Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA-Archery] Back Quiver revisited

Expand Messages
  • Nest verch Tangwistel
    Richard, These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing the Psalms of David. The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th Psalm.
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Richard,

      These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing the
      Psalms of David. The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th Psalm.
      Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not up on
      my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
      picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the artist
      saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at 1180-1200.
      Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on the
      list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English copies of
      the original Utrecht Psalter.

      Nest
      --- blkknighti@... wrote:

      >
      > Interesting...did you find this online? If so can you please supply the
      > link
      > ? I am interested what event and when these illustrations are depicting.
      > Richard




      __________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
      http://my.yahoo.com
    • Eadric Anstapa
      ... Nest, thanks for digging up the extra pictures. Those definately appear to be back quivers. Just the excellent period refrence I am been looking for. I
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Nest verch Tangwistel wrote:

        >Greetings all,
        >
        >While looking through a book on the Utrecht Psalter I found 2 pictures of
        >men using what are clearly back quivers. I put copies of the pictures in
        >my photo folder. I know we were just talking about them so I thought I
        >would share these. The Utrecht Psalter is believed to have been produced
        >in the ninth century somewhere around modern day Germany.
        >
        >For those who don't know what I mean, go to the home page of this group
        >and click on photos, then Nest's photos. They are the only pictures I have
        >posted.
        >
        >Nest
        >
        >

        Nest, thanks for digging up the extra pictures. Those definately appear
        to be back quivers. Just the excellent period refrence I am been
        looking for.

        I also was looking through my copy of the Grey Goose Wing and saw the
        following:

        1. p38 Akkadian Cylinder seal of IbilIshtar (c 2370 - 2320 B.C)
        showing a hunter with what is believed to be the oldest representation
        of a composite bow. The hunter is also wearing a back quiver filled
        with arrows (yes I know way pre-period)

        2. p41 one of the Bowmen of Rameses III (c 1192 -1160 B.C) wearing a
        back quiver. again pre-period

        3. p 46 Assyrian archers wearing a back quiver (c 721 - 705 B.C)
        again pre-period

        4. p54 Estruscan bronze of Amazon delivering a Parthian shot. wearing
        a back quiver. from the 6th century B.C again pre-period

        5. p55 Another Estruscan bronze of a figure wearing a back quiver.
        Undated but would have been from 600 - 300 B.C. again pre-period

        6. p89 The Bayeaux tapestry. I still maintain that there are back
        quivers depicted there.

        7. p127 Portrait of Willliam le May who was captain of 120 archers of
        the King of France Louis XI (1461 - 1483) and Govenor of the city of
        Paris. He is holding a Longbow and at his feet is what to me is
        clearly a back quiver.

        Regards,

        --
        HL Eadric Anstapa
        DSEM CA
        /eadric@.../ <mailto:eadric@...>



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • blkknighti@aol.com
        Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... For look, the wicked
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that
          the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
          wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to shoot from the
          shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
          directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply continued in 10.
          Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly unlikely
          that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in period in
          that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical passage
          and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
          biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows and of course
          the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous discussion of
          the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
          I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back quiver.
          Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved I'd
          actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht Psalter.
          Another time maybe.

          Richard

          In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM, eastarch@... writes:


          > Richard,
          >
          > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing the
          > Psalms of David.  The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th Psalm.
          > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not up on
          > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
          > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the artist
          > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at 1180-1200.
          > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on the
          > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English copies of
          > the original Utrecht Psalter.
          >
          > Nest
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • blkknighti@aol.com
          Eadric while I highly regard your opinion I beg to differ... One definately appears to be a back quiver, the second may be a copy of the first and the third
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Eadric while I highly regard your opinion I beg to differ...
            One definately appears to be a back quiver, the second may be a copy of the
            first and the third could be a hip quiver on a baldric type support and in all
            three the participants seem to be wearing Roman period attire along with bows
            illustrated in classical Roman style. As I said in my reply to Nest, I think
            we can hardly consider this an excellent period reference for the back quiver.

            In a message dated 12/6/04 11:06:59 PM, smills@... writes:

            >>Nest, thanks for digging up the extra pictures.  Those definately appear
            to be back quivers.  Just the excellent period refrence I am been
            looking for.<<

            Is it possible to get this illustration scanned and available to us on this
            list? I would like to see this for myself and I am wondering what makes you
            determine that it is clearly a back quiver. When was the Portrait actually
            produced?

            > >>7.  p127  Portrait of Willliam le May who was captain of 120 archers of
            > the King of France  Louis XI (1461 - 1483)  and Govenor of the city of
            > Paris.  He is holding  a Longbow and at his feet is what to me is
            > clearly a back quiver.<<
            >

            I am very familiar with Bayeux Tapestry and the debate contained with the
            back/hip quiver concept. While they *could* be back quivers I still maintain it
            is more likely that they are hip quivers as others are depicted in the same
            tapestry simply slung over the shoulder perhaps in haste. I have done this myself
            on several occasions.
            > >>6.  p89  The Bayeaux tapestry.  I still maintain that there are back
            > quivers depicted there.<<
            >
            Respectfully,
            Richard


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nest verch Tangwistel
            Well, I am not sure what else you are going to find from that period. The only pictures out there would be representations of religious texts or occasional
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 7, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Well, I am not sure what else you are going to find from that period. The
              only pictures out there would be representations of religious texts or
              occasional pictures of wars (and those are much rarer). There is just very
              little art which survives from the 9th century. At least this implies that
              it is not an unthinkable idea to put your quiver over your back. It is
              interesting that is looks very similar to the Bayeux tapestry's depiction
              of the back quiver. A single thin belt-like strap going around the
              shoulder.

              Nest
              --- blkknighti@... wrote:

              >
              > Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David,
              > that
              > the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
              > wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to
              > shoot from the
              > shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
              > directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply
              > continued in 10.
              > Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly
              > unlikely
              > that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in
              > period in
              > that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical
              > passage
              > and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
              > biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows
              > and of course
              > the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous
              > discussion of
              > the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
              > I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back
              > quiver.
              > Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved
              > I'd
              > actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht
              > Psalter.
              > Another time maybe.
              >
              > Richard
              >
              > In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM, eastarch@... writes:
              >
              >
              > > Richard,
              > >
              > > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing
              > the
              > > Psalms of David.� The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th
              > Psalm.
              > > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not
              > up on
              > > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
              > > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the
              > artist
              > > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at
              > 1180-1200.
              > > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on
              > the
              > > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English
              > copies of
              > > the original Utrecht Psalter.
              > >
              > > Nest
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
              > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
              > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
              >
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >




              __________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
              http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
            • J. Hughes
              Actually the safest assumption is that the artist had no idea of what the Romans actually had by way of equipment (unless he had a Roman image in front of
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 7, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Actually the safest assumption is that the artist had
                no idea of what the Romans actually had by way of
                equipment (unless he had a Roman image in front of
                him). The artist would therefore use contemporary
                equipment as his model. This is standard practice
                through most of the Middle Ages. If you want to know
                what the armor of a period was look at the soldiers at
                the foot of the cross. They will either be wearing
                clearly fantasy armor or the latest fashion.

                I love the pictures that show an old testament siege
                of Jerusalem with the attackers using crossbows. It is
                not that the artists knew there was a form of crossbow
                in ancient times and there is even clear evidence that
                there were hunting crossbows in Palestine during the
                Roman period. What the artists show is rather the
                crossbow of the Middle Ages rather than any of the
                ancient crossbows.

                But any picture from period will, at best, only give
                you assumptions. The more evidence assembled the
                greater the probability that the assumption is
                correct.

                Charles O'Connor
                --- blkknighti@... wrote:

                >
                > Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the
                > correct Psalm 10 of David, that
                > the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2
                > ... "For look, the
                > wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows
                > against the strings to shoot from the
                > shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the
                > previous Psalm refers
                > directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the
                > same tone simply continued in 10.
                > Now while the document itself was produced in period
                > it is highly unlikely
                > that it can be considered evidentiary of back
                > quivers being use in period in
                > that geographical location. The illustration it
                > seems depicts a biblical passage
                > and I would suspect the artist to his license to
                > capture the passage in
                > biblical period form, including the dress,
                > especially the bow, arrows and of course
                > the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much
                > like a previous discussion of
                > the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
                > I think we can hardly consider this a period
                > reference for the back quiver.
                > Thanks again for posting those pictures. After
                > reading Psalms envolved I'd
                > actually like to see the whole of the first from the
                > original Utrecht Psalter.
                > Another time maybe.
                >
                > Richard
                >
                > In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM,
                > eastarch@... writes:
                >
                >
                > > Richard,
                > >
                > > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in
                > Medieval art: Picturing the
                > > Psalms of David.� The 2 pictures are
                > representations of the 10th Psalm.
                > > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration
                > depicts. I am not up on
                > > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht
                > psalter, the second
                > > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably
                > drawn after the artist
                > > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is
                > estimated at 1180-1200.
                > > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the
                > first. The book goes on the
                > > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as
                > other English copies of
                > > the original Utrecht Psalter.
                > >
                > > Nest



                __________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
                http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
              • Carolus von Eulenhorst
                On the other hand, many art works from period use local contemporary dress and fashion to depict biblical themes and so are excellent sources of documentation.
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 8, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  On the other hand, many art works from period use local contemporary dress
                  and fashion to depict biblical themes and so are excellent sources of
                  documentation. It was difficult for many period artists to
                  conceptualize historical dress as they didn't have the type of knowledge
                  base current artists have. It will take much more research, however

                  Carolus

                  .At 10:43 PM 12/6/2004, you wrote:

                  >Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that
                  >the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
                  >wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to shoot
                  >from the
                  >shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
                  >directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply
                  >continued in 10.
                  >Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly unlikely
                  >that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in period in
                  >that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical
                  >passage
                  >and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
                  >biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows and
                  >of course
                  >the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous
                  >discussion of
                  >the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
                  >I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back quiver.
                  >Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved I'd
                  >actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht
                  >Psalter.
                  >Another time maybe.
                  >
                  >Richard
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.