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Re: [SCA-Archery] Arc d

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  • Carolus von Eulenhorst
    Caid has awards for target archery (the Argent Arrow and the Chiron, AoA and GoA respectively) and any combat archery recognition has to go through the heavies
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 27, 2005
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      Caid has awards for target archery (the Argent Arrow and the Chiron, AoA
      and GoA respectively) and any combat archery recognition has to go through
      the heavies award system. No such joint award here. By the terms posted
      we would not be able to join at this time.
      Carolus
      At 11:41 AM 3/27/2005, you wrote:


      >Greetings
      > Alright, my mistake. But inasmuch as it is being commonly referred
      > to as the "White Bracer treaty", and, if I am correct, members are
      > displaying their membership by means of a white bracer, then there will
      > be a natural tendency on the part of sundry folk to regard the white
      > bracer as belonging to the order. Perhaps someone from An Tir could
      > clarify the status of white bracers as to regalia - are they protected
      > under sumptuary patent or not?
      >
      > As for standards, your comment below illuminates some of the
      > inherent shoal waters of interkingdom policies - by your statement you
      > automatically exclude the Middle Kingdom even before the Midrealm Curia
      > has an opportunity to pronounce upon it, inasmuch as here, combat archers
      > are heavies only, and regarded purely as a weapons specialization of
      > rattan fighters. Any awards they might receive or Orders they might join
      > would be the rattan ones, not the Dragon's Barb (AoA for target
      > archery/thrown weapons only or the Greenwood Company (GoA for target
      > archery/thrown weapons only). I wonder what the arrangements vis-a-vis
      > Target vs Combat archery are in other kingdoms?
      >
      >Nigel
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > John edgerton wrote:
      > >
      > > >I do not believe that the treaty even mentions a white bracer. White
      > > >bracers were given by Ansteorra to Trimaris at GW. And Antir has been
      > > >using them for years. Even I have been wearing one with the badges of
      > > >the RCA and RCY on it.
      > > >
      > > >Jon
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > You are correct. The treaty does not mention the white bracer, each
      > > kingdom order could choose insignia as they see fit. White bracers may
      > > be protected in An Tir or Ansteorra but that doesn't mean they are
      > > protected insignia anywhere else.
      > >
      > > Also while the treaty doesn't mention the specific qualifications for
      > > membership into the order and it doesn't say that the order should carry
      > > a GoA, I think it is highly unlikely that Trimaris and Ansteorra would
      > > enter into the Arc d'Or treaty with another kingdom that intended to
      > > only use the order for Target Archery (or only Combat Archery) and who
      > > only intended it to carry an AoA. The precedence of the order is
      > > considered equal by all who sign it.
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > >
      > > --
      > > HL Eadric Anstapa
      > > DSEM CA
      > > /eadric@.../ <mailto:eadric@...>
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >--
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      > "Do these colors match?"
      > "Is this too much jewelry?"
      > "Is that my drink?"
      >
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    • John edgerton
      ... Only if the bracer has a bow - Or as a primary or overall charge. Otherwise it is just a white bracer. ... Misc deleted. Jon
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 27, 2005
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        On Sunday, March 27, 2005, at 11:41 AM, Bruce R. Gordon wrote:

        >
        > Greetings
        > Alright, my mistake. But inasmuch as it is being commonly
        > referred to as the "White Bracer treaty", and, if I am correct,
        > members are displaying their membership by means of a white bracer,
        > then there will be a natural tendency on the part of sundry folk to
        > regard the white bracer as belonging to the order.

        Only if the bracer has a bow - Or as a primary or overall charge.
        Otherwise it is just a white bracer.

        > Perhaps someone from An Tir could clarify the status of white bracers
        > as to regalia - are they protected under sumptuary patent or not?

        Misc deleted.

        Jon
      • Eadric Anstapa
        Folks, those aren t terms . Those are my personal feelings. Notice I said I think . When I was working with my counterparts in Trimaris it was recognized
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 27, 2005
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          Folks, those aren't "terms". Those are my personal feelings. Notice I
          said "I think". When I was working with my counterparts in Trimaris it
          was recognized that both our existing orders recognized both target and
          combat archers. That synergy was important important to us.

          As I said in an earlier post I find the separation of Target and Combat
          archery communities strange and in my kingdom I think it would be
          unhealthy for the archery community to separate them. It would be like
          separating the white scarf into two separate orders with one for those
          people who excelled in tournament combat and another for those who
          excelled at melee. Still I do recognize that they are separated in
          other kingdoms and for them that separation is perceived to work well
          and to be normal.

          If the Crowns of other Kingdoms ever contacts Trimaris and Ansteorra
          seeking to be a part of this it would all be worked out at that time.
          (or not).

          Regards,

          -EA

          Carolus von Eulenhorst wrote:

          >Caid has awards for target archery (the Argent Arrow and the Chiron, AoA
          >and GoA respectively) and any combat archery recognition has to go through
          >the heavies award system. No such joint award here. By the terms posted
          >we would not be able to join at this time.
          >Carolus
          >At 11:41 AM 3/27/2005, you wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >>Greetings
          >> Alright, my mistake. But inasmuch as it is being commonly referred
          >>to as the "White Bracer treaty", and, if I am correct, members are
          >>displaying their membership by means of a white bracer, then there will
          >>be a natural tendency on the part of sundry folk to regard the white
          >>bracer as belonging to the order. Perhaps someone from An Tir could
          >>clarify the status of white bracers as to regalia - are they protected
          >>under sumptuary patent or not?
          >>
          >> As for standards, your comment below illuminates some of the
          >>inherent shoal waters of interkingdom policies - by your statement you
          >>automatically exclude the Middle Kingdom even before the Midrealm Curia
          >>has an opportunity to pronounce upon it, inasmuch as here, combat archers
          >>are heavies only, and regarded purely as a weapons specialization of
          >>rattan fighters. Any awards they might receive or Orders they might join
          >>would be the rattan ones, not the Dragon's Barb (AoA for target
          >>archery/thrown weapons only or the Greenwood Company (GoA for target
          >>archery/thrown weapons only). I wonder what the arrangements vis-a-vis
          >>Target vs Combat archery are in other kingdoms?
          >>
          >>Nigel
          >>
          >>
          >>>
          >>>John edgerton wrote:
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>>I do not believe that the treaty even mentions a white bracer. White
          >>>>bracers were given by Ansteorra to Trimaris at GW. And Antir has been
          >>>>using them for years. Even I have been wearing one with the badges of
          >>>>the RCA and RCY on it.
          >>>>
          >>>>Jon
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>You are correct. The treaty does not mention the white bracer, each
          >>>kingdom order could choose insignia as they see fit. White bracers may
          >>>be protected in An Tir or Ansteorra but that doesn't mean they are
          >>>protected insignia anywhere else.
          >>>
          >>>Also while the treaty doesn't mention the specific qualifications for
          >>>membership into the order and it doesn't say that the order should carry
          >>>a GoA, I think it is highly unlikely that Trimaris and Ansteorra would
          >>>enter into the Arc d'Or treaty with another kingdom that intended to
          >>>only use the order for Target Archery (or only Combat Archery) and who
          >>>only intended it to carry an AoA. The precedence of the order is
          >>>considered equal by all who sign it.
          >>>
          >>>Regards,
          >>>
          >>>--
          >>>HL Eadric Anstapa
          >>>DSEM CA
          >>>/eadric@.../ <mailto:eadric@...>
          >>>
          >>>

          // <mailto:eadric@...>



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Eadric Anstapa
          ... Really? Who? I dont think any of the people actually affected on involved in the treaty have called it that. It is the Arc d Or treaty. We certainly
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 27, 2005
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            Bruce R. Gordon wrote:

            >Greetings
            > Alright, my mistake. But inasmuch as it is being commonly referred to as the "White Bracer treaty",
            >
            Really? Who? I dont think any of the people actually affected on
            involved in the treaty have called it that. It is the Arc d'Or treaty.
            We certainly recognize that the OGGS wears white bracers and are not
            members of the Arc d'Or. Trimaris has yet to adopt the white bracer.
            The treaty indicates that the commonality of badges from Kingdom to
            Kingdom for this order shall have "a bow Or", Not a white bracer.

            >and, if I am correct, members are displaying their membership by means of a white bracer, then there will be a natural tendency on the part of sundry folk to regard the white bracer as belonging to the order. Perhaps someone from An Tir could clarify the status of white bracers as to regalia - are they protected under sumptuary patent or not?
            >
            >
            >
            Yes we in Ansteorra display our membership by means of a white bracer.
            In Ansteorra if you wear a white bracer it will be assumed that you are
            a member of such an order. When I go to the Midrealm I dont expect that
            people will assume that I am a member of anything just because I wear a
            white bracer and I certainly dont assume that they will think that I am
            a member of the Greenwood Company.

            Likewise if you come here I dont expect that people will see you green
            hood and assume anything other than that you have a real spiffy hood. I
            almost always wear a hood, an more often than not I wear green. By
            virtue of that I am almost always wearing a green hood. When I was at
            Pennsic I wanted to honor the traditions of your realm and respect your
            order and therefore I made sure that I did not wear a green hood while I
            was at Pennsic lest I be mistaken for a member of you order. (even
            though my hoods dont. have any red/white adornment)

            > As for standards, your comment below illuminates some of the inherent shoal waters of interkingdom policies - by your statement you automatically exclude the Middle Kingdom even before the Midrealm Curia has an opportunity to pronounce upon it, inasmuch as here, combat archers are heavies only, and regarded purely as a weapons specialization of rattan fighters. Any awards they might receive or Orders they might join would be the rattan ones, not the Dragon's Barb (AoA for target archery/thrown weapons only or the Greenwood Company (GoA for target archery/thrown weapons only). I wonder what the arrangements vis-a-vis Target vs Combat archery are in other kingdoms?
            >
            >Nigel
            >
            >

            I dont think we ever dreamed that every kingdom would ever adopt this
            order. It is not right for everyone or everywhere. You already
            indicated that even without the Greenwood Company the Midrealm would
            likely never join us for the same reasons that they have never joined
            the White Scarf treaty. Still my Order here does recognize the
            Greenwood Company as a great and noble order and as brothers and sister
            archers who share many of the same goals and ideals that we do.
            However, if members of the Greenwood Company move to Ansteorra they wont
            automatically be counted as members of our order the way and Archos from
            Trimaris would be.

            Regards,

            --
            HL Eadric Anstapa
            DSEM CA
            /eadric@.../ <mailto:eadric@...>



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John edgerton
            ... I was thinking the better the understanding of the treaty, the more apt additional kingdoms would be to consider joining. The fewer negative
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 27, 2005
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              On Sunday, March 27, 2005, at 11:55 AM, Eadric Anstapa wrote:
              > Jon I think you are thinking way too much about this. So far there are
              > precisely two kingdoms that are signatory to this treaty and I think we
              > have a pretty clear understanding of what the treaty is for. If other
              > kingdoms ever express the desire to join the treaty then guidance can
              > be
              > given at that time. The Arc d'Or treaty is already WAY more detailed
              > than the White Scarf treaty. The White scarf treaty simply says:

              I was thinking the better the understanding of the treaty, the more apt
              additional kingdoms would be to consider joining. The fewer negative
              misconceptions that remain the better. When the archers of various
              kingdoms finally start discussing the Arc d'Or, they should have as
              much correct information as possible at the begging of such discussion.
              So I would hope the current members of the Arc d'Or will provide as
              much correct information as possible. And my thanks to you for already
              doing so.

              Jon
            • Eadric Anstapa
              ... Well, I hope there are zero negative misconceptions. The high archery of orders of Trimaris and Ansteorra have formally drawn themselves closer together by
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 27, 2005
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                John edgerton wrote:

                >I was thinking the better the understanding of the treaty, the more apt
                >additional kingdoms would be to consider joining. The fewer negative
                >misconceptions that remain the better.
                >
                >

                Well, I hope there are zero negative misconceptions.

                The high archery of orders of Trimaris and Ansteorra have formally drawn
                themselves closer together by adopting a common name for our orders, by
                recognizing each other as full equals, by pledging to grant within our
                kingdoms equal precedence to that of our own orders and indeed
                functional membership in our own orders. We hope that one day other
                kingdoms might see fit to join us in that common bond if they deem it
                fitting. What can be negative about that?

                Please dont ready anything else into it. The Arc d'Or has no plans to
                take over the world or to supplant any other archery orders and we honor
                and respect the traditions of the orders of all of the other sovereign
                kingdoms.

                Regards,

                --
                HL Eadric Anstapa
                DSEM CA
                /eadric@.../ <mailto:eadric@...>



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                Greetings, I think that this exchange is one of the reasons that I find this list so vatuable. What I have learned is that should I come across an archer from
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 27, 2005
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                  Greetings,
                  I think that this exchange is one of the reasons that I find this
                  list so vatuable. What I have learned is that should I come across an
                  archer from Trimaris or Ansteora who is wearing a white bracer, then I
                  can recognize that archer as having achieved companionship in an order
                  comparable to the East's Order of the Sagittarius or of the Middle's
                  Forester in the Greenwood Company. I will clearly make a mental note of
                  that and treat such gentles with appropriate respect. I think that once
                  we know what each Kingdom has for its archers then we can easily
                  understand the importance that it holds for the companions of each
                  order.
                  If the "treaty" has no specific guidelines for devices to
                  display and each Kingdom is free to design their own, I fail to see how
                  this will create a better understanding and recognition for archers
                  society-wide. We already have equal archery orders in most Kingdoms
                  that have their own recognizable badges and "vestments".
                  I appreciate the pride expressed by the companions of the Arc d'Or
                  and their desire to share with other Kingdoms. I just feel it is
                  unneccessary for those of us that are already companions of a comparable
                  order to change the name of our order(which we are also equally proud
                  of) to create what I feel would be an ineffective attempt at uniformity.
                  I would much rather respectfully wish you well and tell you that I look
                  forward to meeting you on the range where we can share archery tales and
                  chat about our archery tackle. You can show me your spiffy white bracer
                  and I can show you my nifty centaur medallion and we can both look for a
                  gentle wearing a green hood and have somebody take a picture....or
                  something like that.....it's all good.
                  -Geoffrei
                • John edgerton
                  On Sunday, March 27, 2005, at 08:04 PM, jrosswebb1@webtv.net wrote: misc deleted ... misc deleted Article the Fourth ~ We each mutually recognize that the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 27, 2005
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                    On Sunday, March 27, 2005, at 08:04 PM, jrosswebb1@... wrote:

                    misc deleted

                    > If the "treaty" has no specific guidelines for devices to
                    > display and each Kingdom is free to design their own, I fail to see how
                    > this will create a better understanding and recognition for archers
                    > society-wide. We already have equal archery orders in most Kingdoms
                    > that have their own recognizable badges and "vestments".
                    >

                    misc deleted

                    Article the Fourth ~
                    We each mutually recognize that the badge registration by each
                    signatory kingdom for this order will include the charge of "a bow
                    Or" as either a primary charge or as an overall charge, all other
                    badge components to be determined by each signatory kingdom.  We
                    each further mutually declare that members of this order are at any
                    time entitled to wear either the badge of this order of the kingdom
                    in which they were made members or the badge of the order of the
                    kingdom in which they currently reside.

                    Jon


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                    Greetings, East Kingdom s Order of the Sagittarrius has an emblem of a centaur drawing a bow (all in gold) on a field of blue. ....So, I guess we ve already
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 27, 2005
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                      Greetings,
                      East Kingdom's Order of the Sagittarrius has an emblem of a
                      centaur drawing a bow (all in gold) on a field of blue.
                      ....So, I guess "we've already got one".
                      but thank you.


                      .......haven't got the grail yet, but we're working on it. ;-)

                      -Geoffrei
                    • Bruce R. Gordon
                      Greetings This is something which is not likely to be enacted in the Midrealm anytime soon. We have had a GoA-level Order, the Greenwood Company, in place for
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 21, 2005
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                        Greetings
                        This is something which is not likely to be enacted in the Midrealm anytime soon. We have had a GoA-level Order, the Greenwood Company, in place for a number of years now and, although I don't speak for the Company as such, I would nevertheless be surprised if many members would be willing to exchange their green hoods for AoA bracers. Aside from which, the Midrealm does not sign onto to treatiers of this sort anyway, on constitutional grounds.

                        I would like to see some sort of Knowne Worlde-wide recognition for target archers established, but so far, I've not sdeen any suggestions likely to win universal, or even substantial, aproval as of yet.

                        Baron Nigel FitzMaurice, Midrealm AG
                        --
                        Three things never heard from the mouth of a Celt:
                        "Do these colors match?"
                        "Is this too much jewelry?"
                        "Is that my drink?"

                        http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Eadric Anstapa
                        ... FYI, the Arc d Or carries with it a GoA not an AoA. Regards, -- HL Eadric Anstapa CAOA DSEM CA eadric@scabrewer.com
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 21, 2005
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                          "Bruce R. Gordon" <obsidian@...> said:

                          > I would nevertheless be surprised if many members would be willing
                          > to exchange their green hoods for AoA bracers. Aside from which, the
                          > Midrealm does not sign onto to treatiers of this sort anyway, on
                          > constitutional grounds.
                          >

                          FYI, the Arc d'Or carries with it a GoA not an AoA.

                          Regards,

                          --
                          HL Eadric Anstapa CAOA
                          DSEM CA
                          eadric@...
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