pole. One minimum range, and one max range. Too
                          >close, and the bolts may come back into the shooters, too far, and the
                          >bolts may leave the designated area, even with flu-flus.
                          >
                          > Again, this was traditionaly a crossbow shoot, and is still done in a
                          >few towns in Europe. It was not uncommon for this to be a fundraiser,
                          >either. But, for those towns that were required to maintain troops
                          >skilled in crossbow, the shoot required no outlay of moneys from the
                          >shooters (again, as I recall). I also saw this the same books.
                          >
                          > I hope to be able to attend the event.
                          >
                          > Cain, Atenveldt
                          >
                          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@p...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I am considering running a crossbow only competition next year,
                          > > possibly at AnTir's 40YC.. I do not want to put the furthest target
                          > > too far from the shooting line. But, would like to stretch the ability
                          > > of the shooters a bit. So, I would like to hear from as many crossbow
                          > > shooters as possible as to what the maximum range is that they can
                          > > shoot accurately. For example keeping all the bolts on a 60 cm face.
                          > > If you could also give the poundage and type of prod for your crossbow,
                          > > or any related other information, it would be most helpful.
                          > >
                          > > Another part of the competition may include a period crossbow face
                          > > target, which is being researched, that will be most interesting to
                          > > shoot. It includes negative as well as positive points, as well as the
                          > > chance to lose a turn in shooting if you miss the center by too much.
                          > > No timed ends. Just shooting as accurately as possible, which is a
                          > > major quality of a crossbow.
                          > >
                          > > Thank you for any help you can give.
                          > >
                          > > Jon
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West, Mists, Esfenn
                          > > An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
                          > > cunning of mind.
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • John edgerton
                          Lord Cain When you did your Poppin Jay shoot how did construct the pole and how high was it? What I am working on for a crossbow shoot is based on some
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 16, 2005
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                            Lord Cain

                            When you did your Poppin Jay shoot how did construct the pole and how
                            high was it?

                            What I am working on for a crossbow shoot is based on some medieval
                            Italian crossbow
                            competitions. One is rather like a dart board with the center having
                            positive points and the outer areas having negative points. Another is
                            one that some of you may have seen photos of from most current Italian
                            medieval style crossbow competitions. It has an approximately six
                            inch scoring area and the most center bolt is the winner. There will
                            be no timed ends. The crossbow is a precision weapon not a rapid fire
                            one. This will remove the advantage the lighter draw and faster to
                            cock, sca crossbows have over the heavier crossbows when there is a
                            timed end. Front or rear sights will not be allowed. And resting the
                            crossbow directly upon a support, such as the Italian shooting benches
                            will be allowed. And if the range allows, there will be a longer range
                            shoot at 80 or more yards.

                            My thanks to those of you that posted information on the accurate range
                            of your crossbows.

                            I am waiting for the translations of the Italian rules before I get
                            into detail on the rules for the 40YC competition.

                            Plan ahead and closely match a set of bolts and practice really tight
                            groups. :-)

                            Jon

                            On Friday, October 14, 2005, at 11:28 PM, Lord Cain Saethydd wrote:

                            >
                            > Sir Jon,
                            >
                            > One shoot I have always wanted to do, was the one with the Phoenix
                            > (or similar large bird) as a target. The bird was made up of pieces
                            > joined together, yet designed to come 'off' with a solid strike from a
                            > crossbow. Hopefully designed so only one or two pieces could be shot
                            > off at a time. (--- thought,,, try placing the outer feathers behind
                            > the inner ones, so the support the inner rows. This would make it
                            > tougher to shoot off large chunks---) Marked on the back of each piece
                            > was the title of a prize. Often, the Head or Heart, both being well
                            > protected, and unable to come off untill most of the other pieces were
                            > gone, had the grand prize marked on the back of it. These shoots were
                            > generaly fundraisers, as I recall. (Germanic in origin?) With each
                            > shot requiring a set amount of currency, gradualy increasing as the
                            > feathers were nocked off, thusly coordinating with the better prizes.
                            >
                            > This was traditionaly a shoot for only crossbows, often with draw
                            > weight limits. Sometimes crossbows were provided for those without,
                            > and to help even the field. Blunted bolts work well. Oh, and number
                            > the pieces, with a diagram of they they go, to aid in getting the
                            > prizes to the correct shooter. (numbers could be used exclusive of
                            > prize titles)
                            >
                            > Now, I read this, like, 10 years ago, in 'The Grey Goose Wing', I
                            > think, as well as a few others.
                            >
                            > I did a "Poppin' Jay" shoot once. It was very popular, and I had fun
                            > hosting it. If you were to do this, I would Heartily recommend that
                            > the crossbows and bolts be provided, and not allow the shooters to use
                            > thier own. As a high powered crossbow can get a blunted flu-flu bolt
                            > to go a bit farther than you may desire. For safety, only allow a
                            > narrow shooting range, say, 60 degree arc. And don't forget to mark 2
                            > distances from the pole. One minimum range, and one max range. Too
                            > close, and the bolts may come back into the shooters, too far, and the
                            > bolts may leave the designated area, even with flu-flus.
                            >
                            > Again, this was traditionaly a crossbow shoot, and is still done in a
                            > few towns in Europe. It was not uncommon for this to be a fundraiser,
                            > either. But, for those towns that were required to maintain troops
                            > skilled in crossbow, the shoot required no outlay of moneys from the
                            > shooters (again, as I recall). I also saw this the same books.
                            >
                            > I hope to be able to attend the event.
                            >
                            > Cain, Atenveldt
                            >
                            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@p...>
                            > wrote:
                            >>
                            >> I am considering running a crossbow only competition next year,
                            >> possibly at AnTir's 40YC.. I do not want to put the furthest target
                            >> too far from the shooting line. But, would like to stretch the
                            >> ability
                            >> of the shooters a bit. So, I would like to hear from as many crossbow
                            >> shooters as possible as to what the maximum range is that they can
                            >> shoot accurately. For example keeping all the bolts on a 60 cm face.
                            >> If you could also give the poundage and type of prod for your
                            >> crossbow,
                            >> or any related other information, it would be most helpful.
                            >>
                            >> Another part of the competition may include a period crossbow face
                            >> target, which is being researched, that will be most interesting to
                            >> shoot. It includes negative as well as positive points, as well as
                            >> the
                            >> chance to lose a turn in shooting if you miss the center by too much.
                            >> No timed ends. Just shooting as accurately as possible, which is a
                            >> major quality of a crossbow.
                            >>
                            >> Thank you for any help you can give.
                            >>
                            >> Jon
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, O.L., O.P., West, Mists, Esfenn
                            >> An Archer must be: Keen of eye, steady of hand, fleet of foot and
                            >> cunning of mind.
                          • John edgerton
                            I saw, briefly a while back, a book on the history of targets. It had many pictures of early targets. However, it seemed to be mostly gun targets. Has
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 16, 2005
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                              I saw, briefly a while back, a book on the history of targets. It had
                              many pictures of early targets. However, it seemed to be mostly gun
                              targets. Has anyone a copy of this book or know of it? If so, I would
                              like to know if it covers much of archery targets, particularly
                              crossbow targets. Also, what is the name of the book?

                              Thanks for any help you can give.

                              Jon
                            • Mike O'Toole
                              ... If it is Braun s History of Targets of which you speak them you remember correctly, it is mostly gun targets though if I remember correctly there was some
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 16, 2005
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                                John edgerton wrote:
                                > I saw, briefly a while back, a book on the history of targets. It had
                                > many pictures of early targets. However, it seemed to be mostly gun
                                > targets. Has anyone a copy of this book or know of it? If so, I would
                                > like to know if it covers much of archery targets, particularly
                                > crossbow targets. Also, what is the name of the book?
                                >
                                > Thanks for any help you can give.
                                >
                                > Jon

                                If it is Braun's History of Targets of which you speak them you remember
                                correctly, it is mostly gun targets though if I remember correctly there
                                was some crossover with late period crossbow targets.

                                I have a copy of it on my shelf. Ask away.

                                Michael O'Byrne
                              • John edgerton
                                ... Many thanks Jon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 17, 2005
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                                  > It is the crossbow targets that I am interested in. About how many
                                  > examples of them are there? I am wondering if it is worth buying the
                                  > book. Could you generally describe some of the crossbow targets?

                                  Many thanks

                                  Jon



                                  On Sunday, October 16, 2005, at 10:32 PM, Mike O'Toole wrote:
                                  > If it is Braun's History of Targets of which you speak them you
                                  > remember
                                  > correctly, it is mostly gun targets though if I remember correctly
                                  > there
                                  > was some crossover with late period crossbow targets.
                                  >
                                  > I have a copy of it on my shelf. Ask away.
                                  >
                                  > Michael O'Byrne


                                  > John edgerton wrote:
                                  >> I saw, briefly a while back, a book on the history of targets. It had
                                  >> many pictures of early targets. However, it seemed to be mostly gun
                                  >> targets. Has anyone a copy of this book or know of it? If so, I
                                  >> would
                                  >> like to know if it covers much of archery targets, particularly
                                  >> crossbow targets. Also, what is the name of the book?
                                  >>
                                  >> Thanks for any help you can give.
                                  >>
                                  >> Jon


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • John edgerton
                                  Are you sure of the title and author? I could not find them on Amazon. Thanks Jon
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 17, 2005
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                                    Are you sure of the title and author? I could not find them on Amazon.

                                    Thanks

                                    Jon
                                    On Sunday, October 16, 2005, at 10:32 PM, Mike O'Toole wrote:
                                    >
                                    > If it is Braun's History of Targets of which you speak them you
                                    > remember
                                    > correctly, it is mostly gun targets though if I remember correctly
                                    > there
                                    > was some crossover with late period crossbow targets.
                                    >
                                    > I have a copy of it on my shelf. Ask away.
                                    >
                                    > Michael O'Byrne
                                  • mike_otoole_2001
                                    Sorry about that, I misremembered. Correct info is: Braun, Anne. Historical Targets; Royden Publishing 1983 My personal favourite book search engine is
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 18, 2005
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                                      Sorry about that, I misremembered. Correct info is:

                                      Braun, Anne.
                                      Historical Targets; Royden Publishing 1983

                                      My personal favourite book search engine is Abebooks:

                                      http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bx=off&sts=t&ds=30&bi=0&an=Braun&tn=Historical+Targets&sortby=2

                                      usually better prices than amazon and booksellers from around the world.

                                      Happy hunting,

                                      Mike O'Toole

                                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@p...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Are you sure of the title and author? I could not find them on
                                      Amazon.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks
                                      >
                                      > Jon
                                      > On Sunday, October 16, 2005, at 10:32 PM, Mike O'Toole wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > If it is Braun's History of Targets of which you speak them you
                                      > > remember
                                      > > correctly, it is mostly gun targets though if I remember correctly
                                      > > there
                                      > > was some crossover with late period crossbow targets.
                                      > >
                                      > > I have a copy of it on my shelf. Ask away.
                                      > >
                                      > > Michael O'Byrne
                                      >
                                    • John edgerton
                                      Great. I found it. Thanks Jon
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 18, 2005
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                                        Great. I found it.

                                        Thanks

                                        Jon
                                        On Tuesday, October 18, 2005, at 11:23 AM, mike_otoole_2001 wrote:

                                        > Sorry about that, I misremembered. Correct info is:
                                        >
                                        > Braun, Anne.
                                        > Historical Targets; Royden Publishing 1983
                                        >
                                        > My personal favourite book search engine is Abebooks:
                                        >
                                        > http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/
                                        > SearchResults?bx=off&sts=t&ds=30&bi=0&an=Braun&tn=Historical+Targets&so
                                        > rtby=2
                                        >
                                        > usually better prices than amazon and booksellers from around the
                                        > world.
                                        >
                                        > Happy hunting,
                                        >
                                        > Mike O'Toole
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