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Re: [SCA-Archery] Digest Number 1878

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  • Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil
    ... Johann, I don t give a damn if you did put a smiley face after your statement. The statement stands by itself, and I don t care if you put a *smilely* on
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 22, 2005
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      >Message: 2
      > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:04:16 -0700 (MST)
      > From: Johann Friedrich yahoo@...>
      >Subject: Re: Estrella target archery?
      >
      >I don't know what the final outcome was, but I did get to shoot most of
      >the scenarios on Friday before the pansi-arsed marshells closed the field
      >because of a little water falling from the sky. =-) I can fully
      >understand them not wanting to be sitting out there in the rain, but I had
      >waxed my bow and arrows, like any good archer, and had fully expected to
      >shoot in the rain with the weather forecasts leading up to war.
      >
      >Despite the weather, it was a fun shoot! I just wish I had been able to
      >shoot the timed rounds. Unfortunatly, I never made it back out there on
      >Sunday for the champion shoots.
      >

      Johann, I don't give a damn if you did put a smiley face after your statement.
      The statement stands by itself, and I don't care if you put a *smilely* on it or
      not, it was ill stated.

      Being one of those "pansi-arsed marshalls" I can say it's too bad you didn't
      bring up the issue while we were all still there. I would give you information to
      set you straight.

      Since you obviously have not been in the position of responsibility, you do not
      know all of the issues that come to bear on making a decision like that. I sure
      didn't want to make it, but we had to...for several reasons of which I'm not
      going into here, the least of which is concern for your equipment.

      Anybody else can be as furious as they want to be, as someone who stepped into
      the position voluntarily, I'm tired of it. ....which is one of the reaons why I'm
      not KAG for my kingdom anymore. It is absolutely thankless.


      By the way, Artemisia and Outlands took the full point for the untimed scenarios.
      Caid and Atenveldt took the 1/2 point for the timed scenarios.

      The winner Sunday of the EWAC, was a gentle named Carl. I believe he scored a 261
      with a crossbow.

      Godwin
    • Dan Scheid
      Time to move on. He made an off color joke. You took offence. You both have had your say. Now before this turns into a flame war. Let s move on or take it to
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 22, 2005
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        Time to move on. He made an off color joke. You took offence. You both have
        had your say. Now before this turns into a flame war. Let's move on or take
        it to private e-mail
        Master Damales Redbeard O.L.
        /
        >Message: 2
        > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:04:16 -0700 (MST)
        > From: Johann Friedrich yahoo@...>
        >Subject: Re: Estrella target archery?
        >
        >I don't know what the final outcome was, but I did get to shoot most of
        >the scenarios on Friday before the pansi-arsed marshells closed the field
        >because of a little water falling from the sky. =-) I can fully
        >understand them not wanting to be sitting out there in the rain, but I had
        >waxed my bow and arrows, like any good archer, and had fully expected to
        >shoot in the rain with the weather forecasts leading up to war.
        >
        >Despite the weather, it was a fun shoot! I just wish I had been able to
        >shoot the timed rounds. Unfortunatly, I never made it back out there on
        >Sunday for the champion shoots.
        >

        Johann, I don't give a damn if you did put a smiley face after your
        statement.
        The statement stands by itself, and I don't care if you put a *smilely* on
        it or
        not, it was ill stated.

        Being one of those "pansi-arsed marshalls" I can say it's too bad you didn't
        bring up the issue while we were all still there. I would give you
        information to
        set you straight.

        Since you obviously have not been in the position of responsibility, you do
        not
        know all of the issues that come to bear on making a decision like that. I
        sure
        didn't want to make it, but we had to...for several reasons of which I'm not
        going into here, the least of which is concern for your equipment.

        Anybody else can be as furious as they want to be, as someone who stepped
        into
        the position voluntarily, I'm tired of it. ....which is one of the reaons
        why I'm
        not KAG for my kingdom anymore. It is absolutely thankless.


        By the way, Artemisia and Outlands took the full point for the untimed
        scenarios.
        Caid and Atenveldt took the 1/2 point for the timed scenarios.

        The winner Sunday of the EWAC, was a gentle named Carl. I believe he scored
        a 261
        with a crossbow.

        Godwin








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      • Johann Friedrich
        ... Yes it was, and I appologize for insulting you. ... Believe it or not, it s probably a good thing that I didn t bring it up at the time. I did yell a few
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 22, 2005
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          On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, Lord Godwin FitzGilbert de Strigoil wrote:

          > Johann, I don't give a damn if you did put a smiley face after your statement.
          > The statement stands by itself, and I don't care if you put a *smilely* on it or
          > not, it was ill stated.

          Yes it was, and I appologize for insulting you.

          > Being one of those "pansi-arsed marshalls" I can say it's too bad you didn't
          > bring up the issue while we were all still there. I would give you information to
          > set you straight.

          Believe it or not, it's probably a good thing that I didn't bring it up at
          the time. I did yell a few times from the line with no response, but my
          Lady wife asked me not to push it. I would much rather ask about it when
          I am a little calmer.

          > Since you obviously have not been in the position of responsibility, you do not
          > know all of the issues that come to bear on making a decision like that. I sure
          > didn't want to make it, but we had to...for several reasons of which I'm not
          > going into here, the least of which is concern for your equipment.

          Why do you assume that I've obviously never been in a position of
          responsibility? This statement is a little bit insulting, but I will take
          it with a grain of salt as you seem to have been seriously upset by my
          previous statement. I don't buy the arguement about concern for my
          equipment. If this was a concern, then the range marshals would have
          been inspecting equipment. I too was a little concerned since I hadn't
          waxed my bow in the past month, but was quite happy with the way the water
          was beading up and running off the bow.

          > Anybody else can be as furious as they want to be, as someone who stepped into
          > the position voluntarily, I'm tired of it. ....which is one of the reaons why I'm
          > not KAG for my kingdom anymore. It is absolutely thankless.

          I disagree with it being thankless, the problem is that people don't speak
          up when they are happy, only when they are upset. It seems to be human
          nature to only remember the bad parts.

          > By the way, Artemisia and Outlands took the full point for the untimed scenarios.
          > Caid and Atenveldt took the 1/2 point for the timed scenarios.

          This doesn't really make me feel any better personally, since I was never
          able to actually shoot the timed rounds, and I'm from Atenveldt. Who
          knows... perhaps I could have brought the score down low enough to hand
          the other 1/2 point over to Artemesia and Outlands. =-) (this is meant as
          an amusing insult on my own shooting abilities)

          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[The Realm of Darkness]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= O-
          Ken Bowley yahoo@...
          AKA: Lord Johann Friedrich http://www.trod.org
          -=-=-=-=[Per saltire sable and gules, in fess two rapiers Or]=-=-=-=-
        • i_griffen
          I don t buy the arguement about concern for my ... have ... hadn t ... the water ... Johann Hold, hold, the range is closed. the smoking lamp is lit. This is
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 22, 2005
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            I don't buy the arguement about concern for my
            > equipment. If this was a concern, then the range marshals would
            have
            > been inspecting equipment. I too was a little concerned since I
            hadn't
            > waxed my bow in the past month, but was quite happy with the way
            the water
            > was beading up and running off the bow.

            Johann

            Hold, hold, the range is closed. the smoking lamp is lit. This is a
            winded one.

            I was going to comment on the above issue off list after I had
            sometime to think and had a clear head to think. But, since this
            has been brought to a public forum I will make my comment here. I
            think you realize there are the Society Archery Marshal and several
            Kingdom Archery Marshals on this list. Several years ago I asked
            why there isn't an equipment on the Estrella War Range.I was told it
            was a libility issue meaning that if a marshal inspected a bow and
            it blew up the marshal can be held accountable. The same thing can
            be said for the arrows. During my tenure as being a marshal I have
            seen many types and ages of bows on the Range at Estrella War. I
            have been on the range when a bow has blown up. One was a bow that
            was about 30 years old the remains that was found, was inspected the
            only place that showed any signs of stress. The second was a bow
            that was 8 months old when it blew.

            It is my opinion the it is the Archers responsibility to insure
            their equipment is in good shape. And if the archer is not sure on
            how to properly inspect their equipment then they should contact a
            senior marshal or an Archer that has been shooting for several years
            to inspect their equipment. If I was asked I would inspect the bow
            and arrows.



            >
            > > Anybody else can be as furious as they want to be, as someone
            who stepped into
            > > the position voluntarily, I'm tired of it. ....which is one of
            the reaons why I'm
            > > not KAG for my kingdom anymore. It is absolutely thankless.
            >
            Being the Kingdom Archer General/Royal Archer is a thankless job.
            Why? It is up to you to try to get the archers in the kingdom to
            help design the art work for the War senerios, to get help to load
            and unload the truck for war. To set up the Range for war. What
            happens is that you are the one doing all of the work. You may have
            one or two maybe four people to help. It is always the same people.

            As for the repair of the equipment again it is up to you to do the
            work. Then again the is transporting the Kingdom Target stands to
            the outer edges of the Kingdom and this group doen't want to travel
            to the Kingdom storage shed to pick them up. It is your
            responsibility to get the equipment to them. I have seen Mistress
            Brenna haul Target stand to Blythe CA. for a Kingdom Archery
            Champion shoot.

            Then again What about the local groups that don't submit their
            reports (monthly archery report, doomsday report) in a timely
            manner. Or even submitting the IKAC score to the score keeper.

            Most of the time the only input you get from the archers is
            complaints.


            Ian Griffen

            > I disagree with it being thankless, the problem is that people
            don't speak
            > up when they are happy, only when they are upset. It seems to be
            human
            > nature to only remember the bad parts.
            >
          • Johann Friedrich
            ... Thank you for responding. This may actually be a helpfull discussion that could explain things to more than just myself. ... I totally understand this
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 22, 2005
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              On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, i_griffen wrote:

              >> I don't buy the arguement about concern for my equipment. If this was
              >> a concern, then the range marshals would have been inspecting
              >> equipment. I too was a little concerned since I hadn't waxed my bow in
              >> the past month, but was quite happy with the way the water was beading
              >> up and running off the bow.
              >
              >> Johann
              >
              > Hold, hold, the range is closed. the smoking lamp is lit. This is a
              > winded one.

              Thank you for responding. This may actually be a helpfull discussion that
              could explain things to more than just myself.

              > I was going to comment on the above issue off list after I had
              > sometime to think and had a clear head to think. But, since this
              > has been brought to a public forum I will make my comment here. I
              > think you realize there are the Society Archery Marshal and several
              > Kingdom Archery Marshals on this list. Several years ago I asked
              > why there isn't an equipment on the Estrella War Range.I was told it
              > was a libility issue meaning that if a marshal inspected a bow and
              > it blew up the marshal can be held accountable. The same thing can
              > be said for the arrows. During my tenure as being a marshal I have
              > seen many types and ages of bows on the Range at Estrella War. I
              > have been on the range when a bow has blown up. One was a bow that
              > was about 30 years old the remains that was found, was inspected the
              > only place that showed any signs of stress. The second was a bow
              > that was 8 months old when it blew.

              I totally understand this issue, and it explains a lot. After seeing
              equipment being inspected for hard suit and rapier, I was curious why it
              wasn't inspected for archery. I just assumed that it should be up to the
              archer to maintain their own equipment, but I have seen more than once on
              this list where the safety of equipment was referenced as a reason (albeit
              a minor one) for closing the range (I now know there were many other
              factors involved, and don't have with the range closure.) I did see one
              marshal inspect a bow for a youth during practice and inform the youth
              that he would allow him to shoot on the practice range, but wouldn't allow
              him to shoot in competition because he didn't like the way his string was
              attached to the bow. Since the youth only came out to shoot on the
              practice range, I didn't step in to question his statement at that time.
              (my quick inspection showed that the string was attached to the bottom
              nock with a bowyers knot instead of a loop with which the marshal was more
              comfortable)

              > It is my opinion the it is the Archers responsibility to insure
              > their equipment is in good shape. And if the archer is not sure on
              > how to properly inspect their equipment then they should contact a
              > senior marshal or an Archer that has been shooting for several years
              > to inspect their equipment. If I was asked I would inspect the bow
              > and arrows.

              This is how I expected it to be. Thank you for stateing this for me. As
              I have stated before, I plan on becoming a range marshal at some point in
              the near future, and I fully expect to be answering these types of
              questions myself in the future.

              -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[The Realm of Darkness]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= O-
              Ken Bowley yahoo@...
              AKA: Lord Johann Friedrich http://www.trod.org
              -=-=-=-=[Per saltire sable and gules, in fess two rapiers Or]=-=-=-=-
            • Bruce R. Gordon
              Greetings Speaking as one of those Kingdom Archer-Generals (I m one who has Pennsic to plan out every other year - my responsibilities differ from yours
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 22, 2005
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                Greetings
                Speaking as one of those Kingdom Archer-Generals (I'm one who has Pennsic to plan out every other year - my responsibilities differ from yours somewhat, Ian, and it sounds like you've got much greater staffing problems than I would ever tolerate, but I still understand entirely the stresses involved in planning up a major War and running a marshallate program simultaneously...), I gotta say something here.
                In the Midrealm, every bow (and a representative sample of arrows from every quiver) MUST be inspected before it is allowed anywhere near the range (whether at a local practice or at an interkingdom war). Ditto the East, ditto AEthelmearc (read: the three biggies at Pennsic). I will invite Gwylym (Society Archery Marshal) to correct me if I'm wrong, but inspection of equipment does not incur liability on the part of the inspecting marshal, or the MiC. Allowing a bow onto the line without having inspected it, and having that bow injure someone when it blows up, will most assuredly incur potential liability to everyone in the foodchain of command, right up through the Kingdom Earl Marshal and quite possibly the SAM as well.
                I would certainly agree that anyone owning archery tackle should inspect it regularly, and note any changes spotted in it's condition, but familiarity breeds... well, maybe not contempt, but the increased potential for passing over a problem area because "it's always been there like that". Part of the rationale for marshallate inspection procedures is to give the equipment the opportunity to be looked at by a fresh, unbiased eye.
                I regularly teach a class in how to inspect bows (with real-life examples of failed [often catastrophically] tackle) to MiCs, and anyone else who wants to hear me (because I encourage non-marshals to know how to look at their stuff as well). I will gladly hold wherever I can get to if I'm asked to bring it. I would strongly make the case to other Archer-Generals out there that holding such a class is one of the best ways of inculcating safety awareness among your populace, and improving the skillset of your marshals. But please don't let any of your populace walk out onto a range without having someone with training look over their equipage first - bows will blow (sometimes even after being inspected, because the flaw is hidden) and it behooves you and your archers therefore to make use of every opportunity you can to exercise precaution. To not do so is simply asking for trouble.

                Forester Nigel FitzMaurice, Middle Kingdom AG
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I don't buy the arguement about concern for my
                > > equipment. If this was a concern, then the range marshals would
                > have
                > > been inspecting equipment. I too was a little concerned since I
                > hadn't
                > > waxed my bow in the past month, but was quite happy with the way
                > the water
                > > was beading up and running off the bow.
                >
                > Johann
                >
                > Hold, hold, the range is closed. the smoking lamp is lit. This is a
                > winded one.
                >
                > I was going to comment on the above issue off list after I had
                > sometime to think and had a clear head to think. But, since this
                > has been brought to a public forum I will make my comment here. I
                > think you realize there are the Society Archery Marshal and several
                > Kingdom Archery Marshals on this list. Several years ago I asked
                > why there isn't an equipment on the Estrella War Range.I was told it
                > was a libility issue meaning that if a marshal inspected a bow and
                > it blew up the marshal can be held accountable. The same thing can
                > be said for the arrows. During my tenure as being a marshal I have
                > seen many types and ages of bows on the Range at Estrella War. I
                > have been on the range when a bow has blown up. One was a bow that
                > was about 30 years old the remains that was found, was inspected the
                > only place that showed any signs of stress. The second was a bow
                > that was 8 months old when it blew.
                >
                > It is my opinion the it is the Archers responsibility to insure
                > their equipment is in good shape. And if the archer is not sure on
                > how to properly inspect their equipment then they should contact a
                > senior marshal or an Archer that has been shooting for several years
                > to inspect their equipment. If I was asked I would inspect the bow
                > and arrows.
                >
                >
                >
                > >
                > > > Anybody else can be as furious as they want to be, as someone
                > who stepped into
                > > > the position voluntarily, I'm tired of it. ....which is one of
                > the reaons why I'm
                > > > not KAG for my kingdom anymore. It is absolutely thankless.
                > >
                > Being the Kingdom Archer General/Royal Archer is a thankless job.
                > Why? It is up to you to try to get the archers in the kingdom to
                > help design the art work for the War senerios, to get help to load
                > and unload the truck for war. To set up the Range for war. What
                > happens is that you are the one doing all of the work. You may have
                > one or two maybe four people to help. It is always the same people.
                >
                > As for the repair of the equipment again it is up to you to do the
                > work. Then again the is transporting the Kingdom Target stands to
                > the outer edges of the Kingdom and this group doen't want to travel
                > to the Kingdom storage shed to pick them up. It is your
                > responsibility to get the equipment to them. I have seen Mistress
                > Brenna haul Target stand to Blythe CA. for a Kingdom Archery
                > Champion shoot.
                >
                > Then again What about the local groups that don't submit their
                > reports (monthly archery report, doomsday report) in a timely
                > manner. Or even submitting the IKAC score to the score keeper.
                >
                > Most of the time the only input you get from the archers is
                > complaints.
                >
                >
                > Ian Griffen
                >
                > > I disagree with it being thankless, the problem is that people
                > don't speak
                > > up when they are happy, only when they are upset. It seems to be
                > human
                > > nature to only remember the bad parts.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Carolus von Eulenhorst
                I ve got to step in here also at this time, being another of those Kingdom officers. Caid calls for inspections of equipment to assure that it meets the rules
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 23, 2005
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                  I've got to step in here also at this time, being another of those Kingdom
                  officers. Caid calls for inspections of equipment to assure that it meets
                  the rules and that blatantly unsafe equipment is prevented fro entering the
                  field. We do NOT vouch for its safety. Our rules clearly state that the
                  archer is responsible for his own equipment and its safe condition. This
                  removes the liability from the marshalate if equipment unexpectedly fails.

                  As to the office being a thankless task, I have to disagree. It is
                  challenging and has its share of pitfalls. But I have a terrific staff of
                  marshals working for me (just look at the level of work put out by my
                  Estrella deputy , Fearghus, and the group of people he recruited) and my
                  archers are generally great to work with. Reports seldom arrive and
                  communication tends to be nearly non existent at times. I truly believe
                  Caid is blessed by some of the hardest working people in the world.

                  Carolus

                  At 09:36 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:


                  >Greetings
                  > Speaking as one of those Kingdom Archer-Generals (I'm one who has
                  > Pennsic to plan out every other year - my responsibilities differ from
                  > yours somewhat, Ian, and it sounds like you've got much greater staffing
                  > problems than I would ever tolerate, but I still understand entirely the
                  > stresses involved in planning up a major War and running a marshallate
                  > program simultaneously...), I gotta say something here.
                  > In the Midrealm, every bow (and a representative sample of arrows
                  > from every quiver) MUST be inspected before it is allowed anywhere near
                  > the range (whether at a local practice or at an interkingdom war). Ditto
                  > the East, ditto AEthelmearc (read: the three biggies at Pennsic). I will
                  > invite Gwylym (Society Archery Marshal) to correct me if I'm wrong, but
                  > inspection of equipment does not incur liability on the part of the
                  > inspecting marshal, or the MiC. Allowing a bow onto the line without
                  > having inspected it, and having that bow injure someone when it blows up,
                  > will most assuredly incur potential liability to everyone in the
                  > foodchain of command, right up through the Kingdom Earl Marshal and quite
                  > possibly the SAM as well.
                  > I would certainly agree that anyone owning archery tackle should
                  > inspect it regularly, and note any changes spotted in it's condition, but
                  > familiarity breeds... well, maybe not contempt, but the increased
                  > potential for passing over a problem area because "it's always been there
                  > like that". Part of the rationale for marshallate inspection procedures
                  > is to give the equipment the opportunity to be looked at by a fresh,
                  > unbiased eye.
                  > I regularly teach a class in how to inspect bows (with real-life
                  > examples of failed [often catastrophically] tackle) to MiCs, and anyone
                  > else who wants to hear me (because I encourage non-marshals to know how
                  > to look at their stuff as well). I will gladly hold wherever I can get to
                  > if I'm asked to bring it. I would strongly make the case to other
                  > Archer-Generals out there that holding such a class is one of the best
                  > ways of inculcating safety awareness among your populace, and improving
                  > the skillset of your marshals. But please don't let any of your populace
                  > walk out onto a range without having someone with training look over
                  > their equipage first - bows will blow (sometimes even after being
                  > inspected, because the flaw is hidden) and it behooves you and your
                  > archers therefore to make use of every opportunity you can to exercise
                  > precaution. To not do so is simply asking for trouble.
                  >
                  >Forester Nigel FitzMaurice, Middle Kingdom AG
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I don't buy the arguement about concern for my
                  > > > equipment. If this was a concern, then the range marshals would
                  > > have
                  > > > been inspecting equipment. I too was a little concerned since I
                  > > hadn't
                  > > > waxed my bow in the past month, but was quite happy with the way
                  > > the water
                  > > > was beading up and running off the bow.
                  > >
                  > > Johann
                  > >
                  > > Hold, hold, the range is closed. the smoking lamp is lit. This is a
                  > > winded one.
                  > >
                  > > I was going to comment on the above issue off list after I had
                  > > sometime to think and had a clear head to think. But, since this
                  > > has been brought to a public forum I will make my comment here. I
                  > > think you realize there are the Society Archery Marshal and several
                  > > Kingdom Archery Marshals on this list. Several years ago I asked
                  > > why there isn't an equipment on the Estrella War Range.I was told it
                  > > was a libility issue meaning that if a marshal inspected a bow and
                  > > it blew up the marshal can be held accountable. The same thing can
                  > > be said for the arrows. During my tenure as being a marshal I have
                  > > seen many types and ages of bows on the Range at Estrella War. I
                  > > have been on the range when a bow has blown up. One was a bow that
                  > > was about 30 years old the remains that was found, was inspected the
                  > > only place that showed any signs of stress. The second was a bow
                  > > that was 8 months old when it blew.
                  > >
                  > > It is my opinion the it is the Archers responsibility to insure
                  > > their equipment is in good shape. And if the archer is not sure on
                  > > how to properly inspect their equipment then they should contact a
                  > > senior marshal or an Archer that has been shooting for several years
                  > > to inspect their equipment. If I was asked I would inspect the bow
                  > > and arrows.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > Anybody else can be as furious as they want to be, as someone
                  > > who stepped into
                  > > > > the position voluntarily, I'm tired of it. ....which is one of
                  > > the reaons why I'm
                  > > > > not KAG for my kingdom anymore. It is absolutely thankless.
                  > > >
                  > > Being the Kingdom Archer General/Royal Archer is a thankless job.
                  > > Why? It is up to you to try to get the archers in the kingdom to
                  > > help design the art work for the War senerios, to get help to load
                  > > and unload the truck for war. To set up the Range for war. What
                  > > happens is that you are the one doing all of the work. You may have
                  > > one or two maybe four people to help. It is always the same people.
                  > >
                  > > As for the repair of the equipment again it is up to you to do the
                  > > work. Then again the is transporting the Kingdom Target stands to
                  > > the outer edges of the Kingdom and this group doen't want to travel
                  > > to the Kingdom storage shed to pick them up. It is your
                  > > responsibility to get the equipment to them. I have seen Mistress
                  > > Brenna haul Target stand to Blythe CA. for a Kingdom Archery
                  > > Champion shoot.
                  > >
                  > > Then again What about the local groups that don't submit their
                  > > reports (monthly archery report, doomsday report) in a timely
                  > > manner. Or even submitting the IKAC score to the score keeper.
                  > >
                  > > Most of the time the only input you get from the archers is
                  > > complaints.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Ian Griffen
                  > >
                  > > > I disagree with it being thankless, the problem is that people
                  > > don't speak
                  > > > up when they are happy, only when they are upset. It seems to be
                  > > human
                  > > > nature to only remember the bad parts.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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                  > > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's <a href="http://www.medievalmart.com/"
                  > target="_blank">http://www.medievalmart.com/</a>
                  > >
                  > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >--
                  >Three things never heard from the mouth of a Celt:
                  > "Do these colors match?"
                  > "Is this too much jewelry?"
                  > "Is that my drink?"
                  >
                  >http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
                  >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >---8<---------------------------------------------
                  >Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                  >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                  >
                  >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
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                • Bruce R. Gordon
                  Greetings Oh yeah, that was the other thing I was gonna comment on. I am going to have to step down from this office later this year, sometime after Pennsic.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 23, 2005
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                    Greetings
                    Oh yeah, that was the other thing I was gonna comment on. I am going to have to step down from this office later this year, sometime after Pennsic. I'm gonna hate it, because I love this job, and I would strongly encourage anyone who has a vague interest in marshallate programs to work in the direction of your Kingdom's AG office or equivalent.
                    Aside from Pennsic, which I won't miss at all, working with the Midrealm TAMs has been exhilirating and just plain fun. Yes, reports are often tardy, and always need to be hustled after. That's what I have Regional Deputies for. But the opportunity to have a real impact on how archery works in my area, by revising (or in some cases writing from start) manuals, by troubleshooting problems at the source, by simply being available to answer questions and provide leadership, is too good to pass up.
                    But you gotta have good staffing. Regional and Specialty deputies are vital, and they need to have their own deputies, at least for specialties, as well. If you are lacking in staff then, I agree, it all tends to fall on your shoulders, and then it definitely wouldn't be much fun anymore.

                    Nigel

                    >
                    > As to the office being a thankless task, I have to disagree...
                    --
                    Three things never heard from the mouth of a Celt:
                    "Do these colors match?"
                    "Is this too much jewelry?"
                    "Is that my drink?"

                    http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • hanhebin
                    I ve never seen a range closed in which it wasn t made very clear what the problem was and when the range would reopen. Evidently one archer got off the range
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 23, 2005
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                      I've never seen a range closed in which it wasn't made very clear
                      what the problem was and when the range would reopen. Evidently one
                      archer got off the range not knowing what was going on so the was an
                      obvious lack of communication. What's going to be done to correct
                      this problem in the future?

                      I'm really surprised at the over-reaction to Johann's comments.

                      Michael
                    • Tessa the Huntress
                      Personally, I didn t see it as an over-reaction. If I had been one of those marshals, I prob. would have been a bit upset at his comments, myself. As it was,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 23, 2005
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                        Personally, I didn't see it as an over-reaction. If I had been one of those
                        marshals, I prob. would have been a bit upset at his comments, myself. As
                        it was, I was a bit surprised (and not in a good way) at his comments. The
                        bottom line, IMO.. the marshals felt it wasn't safe to continue, that should
                        be the end of it. It's not a point that is open to debate, especially by
                        those of us who weren't there.

                        I believe Johann's comments came across harsher than he intended, they
                        struck home to at least a couple of the marshals involved.. and I saw
                        apologies from both sides. I think the matter should be dropped, at least
                        in how it relates to comments made.

                        I know from spending many of hours marshalling myself, how much work is
                        involved and how upsetting it can be, after spending 40+ of your own
                        time(that week) working hard so others can enjoy shooting/using the field
                        (which involves a lot more work than many realize, especially at
                        inter-kingdom events) to read or hear negative comments about your hard
                        work. Especially when it's a matter that's out of your control, like the
                        weather or the "powers that be".

                        If people want to discuss different ways to handle x.. problem.. and perhaps
                        explain more of the responsibilities of being a marshal to those who aren't,
                        that would be great. I strongly believe that's it's always a good thing to
                        get more marshals. I would love to see every archer or every other archer
                        be a marshal. That would lessen the burden on our already over worked
                        marshals (especially at Pennsic). At the very least, it means our archers
                        should catch the more common problems/failures themselves, which would help
                        our inspecting marshals.

                        Let's try and keep it constructive, rather than negative. It's very easy
                        not to understand how much work is involved.. and it's easy to take offense,
                        if you are one of the ones who busted their butts, so others could have
                        fun.. Those directly involved have apologized, so there's no need to
                        re-open that issue.

                        So, how can we improve things for next time?

                        Tessa, Princess of AEthelmearc




                        I'm really surprised at the over-reaction to Johann's comments.

                        Michael
                      • Johann Friedrich
                        The conditions at the time was less than optimal for disseminating information. Rain was beginning to come down very steady, and everyone was attempting to
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 23, 2005
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                          The conditions at the time was less than optimal for disseminating
                          information. Rain was beginning to come down very steady, and everyone
                          was attempting to cram under a 10'x10' pavilion. A few of us actually put
                          our stuff away under a leaky sun shade and managed to hand our soggy score
                          sheets into the packed pavilion and head back to camp. They had valid
                          reasons for closing the range, it was just unfortunate that the situation
                          prevented them from explaining to everyone _why_ they were closing the
                          range.

                          On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, hanhebin wrote:

                          > I've never seen a range closed in which it wasn't made very clear
                          > what the problem was and when the range would reopen. Evidently one
                          > archer got off the range not knowing what was going on so the was an
                          > obvious lack of communication. What's going to be done to correct
                          > this problem in the future?
                          >
                          > I'm really surprised at the over-reaction to Johann's comments.
                          >
                          > Michael

                          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[The Realm of Darkness]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= O-
                          Ken Bowley yahoo@...
                          AKA: Lord Johann Friedrich http://www.trod.org
                          -=-=-=-=[Per saltire sable and gules, in fess two rapiers Or]=-=-=-=-
                        • Barnabas Remington
                          ... The only thing that comes to mind (other than maybe paying off the weatherman to get us overcast-but-not-rainy days ) is perhaps having an
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 23, 2005
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                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Tessa the Huntress"
                            <tessathehuntress@e...> wrote:
                            >
                            > So, how can we improve things for next time?
                            >

                            The only thing that comes to mind (other than maybe paying off the
                            weatherman to get us 'overcast-but-not-rainy' days <g>) is perhaps
                            having an announcement type bulletin board for range closures and
                            such located in a central place (maybe a whiteboard located near
                            volunteer point?) I know that there was some confusion about when
                            the range was open/closed, and no way of finding out without walking
                            across the park to the archery site or bothering the folks with
                            radios. Granted, I know this isn't much of a complaint (since I
                            certainly need the walking exercise!), but it would have been handy.

                            Come to think of it, that would have been handy for rapier and
                            hardsuit as well, since there seemed to be a bit of confusion over
                            the changes brought on by the weather and I had to check with several
                            people in each case until I found someone who could give me a
                            definitive answer.

                            Overall, I think that all the folks running the activities did the
                            best they could under the circumstances and all the activities went
                            off without a hitch (when they could go off at all...), so only minor
                            changes are probably necessary...some sort of announcement board is
                            all I can personally come up with...

                            Evan Hawkins
                          • rfultz@up.com
                            Y all did a wonderful job and the set-up was great and well organized! (Even if my partner won the bow.) Richard the Seam Ripper Spurs and All, Outlands Tessa
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 23, 2005
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                              Y'all did a wonderful job and the set-up was great and well organized!
                              (Even if my partner won the bow.)

                              Richard the Seam Ripper
                              Spurs and All, Outlands



                              "Tessa the Huntress"
                              <tessathehuntress@ear
                              thlink.net>

                              02/23/05 09:54 AM




                              Personally, I didn't see it as an over-reaction. If I had been one of
                              those
                              marshals, I prob. would have been a bit upset at his comments, myself. As
                              it was, I was a bit surprised (and not in a good way) at his comments. The
                              bottom line, IMO.. the marshals felt it wasn't safe to continue, that
                              should
                              be the end of it. It's not a point that is open to debate, especially by
                              those of us who weren't there.

                              I believe Johann's comments came across harsher than he intended, they
                              struck home to at least a couple of the marshals involved.. and I saw
                              apologies from both sides. I think the matter should be dropped, at least
                              in how it relates to comments made.

                              I know from spending many of hours marshalling myself, how much work is
                              involved and how upsetting it can be, after spending 40+ of your own
                              time(that week) working hard so others can enjoy shooting/using the field
                              (which involves a lot more work than many realize, especially at
                              inter-kingdom events) to read or hear negative comments about your hard
                              work. Especially when it's a matter that's out of your control, like the
                              weather or the "powers that be".

                              If people want to discuss different ways to handle x.. problem.. and
                              perhaps
                              explain more of the responsibilities of being a marshal to those who
                              aren't,
                              that would be great. I strongly believe that's it's always a good thing to
                              get more marshals. I would love to see every archer or every other archer
                              be a marshal. That would lessen the burden on our already over worked
                              marshals (especially at Pennsic). At the very least, it means our archers
                              should catch the more common problems/failures themselves, which would help
                              our inspecting marshals.

                              Let's try and keep it constructive, rather than negative. It's very easy
                              not to understand how much work is involved.. and it's easy to take
                              offense,
                              if you are one of the ones who busted their butts, so others could have
                              fun.. Those directly involved have apologized, so there's no need to
                              re-open that issue.

                              So, how can we improve things for next time?

                              Tessa, Princess of AEthelmearc
                            • Siegfried
                              ... Ditto for Atlantia ... and yes, it is inspected for safety. (Sorry, yes, I m a bit behind on reading/responding to the list - see my previous post about
                              Message 14 of 14 , Mar 3 2:42 PM
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                                > In the Midrealm, every bow (and a representative sample of arrows from every quiver) MUST be inspected before it is allowed anywhere near the range (whether at a local practice or at an interkingdom war). Ditto the East, ditto AEthelmearc (read: the three biggies at Pennsic).

                                Ditto for Atlantia ... and yes, it is inspected for safety.

                                (Sorry, yes, I'm a bit behind on reading/responding to the list - see
                                my previous post about administration issues) ...

                                Siegfried - Catching back up
                                KAM of Atlantia
                                --

                                ___________________________________________________________________________
                                THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust http://crossbows.biz/
                                Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery Marshal
                                Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/ http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
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