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Back Quiver revisited

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  • Nest verch Tangwistel
    Greetings all, While looking through a book on the Utrecht Psalter I found 2 pictures of men using what are clearly back quivers. I put copies of the pictures
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
      Greetings all,

      While looking through a book on the Utrecht Psalter I found 2 pictures of
      men using what are clearly back quivers. I put copies of the pictures in
      my photo folder. I know we were just talking about them so I thought I
      would share these. The Utrecht Psalter is believed to have been produced
      in the ninth century somewhere around modern day Germany.

      For those who don't know what I mean, go to the home page of this group
      and click on photos, then Nest's photos. They are the only pictures I have
      posted.

      Nest




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    • blkknighti@aol.com
      Interesting...did you find this online? If so can you please supply the link ? I am interested what event and when these illustrations are depicting. Richard
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
        Interesting...did you find this online? If so can you please supply the link
        ? I am interested what event and when these illustrations are depicting.
        Richard
        In a message dated 12/6/04 7:15:14 PM, eastarch@... writes:


        >
        > While looking through a book on the Utrecht Psalter I found 2 pictures of
        > men using what are clearly back quivers. I put copies of the pictures in
        > my photo folder. I know we were just talking about them so I thought I
        > would share these. The Utrecht Psalter is believed to have been produced
        > in the ninth century somewhere around modern day Germany.
        >
        > For those who don't know what I mean, go to the home page of this group
        > and click on photos, then Nest's photos. They are the only pictures I have
        > posted.
        >
        > Nest
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nest verch Tangwistel
        Richard, These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing the Psalms of David. The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th Psalm.
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
          Richard,

          These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing the
          Psalms of David. The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th Psalm.
          Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not up on
          my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
          picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the artist
          saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at 1180-1200.
          Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on the
          list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English copies of
          the original Utrecht Psalter.

          Nest
          --- blkknighti@... wrote:

          >
          > Interesting...did you find this online? If so can you please supply the
          > link
          > ? I am interested what event and when these illustrations are depicting.
          > Richard




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        • Eadric Anstapa
          ... Nest, thanks for digging up the extra pictures. Those definately appear to be back quivers. Just the excellent period refrence I am been looking for. I
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
            Nest verch Tangwistel wrote:

            >Greetings all,
            >
            >While looking through a book on the Utrecht Psalter I found 2 pictures of
            >men using what are clearly back quivers. I put copies of the pictures in
            >my photo folder. I know we were just talking about them so I thought I
            >would share these. The Utrecht Psalter is believed to have been produced
            >in the ninth century somewhere around modern day Germany.
            >
            >For those who don't know what I mean, go to the home page of this group
            >and click on photos, then Nest's photos. They are the only pictures I have
            >posted.
            >
            >Nest
            >
            >

            Nest, thanks for digging up the extra pictures. Those definately appear
            to be back quivers. Just the excellent period refrence I am been
            looking for.

            I also was looking through my copy of the Grey Goose Wing and saw the
            following:

            1. p38 Akkadian Cylinder seal of IbilIshtar (c 2370 - 2320 B.C)
            showing a hunter with what is believed to be the oldest representation
            of a composite bow. The hunter is also wearing a back quiver filled
            with arrows (yes I know way pre-period)

            2. p41 one of the Bowmen of Rameses III (c 1192 -1160 B.C) wearing a
            back quiver. again pre-period

            3. p 46 Assyrian archers wearing a back quiver (c 721 - 705 B.C)
            again pre-period

            4. p54 Estruscan bronze of Amazon delivering a Parthian shot. wearing
            a back quiver. from the 6th century B.C again pre-period

            5. p55 Another Estruscan bronze of a figure wearing a back quiver.
            Undated but would have been from 600 - 300 B.C. again pre-period

            6. p89 The Bayeaux tapestry. I still maintain that there are back
            quivers depicted there.

            7. p127 Portrait of Willliam le May who was captain of 120 archers of
            the King of France Louis XI (1461 - 1483) and Govenor of the city of
            Paris. He is holding a Longbow and at his feet is what to me is
            clearly a back quiver.

            Regards,

            --
            HL Eadric Anstapa
            DSEM CA
            /eadric@.../ <mailto:eadric@...>



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • blkknighti@aol.com
            Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... For look, the wicked
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
              Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that
              the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
              wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to shoot from the
              shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
              directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply continued in 10.
              Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly unlikely
              that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in period in
              that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical passage
              and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
              biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows and of course
              the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous discussion of
              the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
              I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back quiver.
              Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved I'd
              actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht Psalter.
              Another time maybe.

              Richard

              In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM, eastarch@... writes:


              > Richard,
              >
              > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing the
              > Psalms of David.  The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th Psalm.
              > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not up on
              > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
              > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the artist
              > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at 1180-1200.
              > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on the
              > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English copies of
              > the original Utrecht Psalter.
              >
              > Nest
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • blkknighti@aol.com
              Eadric while I highly regard your opinion I beg to differ... One definately appears to be a back quiver, the second may be a copy of the first and the third
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
                Eadric while I highly regard your opinion I beg to differ...
                One definately appears to be a back quiver, the second may be a copy of the
                first and the third could be a hip quiver on a baldric type support and in all
                three the participants seem to be wearing Roman period attire along with bows
                illustrated in classical Roman style. As I said in my reply to Nest, I think
                we can hardly consider this an excellent period reference for the back quiver.

                In a message dated 12/6/04 11:06:59 PM, smills@... writes:

                >>Nest, thanks for digging up the extra pictures.  Those definately appear
                to be back quivers.  Just the excellent period refrence I am been
                looking for.<<

                Is it possible to get this illustration scanned and available to us on this
                list? I would like to see this for myself and I am wondering what makes you
                determine that it is clearly a back quiver. When was the Portrait actually
                produced?

                > >>7.  p127  Portrait of Willliam le May who was captain of 120 archers of
                > the King of France  Louis XI (1461 - 1483)  and Govenor of the city of
                > Paris.  He is holding  a Longbow and at his feet is what to me is
                > clearly a back quiver.<<
                >

                I am very familiar with Bayeux Tapestry and the debate contained with the
                back/hip quiver concept. While they *could* be back quivers I still maintain it
                is more likely that they are hip quivers as others are depicted in the same
                tapestry simply slung over the shoulder perhaps in haste. I have done this myself
                on several occasions.
                > >>6.  p89  The Bayeaux tapestry.  I still maintain that there are back
                > quivers depicted there.<<
                >
                Respectfully,
                Richard


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nest verch Tangwistel
                Well, I am not sure what else you are going to find from that period. The only pictures out there would be representations of religious texts or occasional
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 7, 2004
                  Well, I am not sure what else you are going to find from that period. The
                  only pictures out there would be representations of religious texts or
                  occasional pictures of wars (and those are much rarer). There is just very
                  little art which survives from the 9th century. At least this implies that
                  it is not an unthinkable idea to put your quiver over your back. It is
                  interesting that is looks very similar to the Bayeux tapestry's depiction
                  of the back quiver. A single thin belt-like strap going around the
                  shoulder.

                  Nest
                  --- blkknighti@... wrote:

                  >
                  > Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David,
                  > that
                  > the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
                  > wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to
                  > shoot from the
                  > shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
                  > directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply
                  > continued in 10.
                  > Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly
                  > unlikely
                  > that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in
                  > period in
                  > that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical
                  > passage
                  > and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
                  > biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows
                  > and of course
                  > the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous
                  > discussion of
                  > the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
                  > I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back
                  > quiver.
                  > Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved
                  > I'd
                  > actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht
                  > Psalter.
                  > Another time maybe.
                  >
                  > Richard
                  >
                  > In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM, eastarch@... writes:
                  >
                  >
                  > > Richard,
                  > >
                  > > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing
                  > the
                  > > Psalms of David.� The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th
                  > Psalm.
                  > > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not
                  > up on
                  > > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
                  > > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the
                  > artist
                  > > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at
                  > 1180-1200.
                  > > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on
                  > the
                  > > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English
                  > copies of
                  > > the original Utrecht Psalter.
                  > >
                  > > Nest
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • J. Hughes
                  Actually the safest assumption is that the artist had no idea of what the Romans actually had by way of equipment (unless he had a Roman image in front of
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 7, 2004
                    Actually the safest assumption is that the artist had
                    no idea of what the Romans actually had by way of
                    equipment (unless he had a Roman image in front of
                    him). The artist would therefore use contemporary
                    equipment as his model. This is standard practice
                    through most of the Middle Ages. If you want to know
                    what the armor of a period was look at the soldiers at
                    the foot of the cross. They will either be wearing
                    clearly fantasy armor or the latest fashion.

                    I love the pictures that show an old testament siege
                    of Jerusalem with the attackers using crossbows. It is
                    not that the artists knew there was a form of crossbow
                    in ancient times and there is even clear evidence that
                    there were hunting crossbows in Palestine during the
                    Roman period. What the artists show is rather the
                    crossbow of the Middle Ages rather than any of the
                    ancient crossbows.

                    But any picture from period will, at best, only give
                    you assumptions. The more evidence assembled the
                    greater the probability that the assumption is
                    correct.

                    Charles O'Connor
                    --- blkknighti@... wrote:

                    >
                    > Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the
                    > correct Psalm 10 of David, that
                    > the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2
                    > ... "For look, the
                    > wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows
                    > against the strings to shoot from the
                    > shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the
                    > previous Psalm refers
                    > directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the
                    > same tone simply continued in 10.
                    > Now while the document itself was produced in period
                    > it is highly unlikely
                    > that it can be considered evidentiary of back
                    > quivers being use in period in
                    > that geographical location. The illustration it
                    > seems depicts a biblical passage
                    > and I would suspect the artist to his license to
                    > capture the passage in
                    > biblical period form, including the dress,
                    > especially the bow, arrows and of course
                    > the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much
                    > like a previous discussion of
                    > the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
                    > I think we can hardly consider this a period
                    > reference for the back quiver.
                    > Thanks again for posting those pictures. After
                    > reading Psalms envolved I'd
                    > actually like to see the whole of the first from the
                    > original Utrecht Psalter.
                    > Another time maybe.
                    >
                    > Richard
                    >
                    > In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM,
                    > eastarch@... writes:
                    >
                    >
                    > > Richard,
                    > >
                    > > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in
                    > Medieval art: Picturing the
                    > > Psalms of David.� The 2 pictures are
                    > representations of the 10th Psalm.
                    > > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration
                    > depicts. I am not up on
                    > > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht
                    > psalter, the second
                    > > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably
                    > drawn after the artist
                    > > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is
                    > estimated at 1180-1200.
                    > > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the
                    > first. The book goes on the
                    > > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as
                    > other English copies of
                    > > the original Utrecht Psalter.
                    > >
                    > > Nest



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                  • Carolus von Eulenhorst
                    On the other hand, many art works from period use local contemporary dress and fashion to depict biblical themes and so are excellent sources of documentation.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 8, 2004
                      On the other hand, many art works from period use local contemporary dress
                      and fashion to depict biblical themes and so are excellent sources of
                      documentation. It was difficult for many period artists to
                      conceptualize historical dress as they didn't have the type of knowledge
                      base current artists have. It will take much more research, however

                      Carolus

                      .At 10:43 PM 12/6/2004, you wrote:

                      >Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that
                      >the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
                      >wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to shoot
                      >from the
                      >shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
                      >directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply
                      >continued in 10.
                      >Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly unlikely
                      >that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in period in
                      >that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical
                      >passage
                      >and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
                      >biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows and
                      >of course
                      >the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous
                      >discussion of
                      >the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
                      >I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back quiver.
                      >Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved I'd
                      >actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht
                      >Psalter.
                      >Another time maybe.
                      >
                      >Richard
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