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Re: [SCA-Archery] Back Quiver revisited

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  • Nest verch Tangwistel
    Well, I am not sure what else you are going to find from that period. The only pictures out there would be representations of religious texts or occasional
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 7, 2004
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      Well, I am not sure what else you are going to find from that period. The
      only pictures out there would be representations of religious texts or
      occasional pictures of wars (and those are much rarer). There is just very
      little art which survives from the 9th century. At least this implies that
      it is not an unthinkable idea to put your quiver over your back. It is
      interesting that is looks very similar to the Bayeux tapestry's depiction
      of the back quiver. A single thin belt-like strap going around the
      shoulder.

      Nest
      --- blkknighti@... wrote:

      >
      > Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David,
      > that
      > the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
      > wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to
      > shoot from the
      > shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
      > directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply
      > continued in 10.
      > Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly
      > unlikely
      > that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in
      > period in
      > that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical
      > passage
      > and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
      > biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows
      > and of course
      > the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous
      > discussion of
      > the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
      > I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back
      > quiver.
      > Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved
      > I'd
      > actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht
      > Psalter.
      > Another time maybe.
      >
      > Richard
      >
      > In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM, eastarch@... writes:
      >
      >
      > > Richard,
      > >
      > > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing
      > the
      > > Psalms of David.� The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th
      > Psalm.
      > > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not
      > up on
      > > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
      > > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the
      > artist
      > > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at
      > 1180-1200.
      > > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on
      > the
      > > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English
      > copies of
      > > the original Utrecht Psalter.
      > >
      > > Nest
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
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    • J. Hughes
      Actually the safest assumption is that the artist had no idea of what the Romans actually had by way of equipment (unless he had a Roman image in front of
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 7, 2004
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        Actually the safest assumption is that the artist had
        no idea of what the Romans actually had by way of
        equipment (unless he had a Roman image in front of
        him). The artist would therefore use contemporary
        equipment as his model. This is standard practice
        through most of the Middle Ages. If you want to know
        what the armor of a period was look at the soldiers at
        the foot of the cross. They will either be wearing
        clearly fantasy armor or the latest fashion.

        I love the pictures that show an old testament siege
        of Jerusalem with the attackers using crossbows. It is
        not that the artists knew there was a form of crossbow
        in ancient times and there is even clear evidence that
        there were hunting crossbows in Palestine during the
        Roman period. What the artists show is rather the
        crossbow of the Middle Ages rather than any of the
        ancient crossbows.

        But any picture from period will, at best, only give
        you assumptions. The more evidence assembled the
        greater the probability that the assumption is
        correct.

        Charles O'Connor
        --- blkknighti@... wrote:

        >
        > Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the
        > correct Psalm 10 of David, that
        > the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2
        > ... "For look, the
        > wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows
        > against the strings to shoot from the
        > shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the
        > previous Psalm refers
        > directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the
        > same tone simply continued in 10.
        > Now while the document itself was produced in period
        > it is highly unlikely
        > that it can be considered evidentiary of back
        > quivers being use in period in
        > that geographical location. The illustration it
        > seems depicts a biblical passage
        > and I would suspect the artist to his license to
        > capture the passage in
        > biblical period form, including the dress,
        > especially the bow, arrows and of course
        > the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much
        > like a previous discussion of
        > the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
        > I think we can hardly consider this a period
        > reference for the back quiver.
        > Thanks again for posting those pictures. After
        > reading Psalms envolved I'd
        > actually like to see the whole of the first from the
        > original Utrecht Psalter.
        > Another time maybe.
        >
        > Richard
        >
        > In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM,
        > eastarch@... writes:
        >
        >
        > > Richard,
        > >
        > > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in
        > Medieval art: Picturing the
        > > Psalms of David.� The 2 pictures are
        > representations of the 10th Psalm.
        > > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration
        > depicts. I am not up on
        > > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht
        > psalter, the second
        > > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably
        > drawn after the artist
        > > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is
        > estimated at 1180-1200.
        > > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the
        > first. The book goes on the
        > > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as
        > other English copies of
        > > the original Utrecht Psalter.
        > >
        > > Nest



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      • Carolus von Eulenhorst
        On the other hand, many art works from period use local contemporary dress and fashion to depict biblical themes and so are excellent sources of documentation.
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 8, 2004
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          On the other hand, many art works from period use local contemporary dress
          and fashion to depict biblical themes and so are excellent sources of
          documentation. It was difficult for many period artists to
          conceptualize historical dress as they didn't have the type of knowledge
          base current artists have. It will take much more research, however

          Carolus

          .At 10:43 PM 12/6/2004, you wrote:

          >Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that
          >the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
          >wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to shoot
          >from the
          >shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
          >directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply
          >continued in 10.
          >Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly unlikely
          >that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in period in
          >that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical
          >passage
          >and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
          >biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows and
          >of course
          >the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous
          >discussion of
          >the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
          >I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back quiver.
          >Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved I'd
          >actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht
          >Psalter.
          >Another time maybe.
          >
          >Richard
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