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Re: [SCA-Archery] The Infernal Machine

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  • Lord Caedmon Wilson
    Talk all you want, longbow boy...but I would like to see your handbow throw a solid iron bolt any further than 10 feet. I mean, look at the poundage! 250lb to
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 21, 2005
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      Talk all you want, longbow boy...but I would like to see your handbow
      throw a solid iron bolt any further than 10 feet.

      I mean, look at the poundage! 250lb to 1000lb. Surely BIG NUMBERS
      count for something?!

      --
      Lord Caedmon Wilson

      Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
      Crossbow Archery Champion, Barony Flaming Gryphon
      Rapier Champion, South Oaken Region
    • J. Hughes
      Lets see, the Battle of Arsouf, the Battle of Joffa, the Battle of Lincoln (the one with Marshal), and all of the naval battles of the Sicilian Vespers.
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 21, 2005
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        Lets see, the Battle of Arsouf, the Battle of Joffa,
        the Battle of Lincoln (the one with Marshal), and all
        of the naval battles of the Sicilian Vespers. Counter
        question: What great siege was it that the longbow
        turned the tide and won the day??? Either on attack or
        defend?

        Charles O'Connor
        (who also shoots a long bow but noticed that it was
        impossible to shoot one from the battlements of
        Caernovan)

        --- Eric Francis <squirrelhenge@...> wrote:

        > <<Come to the Dark Side of the Force, my child...
        > Muahahahahaha...>>
        >
        > Ah, yes, Nigel -- you and your unnatural fascination
        > with crossbows.
        > Remind me now, what great battle was it that
        > crossbows turned the
        > tied and won the day? Agincourt, right? Ooops,
        > no.... Maybe
        > Poitiers? Crecy? Hmmm.... I'll keep thinking. I'm
        > sure it'll come to
        > me.
        >
        > Fondest regards,
        >
        > Peregrine Fairchylde
        > English longbowman



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      • Mike Giovaninni
        And, lest we forget, history tells us that it was the humble crossbow bolt that laid low one King Richard the Lionheart... Deth J. Hughes
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 21, 2005
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          And, lest we forget, history tells us that it was the humble crossbow bolt that laid low one King Richard the Lionheart...

          Deth


          "J. Hughes" <jphughessr@...> wrote:
          Lets see, the Battle of Arsouf, the Battle of Joffa,
          the Battle of Lincoln (the one with Marshal), and all
          of the naval battles of the Sicilian Vespers. Counter
          question: What great siege was it that the longbow
          turned the tide and won the day??? Either on attack or
          defend?

          Charles O'Connor
          (who also shoots a long bow but noticed that it was
          impossible to shoot one from the battlements of
          Caernovan)

          --- Eric Francis wrote:

          > <> Muahahahahaha...>>
          >
          > Ah, yes, Nigel -- you and your unnatural fascination
          > with crossbows.
          > Remind me now, what great battle was it that
          > crossbows turned the
          > tied and won the day? Agincourt, right? Ooops,
          > no.... Maybe
          > Poitiers? Crecy? Hmmm.... I'll keep thinking. I'm
          > sure it'll come to
          > me.
          >
          > Fondest regards,
          >
          > Peregrine Fairchylde
          > English longbowman



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        • J. Hughes
          Richard used a crossbow personally at the siege of Acre and the battle of Joffa. He was not the only king to use or die by a crossbow... Charles O Connor ...
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 21, 2005
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            Richard used a crossbow personally at the siege of
            Acre and the battle of Joffa. He was not the only king
            to use or die by a crossbow...

            Charles O'Connor

            --- Mike Giovaninni <mgio@...> wrote:

            > And, lest we forget, history tells us that it was
            > the humble crossbow bolt that laid low one King
            > Richard the Lionheart...
            >
            > Deth
            >
            >
            > "J. Hughes" <jphughessr@...> wrote:
            > Lets see, the Battle of Arsouf, the Battle of Joffa,
            > the Battle of Lincoln (the one with Marshal), and
            > all
            > of the naval battles of the Sicilian Vespers.
            > Counter
            > question: What great siege was it that the longbow
            > turned the tide and won the day??? Either on attack
            > or
            > defend?
            >
            > Charles O'Connor
            > (who also shoots a long bow but noticed that it was
            > impossible to shoot one from the battlements of
            > Caernovan)
            >
            > --- Eric Francis wrote:
            >
            > > <> Muahahahahaha...>>
            > >
            > > Ah, yes, Nigel -- you and your unnatural
            > fascination
            > > with crossbows.
            > > Remind me now, what great battle was it that
            > > crossbows turned the
            > > tied and won the day? Agincourt, right? Ooops,
            > > no.... Maybe
            > > Poitiers? Crecy? Hmmm.... I'll keep thinking. I'm
            > > sure it'll come to
            > > me.
            > >
            > > Fondest regards,
            > >
            > > Peregrine Fairchylde
            > > English longbowman
            >
            >
            >
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          • James Koch
            Peregrine, ... I believe the battles you are trying to remember were those fought during the conquest of Mexico. ... Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 21, 2005
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              Peregrine,
              >
              I believe the battles you are trying to remember were those fought during
              the conquest of Mexico.
              >
              Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
              >
              >
              >At 12:45 PM 7/21/2005, you wrote:
              ><<Come to the Dark Side of the Force, my child... Muahahahahaha...>>
              >
              >Ah, yes, Nigel -- you and your unnatural fascination with crossbows.
              >Remind me now, what great battle was it that crossbows turned the
              >tied and won the day? Agincourt, right? Ooops, no.... Maybe
              >Poitiers? Crecy? Hmmm.... I'll keep thinking. I'm sure it'll come to
              >me.
              >
              >Fondest regards,
              >
              >Peregrine Fairchylde
              >English longbowman
              >
              >
              >
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            • John Rossignol
              Darn! I thought cross-bowing was a cello technique. Oh well... John
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 21, 2005
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                Darn! I thought cross-bowing was a cello technique. Oh well...

                John


                J. Hughes wrote:

                >Lets see, the Battle of Arsouf, the Battle of Joffa,
                >the Battle of Lincoln (the one with Marshal), and all
                >of the naval battles of the Sicilian Vespers. Counter
                >question: What great siege was it that the longbow
                >turned the tide and won the day??? Either on attack or
                >defend?
                >
                >Charles O'Connor
                >(who also shoots a long bow but noticed that it was
                >impossible to shoot one from the battlements of
                >Caernovan)
                >
                >--- Eric Francis <squirrelhenge@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >><<Come to the Dark Side of the Force, my child...
                >>Muahahahahaha...>>
                >>
                >>Ah, yes, Nigel -- you and your unnatural fascination
                >>with crossbows.
                >>Remind me now, what great battle was it that
                >>crossbows turned the
                >>tied and won the day? Agincourt, right? Ooops,
                >>no.... Maybe
                >>Poitiers? Crecy? Hmmm.... I'll keep thinking. I'm
                >>sure it'll come to
                >>me.
                >>
                >>Fondest regards,
                >>
                >>Peregrine Fairchylde
                >>English longbowman
                >>
                >>
              • Lord Caedmon Wilson
                ... That is what we are talking about. cross-bowing versus long-bowing. Which technique do you prefer, John? -- Lord Caedmon Wilson Oaken Regional Youth
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 21, 2005
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                  On 7/21/05, John Rossignol <giguette@...> wrote:
                  > Darn! I thought cross-bowing was a cello technique. Oh well...

                  That is what we are talking about. cross-bowing versus long-bowing.
                  Which technique do you prefer, John?

                  --
                  Lord Caedmon Wilson

                  Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                  Crossbow Archery Champion, Barony Flaming Gryphon
                  Rapier Champion, South Oaken Region
                • John Rossignol
                  I currently prefer long-bowing, or horse-bowing, to be more precise. I don t have any prejudice against cross-bowing -- just haven t gotten around to it yet.
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 22, 2005
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                    I currently prefer long-bowing, or horse-bowing, to be more precise. I
                    don't have any prejudice against cross-bowing -- just haven't gotten
                    around to it yet. My neighbors probably do think of my cello as an
                    Infernal Machine, though, since I'm a real beginner on it.

                    John


                    Lord Caedmon Wilson wrote:

                    >On 7/21/05, John Rossignol <giguette@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >>Darn! I thought cross-bowing was a cello technique. Oh well...
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >That is what we are talking about. cross-bowing versus long-bowing.
                    >Which technique do you prefer, John?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • mark s graves
                    One thing the book the Great Warbow points out is the density of the wood of the trees has changed. The trees are growing faster in these times and bows
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 27, 2005
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                      One thing the book the Great Warbow points out is the density of the wood
                      of the trees has changed. The trees are growing faster in these times
                      and bows don't pull as much weight. I can't imagine pulling a 160 to 175
                      lbs. bow and I am a big, stout person. It is very interesting to
                      read......William
                    • Daniel Hawley
                      ... Sorry look at http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html A Longbow in this experiment pulling 68lbs threw a 2.5 oz arrow at 133.7 fps a
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 1, 2005
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                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Lord Caedmon Wilson
                        <caedmon.wilson@g...> wrote:
                        > Talk all you want, longbow boy...but I would like to see your handbow
                        > throw a solid iron bolt any further than 10 feet.
                        >
                        > I mean, look at the poundage! 250lb to 1000lb. Surely BIG NUMBERS
                        > count for something?!
                        >
                        > --
                        > Lord Caedmon Wilson
                        >
                        > Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                        > Crossbow Archery Champion, Barony Flaming Gryphon
                        > Rapier Champion, South Oaken Region

                        Sorry look at
                        http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
                        A Longbow in this experiment pulling 68lbs threw a 2.5 oz arrow at
                        133.7 fps a 740lb crossbows managed just 5fps more with a bolt half
                        the wieght. The crossbow is far less efficiant due to the length of
                        power stroke. As to which is the better weapon, it depends on what the
                        situation is, and that has already been discussed at length, but to
                        nail my colours to the mast, I'm a longbowman through and through.
                        I do intend to repeat this test for myself in the not too distant
                        future, using my 70lb longbow, and my friends 250lb crossbow if I can
                        get permission to use my local pro-shop's chronograph. I will also do
                        a range comparision if I can find a field long enough and get
                        permission to use it. If people are interested I will film the results
                        and post them here, and I promise, no cheating!

                        Daniel
                      • James Koch
                        Medieval crossbows for centuries had wooden prods which were quite long. These were more like a short hand bow mounted on a stock. I d like to build one to
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 1, 2005
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                          Medieval crossbows for centuries had wooden prods which were quite
                          long. These were more like a short hand bow mounted on a stock. I'd like
                          to build one to check its performance.
                          >
                          Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                          >
                          >
                          >At 02:56 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote:
                          >--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Lord Caedmon Wilson
                          ><caedmon.wilson@g...> wrote:
                          > > Talk all you want, longbow boy...but I would like to see your handbow
                          > > throw a solid iron bolt any further than 10 feet.
                          > >
                          > > I mean, look at the poundage! 250lb to 1000lb. Surely BIG NUMBERS
                          > > count for something?!
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > Lord Caedmon Wilson
                          > >
                          > > Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                          > > Crossbow Archery Champion, Barony Flaming Gryphon
                          > > Rapier Champion, South Oaken Region
                          >
                          >Sorry look at
                          >http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
                          > A Longbow in this experiment pulling 68lbs threw a 2.5 oz arrow at
                          >133.7 fps a 740lb crossbows managed just 5fps more with a bolt half
                          >the wieght. The crossbow is far less efficiant due to the length of
                          >power stroke. As to which is the better weapon, it depends on what the
                          >situation is, and that has already been discussed at length, but to
                          >nail my colours to the mast, I'm a longbowman through and through.
                          >I do intend to repeat this test for myself in the not too distant
                          >future, using my 70lb longbow, and my friends 250lb crossbow if I can
                          >get permission to use my local pro-shop's chronograph. I will also do
                          >a range comparision if I can find a field long enough and get
                          >permission to use it. If people are interested I will film the results
                          >and post them here, and I promise, no cheating!
                          >
                          >Daniel
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Carolus von Eulenhorst
                          Ay, yes. There s the rub. The bolt was half the weight. The crossbow comes into its own when it throws a 5 oz bolt at that same 138 fps. A crossbow is
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 1, 2005
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                            Ay, yes. There's the rub. The bolt was half the weight. The crossbow
                            comes into its own when it throws a 5 oz bolt at that same 138 fps. A
                            crossbow is limited by the modulus of elasticity of its prod. That is the
                            rate at which it returns to its resting position. However, it is capable
                            of propelling a much heavier projectile at that same speed. That makes its
                            effective energy delivery truly awesome and why it was so deadly at range
                            and against heavy armor. When you make these comparisons be sure to use
                            some very heavy projectiles (with correspondingly strong backstops) to get
                            a feel for the true effect of the weapon.
                            Carolus

                            At 11:56 AM 8/1/2005, you wrote:

                            >--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Lord Caedmon Wilson
                            ><caedmon.wilson@g...> wrote:
                            > > Talk all you want, longbow boy...but I would like to see your handbow
                            > > throw a solid iron bolt any further than 10 feet.
                            > >
                            > > I mean, look at the poundage! 250lb to 1000lb. Surely BIG NUMBERS
                            > > count for something?!
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > Lord Caedmon Wilson
                            > >
                            > > Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                            > > Crossbow Archery Champion, Barony Flaming Gryphon
                            > > Rapier Champion, South Oaken Region
                            >
                            >Sorry look at
                            >http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
                            > A Longbow in this experiment pulling 68lbs threw a 2.5 oz arrow at
                            >133.7 fps a 740lb crossbows managed just 5fps more with a bolt half
                            >the wieght. The crossbow is far less efficiant due to the length of
                            >power stroke. As to which is the better weapon, it depends on what the
                            >situation is, and that has already been discussed at length, but to
                            >nail my colours to the mast, I'm a longbowman through and through.
                            >I do intend to repeat this test for myself in the not too distant
                            >future, using my 70lb longbow, and my friends 250lb crossbow if I can
                            >get permission to use my local pro-shop's chronograph. I will also do
                            >a range comparision if I can find a field long enough and get
                            >permission to use it. If people are interested I will film the results
                            >and post them here, and I promise, no cheating!
                            >
                            >Daniel
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Gary Henderson
                            From what I have read (can t remember what source off hand but I believe it was the medieval archer by Bradbury) That originally the crossbow prods were wood
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                              From what I have read (can't remember what source off hand but I believe it
                              was the medieval archer by Bradbury) That originally the crossbow prods were
                              wood and did not begin to outshoot the longbow till steel prods were
                              introduced in the 14th or 15th century .
                              Gwyn
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "James Koch" <alchem@...>
                              > Medieval crossbows for centuries had wooden prods which were quite
                              > long. These were more like a short hand bow mounted on a stock. I'd like
                              > to build one to check its performance.
                              > >
                              > Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                              > >
                              > >
                            • J. Hughes
                              Actually the wood prods continued in use until the 16th century. With crossbows the poundage goes up with composite and steel as a trade off as the rate of
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                Actually the wood prods continued in use until the
                                16th century. With crossbows the poundage goes up with
                                composite and steel as a trade off as the rate of fire
                                goes down. In about the 11th century military use
                                favored the use of composite prods which out shot all
                                available handbows. The longbow as we know it with the
                                heavier poundage is only began to be developed and
                                issued with Edward I at the end of the 13th century.
                                By the time it is on the battlefields of the 100rd
                                Years War, the crossbow manufactures were working
                                toward the steel prod. But at Crecy the longbow was
                                present and the crossbowmen had composite prods but no
                                Pavases.

                                Charles O'Connor

                                --- Gary Henderson <cucymry@...> wrote:

                                > From what I have read (can't remember what source
                                > off hand but I believe it
                                > was the medieval archer by Bradbury) That originally
                                > the crossbow prods were
                                > wood and did not begin to outshoot the longbow till
                                > steel prods were
                                > introduced in the 14th or 15th century .
                                > Gwyn



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                              • J. Hughes
                                I would be very interested in how the reconstruction comes out. I know that wood prod crossbows were popular with Swedish peasants in the 16th century for
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                  I would be very interested in how the reconstruction
                                  comes out. I know that wood prod crossbows were
                                  popular with Swedish peasants in the 16th century for
                                  hunting and proved very effective against the Danish
                                  in the revolt.

                                  Charles O'Connor

                                  --- James Koch <alchem@...> wrote:

                                  > Medieval crossbows for centuries had wooden prods
                                  > which were quite
                                  > long. These were more like a short hand bow mounted
                                  > on a stock. I'd like
                                  > to build one to check its performance.
                                  > >
                                  > Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)




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                                • Michael Scherrer
                                  Jim, will you be at Pennsic ? It would be nice to get a little round table discussion with the crossbow builders one night!! Thomas
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                    Jim, will you be at Pennsic ?
                                    It would be nice to get a little round table discussion with the crossbow
                                    builders one night!!

                                    Thomas

                                    >From: James Koch <alchem@...>
                                    >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Infernal Machine
                                    >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:14:26 -0400
                                    >
                                    >Medieval crossbows for centuries had wooden prods which were quite
                                    >long. These were more like a short hand bow mounted on a stock. I'd like
                                    >to build one to check its performance.
                                    > >
                                    >Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >At 02:56 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote:
                                    > >--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Lord Caedmon Wilson
                                    > ><caedmon.wilson@g...> wrote:
                                    > > > Talk all you want, longbow boy...but I would like to see your handbow
                                    > > > throw a solid iron bolt any further than 10 feet.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I mean, look at the poundage! 250lb to 1000lb. Surely BIG NUMBERS
                                    > > > count for something?!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --
                                    > > > Lord Caedmon Wilson
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                                    > > > Crossbow Archery Champion, Barony Flaming Gryphon
                                    > > > Rapier Champion, South Oaken Region
                                    > >
                                    > >Sorry look at
                                    > >http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
                                    > > A Longbow in this experiment pulling 68lbs threw a 2.5 oz arrow at
                                    > >133.7 fps a 740lb crossbows managed just 5fps more with a bolt half
                                    > >the wieght. The crossbow is far less efficiant due to the length of
                                    > >power stroke. As to which is the better weapon, it depends on what the
                                    > >situation is, and that has already been discussed at length, but to
                                    > >nail my colours to the mast, I'm a longbowman through and through.
                                    > >I do intend to repeat this test for myself in the not too distant
                                    > >future, using my 70lb longbow, and my friends 250lb crossbow if I can
                                    > >get permission to use my local pro-shop's chronograph. I will also do
                                    > >a range comparision if I can find a field long enough and get
                                    > >permission to use it. If people are interested I will film the results
                                    > >and post them here, and I promise, no cheating!
                                    > >
                                    > >Daniel
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                  • Siegfried
                                    Well, for many years, traditionally, there was the Crossbow Conspiracy ... which was just that. A bunch of Crossbow folks getting together one evening to
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                      Well, for many years, traditionally, there was the Crossbow Conspiracy
                                      ... which was just that. A bunch of Crossbow folks getting together
                                      one evening to drink and talk Crossbow.

                                      However, it died off ever since the 'Iolo incident' kept Iolo from
                                      coming to Pennsic ... as he was one of the main people that helped
                                      organize it.

                                      It would be nice to see it return -- Though, it also had the problem
                                      of not being extremely well attended in the last few years.

                                      Siegfried


                                      On 8/2/05, Michael Scherrer <lordthomas@...> wrote:
                                      > Jim, will you be at Pennsic ?
                                      > It would be nice to get a little round table discussion with the crossbow
                                      > builders one night!!
                                      >
                                      > Thomas
                                      >
                                      > >From: James Koch <alchem@...>
                                      > >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Infernal Machine
                                      > >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:14:26 -0400
                                      > >
                                      > >Medieval crossbows for centuries had wooden prods which were quite
                                      > >long. These were more like a short hand bow mounted on a stock. I'd like
                                      > >to build one to check its performance.
                                      > > >
                                      > >Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >At 02:56 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote:
                                      > > >--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Lord Caedmon Wilson
                                      > > ><caedmon.wilson@g...> wrote:
                                      > > > > Talk all you want, longbow boy...but I would like to see your handbow
                                      > > > > throw a solid iron bolt any further than 10 feet.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I mean, look at the poundage! 250lb to 1000lb. Surely BIG NUMBERS
                                      > > > > count for something?!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --
                                      > > > > Lord Caedmon Wilson
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                                      > > > > Crossbow Archery Champion, Barony Flaming Gryphon
                                      > > > > Rapier Champion, South Oaken Region
                                      > > >
                                      > > >Sorry look at
                                      > > >http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
                                      > > > A Longbow in this experiment pulling 68lbs threw a 2.5 oz arrow at
                                      > > >133.7 fps a 740lb crossbows managed just 5fps more with a bolt half
                                      > > >the wieght. The crossbow is far less efficiant due to the length of
                                      > > >power stroke. As to which is the better weapon, it depends on what the
                                      > > >situation is, and that has already been discussed at length, but to
                                      > > >nail my colours to the mast, I'm a longbowman through and through.
                                      > > >I do intend to repeat this test for myself in the not too distant
                                      > > >future, using my 70lb longbow, and my friends 250lb crossbow if I can
                                      > > >get permission to use my local pro-shop's chronograph. I will also do
                                      > > >a range comparision if I can find a field long enough and get
                                      > > >permission to use it. If people are interested I will film the results
                                      > > >and post them here, and I promise, no cheating!
                                      > > >
                                      > > >Daniel
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
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                                      --
                                      _________________________________________________________________________
                                      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                                    • Bruce R. Gordon
                                      Greetings Yeah, there s a real nice 16th century crossbow with a massive wooden prod in the Cleveland Museum of Art, mounted with a very well-preserved
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                        Greetings
                                        Yeah, there's a real nice 16th century crossbow with a massive wooden prod in the Cleveland Museum of Art, mounted with a very well-preserved cranequin. Looks like sinew backing - German manufacture, I think. Charles has, I'm sure, seen it any number of times.

                                        Nigel

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Actually the wood prods continued in use until the
                                        > 16th century... (snip)
                                        --
                                        Three things never heard from the mouth of a Celt:
                                        "Do these colors match?"
                                        "Is this too much jewelry?"
                                        "Is that my drink?"

                                        http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Michael Scherrer
                                        I was at Pennsic XXX, which may have been the last real Conspiracy get together. And had heard about Iolo s little run in with Pennsic authorities, some time
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                          I was at Pennsic XXX, which may have been the last real Conspiracy get
                                          together.
                                          And had heard about Iolo's little run in with Pennsic authorities, some time
                                          later.

                                          So unless some one else would like to volunteer.
                                          How about Wednesday August 17th, around 7:30 PM, in the Calontir
                                          encampment.
                                          Ask for Thomas of Cologne.
                                          Bring a chair, maybe something to drink. And we can swap bad stories.
                                          It may not be big turn out.
                                          But how often will there be any number of crossbow builders at one event?

                                          Thomas

                                          >From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
                                          >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                          >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Infernal Machine
                                          >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:42:02 -0400
                                          >
                                          >Well, for many years, traditionally, there was the Crossbow Conspiracy
                                          >... which was just that. A bunch of Crossbow folks getting together
                                          >one evening to drink and talk Crossbow.
                                          >
                                          >However, it died off ever since the 'Iolo incident' kept Iolo from
                                          >coming to Pennsic ... as he was one of the main people that helped
                                          >organize it.
                                          >
                                          >It would be nice to see it return -- Though, it also had the problem
                                          >of not being extremely well attended in the last few years.
                                          >
                                          >Siegfried
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >On 8/2/05, Michael Scherrer <lordthomas@...> wrote:
                                          > > Jim, will you be at Pennsic ?
                                          > > It would be nice to get a little round table discussion with the
                                          >crossbow
                                          > > builders one night!!
                                          > >
                                          > > Thomas
                                        • Siegfried
                                          Hrmmm, Wednesday can work, but of course you are up against Midnight Madness (not that the madness happens all that much at night anyway nowadays. I d say that
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                            Hrmmm, Wednesday can work, but of course you are up against Midnight
                                            Madness (not that the madness happens all that much at night anyway
                                            nowadays.

                                            I'd say that Wednesday is probably the 2nd best night ... Thursday, to
                                            me, is the best

                                            Either way, I'll try to swing by ;)

                                            Oh, where IS Calontir anyway? (no no, I mean at Pennsic) -- Short of
                                            wandering around looking for the big purple tents.

                                            Siegfried

                                            On 8/2/05, Michael Scherrer <lordthomas@...> wrote:
                                            > I was at Pennsic XXX, which may have been the last real Conspiracy get
                                            > together.
                                            > And had heard about Iolo's little run in with Pennsic authorities, some time
                                            > later.
                                            >
                                            > So unless some one else would like to volunteer.
                                            > How about Wednesday August 17th, around 7:30 PM, in the Calontir
                                            > encampment.
                                            > Ask for Thomas of Cologne.
                                            > Bring a chair, maybe something to drink. And we can swap bad stories.
                                            > It may not be big turn out.
                                            > But how often will there be any number of crossbow builders at one event?
                                            >
                                            > Thomas
                                            >
                                            > >From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
                                            > >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Infernal Machine
                                            > >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:42:02 -0400
                                            > >
                                            > >Well, for many years, traditionally, there was the Crossbow Conspiracy
                                            > >... which was just that. A bunch of Crossbow folks getting together
                                            > >one evening to drink and talk Crossbow.
                                            > >
                                            > >However, it died off ever since the 'Iolo incident' kept Iolo from
                                            > >coming to Pennsic ... as he was one of the main people that helped
                                            > >organize it.
                                            > >
                                            > >It would be nice to see it return -- Though, it also had the problem
                                            > >of not being extremely well attended in the last few years.
                                            > >
                                            > >Siegfried
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >On 8/2/05, Michael Scherrer <lordthomas@...> wrote:
                                            > > > Jim, will you be at Pennsic ?
                                            > > > It would be nice to get a little round table discussion with the
                                            > >crossbow
                                            > > > builders one night!!
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Thomas
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                                            > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                                            > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                                            >
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                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            >
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                                            >


                                            --
                                            _________________________________________________________________________
                                            THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                            Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                            Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                            http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                                          • Michael Scherrer
                                            I have no problem with Thursday. Let us make it Thursday than. People building, interested in building or just want to talk crossbow. I have a wife that will
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                              I have no problem with Thursday. Let us make it Thursday than.
                                              People building, interested in building or just want to talk crossbow.

                                              I have a wife that will more then likely have me following her at the
                                              Midnight Madness.

                                              Directions???
                                              Coming from the battle field, go threw the new merchant area, past the rush
                                              tents, and
                                              the should put you in the right area. That is if they did change things.
                                              That should get you close enought to see the purple tent.
                                              Thomas

                                              >From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
                                              >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                              >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Infernal Machine
                                              >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:27:27 -0400
                                              >
                                              >Hrmmm, Wednesday can work, but of course you are up against Midnight
                                              >Madness (not that the madness happens all that much at night anyway
                                              >nowadays.
                                              >
                                              >I'd say that Wednesday is probably the 2nd best night ... Thursday, to
                                              >me, is the best
                                              >
                                              >Either way, I'll try to swing by ;)
                                              >
                                              >Oh, where IS Calontir anyway? (no no, I mean at Pennsic) -- Short of
                                              >wandering around looking for the big purple tents.
                                              >
                                              >Siegfried
                                              >
                                              >On 8/2/05, Michael Scherrer <lordthomas@...> wrote:
                                              > > I was at Pennsic XXX, which may have been the last real Conspiracy get
                                              > > together.
                                              > > And had heard about Iolo's little run in with Pennsic authorities, some
                                              >time
                                              > > later.
                                              > >
                                              > > So unless some one else would like to volunteer.
                                              > > How about Wednesday August 17th, around 7:30 PM, in the Calontir
                                              > > encampment.
                                              > > Ask for Thomas of Cologne.
                                              > > Bring a chair, maybe something to drink. And we can swap bad stories.
                                              > > It may not be big turn out.
                                              > > But how often will there be any number of crossbow builders at one
                                              >event?
                                              > >
                                              > > Thomas
                                              > >
                                              > > >From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
                                              > > >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Infernal Machine
                                              > > >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:42:02 -0400
                                              > > >
                                              > > >Well, for many years, traditionally, there was the Crossbow Conspiracy
                                              > > >... which was just that. A bunch of Crossbow folks getting together
                                              > > >one evening to drink and talk Crossbow.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >However, it died off ever since the 'Iolo incident' kept Iolo from
                                              > > >coming to Pennsic ... as he was one of the main people that helped
                                              > > >organize it.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >It would be nice to see it return -- Though, it also had the problem
                                              > > >of not being extremely well attended in the last few years.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >Siegfried
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >On 8/2/05, Michael Scherrer <lordthomas@...> wrote:
                                              > > > > Jim, will you be at Pennsic ?
                                              > > > > It would be nice to get a little round table discussion with the
                                              > > >crossbow
                                              > > > > builders one night!!
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Thomas
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                                              > > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                                              > > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                                              > >
                                              > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                              >
                                              >--
                                              >_________________________________________________________________________
                                              >THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                              >Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                              >Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                              >http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >---8<---------------------------------------------
                                              >Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                                              >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                                            • James Koch
                                              I gave up hosting the Crossbow Conspiracy several years ago and turned it over to Renee. You know, the cute blond with the Southern drawl and a crossbow under
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                                I gave up hosting the Crossbow Conspiracy several years ago and turned it
                                                over to Renee. You know, the cute blond with the Southern drawl and a
                                                crossbow under her arm. She may no longer be sponsoring it since getting
                                                word out became difficult once Iolo stopped attending. If someone knows
                                                how to contact her, it would be a courtesy to ask if she has any plans to
                                                host the get together this year.
                                                >
                                                Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >At 10:42 AM 8/2/2005, you wrote:
                                                >Well, for many years, traditionally, there was the Crossbow Conspiracy
                                                >... which was just that. A bunch of Crossbow folks getting together
                                                >one evening to drink and talk Crossbow.
                                                >
                                                >However, it died off ever since the 'Iolo incident' kept Iolo from
                                                >coming to Pennsic ... as he was one of the main people that helped
                                                >organize it.
                                                >
                                                >It would be nice to see it return -- Though, it also had the problem
                                                >of not being extremely well attended in the last few years.
                                                >
                                                >Siegfried
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >On 8/2/05, Michael Scherrer <lordthomas@...> wrote:
                                                > > Jim, will you be at Pennsic ?
                                                > > It would be nice to get a little round table discussion with the crossbow
                                                > > builders one night!!
                                                > >
                                                > > Thomas
                                                > >
                                                > > >From: James Koch <alchem@...>
                                                > > >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Infernal Machine
                                                > > >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:14:26 -0400
                                                > > >
                                                > > >Medieval crossbows for centuries had wooden prods which were quite
                                                > > >long. These were more like a short hand bow mounted on a stock. I'd like
                                                > > >to build one to check its performance.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >At 02:56 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote:
                                                > > > >--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Lord Caedmon Wilson
                                                > > > ><caedmon.wilson@g...> wrote:
                                                > > > > > Talk all you want, longbow boy...but I would like to see your handbow
                                                > > > > > throw a solid iron bolt any further than 10 feet.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > I mean, look at the poundage! 250lb to 1000lb. Surely BIG NUMBERS
                                                > > > > > count for something?!
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > --
                                                > > > > > Lord Caedmon Wilson
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                                                > > > > > Crossbow Archery Champion, Barony Flaming Gryphon
                                                > > > > > Rapier Champion, South Oaken Region
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >Sorry look at
                                                > > > >http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
                                                > > > > A Longbow in this experiment pulling 68lbs threw a 2.5 oz arrow at
                                                > > > >133.7 fps a 740lb crossbows managed just 5fps more with a bolt half
                                                > > > >the wieght. The crossbow is far less efficiant due to the length of
                                                > > > >power stroke. As to which is the better weapon, it depends on what the
                                                > > > >situation is, and that has already been discussed at length, but to
                                                > > > >nail my colours to the mast, I'm a longbowman through and through.
                                                > > > >I do intend to repeat this test for myself in the not too distant
                                                > > > >future, using my 70lb longbow, and my friends 250lb crossbow if I can
                                                > > > >get permission to use my local pro-shop's chronograph. I will also do
                                                > > > >a range comparision if I can find a field long enough and get
                                                > > > >permission to use it. If people are interested I will film the results
                                                > > > >and post them here, and I promise, no cheating!
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >Daniel
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >---8<---------------------------------------------
                                                > > > >Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                                                > > > >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > > > >
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                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
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                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >_____________________________________________________
                                                > > > >This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm
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                                                > > >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                                                > > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
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                                                >_________________________________________________________________________
                                                >THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                                >Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                                >Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                                >http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                >Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                                                >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                                              • Michael Scherrer
                                                Any one out there know how to contact her??? Plan A IF not , plan B. Thursday night 7:30 Calontir on the map as NO3 See Thomas of Cologne
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                                  Any one out there know how to contact her??? Plan A
                                                  IF not , plan B.
                                                  Thursday night 7:30 Calontir on the map as NO3
                                                  See Thomas of Cologne

                                                  >From: James Koch <alchem@...>
                                                  >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Infernal Machine
                                                  >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:14:35 -0400
                                                  >
                                                  >I gave up hosting the Crossbow Conspiracy several years ago and turned it
                                                  >over to Renee. You know, the cute blond with the Southern drawl and a
                                                  >crossbow under her arm. She may no longer be sponsoring it since getting
                                                  >word out became difficult once Iolo stopped attending. If someone knows
                                                  >how to contact her, it would be a courtesy to ask if she has any plans to
                                                  >host the get together this year.
                                                  > >
                                                  >Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                                                  > >
                                                • James Koch
                                                  I ll definitely be at Pennsic and hope to arrive on the first Wednesday. ... Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                                    I'll definitely be at Pennsic and hope to arrive on the first Wednesday.
                                                    >
                                                    Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >At 10:07 AM 8/2/2005, you wrote:
                                                    >Jim, will you be at Pennsic ?
                                                    >It would be nice to get a little round table discussion with the crossbow
                                                    >builders one night!!
                                                    >
                                                    >Thomas
                                                    >
                                                    > >From: James Koch <alchem@...>
                                                    > >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: The Infernal Machine
                                                    > >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:14:26 -0400
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Medieval crossbows for centuries had wooden prods which were quite
                                                    > >long. These were more like a short hand bow mounted on a stock. I'd like
                                                    > >to build one to check its performance.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >At 02:56 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote:
                                                    > > >--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Lord Caedmon Wilson
                                                    > > ><caedmon.wilson@g...> wrote:
                                                    > > > > Talk all you want, longbow boy...but I would like to see your handbow
                                                    > > > > throw a solid iron bolt any further than 10 feet.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > I mean, look at the poundage! 250lb to 1000lb. Surely BIG NUMBERS
                                                    > > > > count for something?!
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > --
                                                    > > > > Lord Caedmon Wilson
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Oaken Regional Youth Combat Marshal
                                                    > > > > Crossbow Archery Champion, Barony Flaming Gryphon
                                                    > > > > Rapier Champion, South Oaken Region
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >Sorry look at
                                                    > > >http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
                                                    > > > A Longbow in this experiment pulling 68lbs threw a 2.5 oz arrow at
                                                    > > >133.7 fps a 740lb crossbows managed just 5fps more with a bolt half
                                                    > > >the wieght. The crossbow is far less efficiant due to the length of
                                                    > > >power stroke. As to which is the better weapon, it depends on what the
                                                    > > >situation is, and that has already been discussed at length, but to
                                                    > > >nail my colours to the mast, I'm a longbowman through and through.
                                                    > > >I do intend to repeat this test for myself in the not too distant
                                                    > > >future, using my 70lb longbow, and my friends 250lb crossbow if I can
                                                    > > >get permission to use my local pro-shop's chronograph. I will also do
                                                    > > >a range comparision if I can find a field long enough and get
                                                    > > >permission to use it. If people are interested I will film the results
                                                    > > >and post them here, and I promise, no cheating!
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >Daniel
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
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