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Hero of the Chalice???

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  • krymsonknight2003
    Anyone heading to Trimaris for Hero of the Chalice? If so I will be set up there as a vendor, please stop by and say hello. John Krymson Archer Bows
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
      Anyone heading to Trimaris for Hero of the Chalice? If so I will be
      set up there as a vendor, please stop by and say hello.
      John
      Krymson Archer Bows
      http://www.krymsonarcherbows.com
    • Nest verch Tangwistel
      Greetings all, While looking through a book on the Utrecht Psalter I found 2 pictures of men using what are clearly back quivers. I put copies of the pictures
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
        Greetings all,

        While looking through a book on the Utrecht Psalter I found 2 pictures of
        men using what are clearly back quivers. I put copies of the pictures in
        my photo folder. I know we were just talking about them so I thought I
        would share these. The Utrecht Psalter is believed to have been produced
        in the ninth century somewhere around modern day Germany.

        For those who don't know what I mean, go to the home page of this group
        and click on photos, then Nest's photos. They are the only pictures I have
        posted.

        Nest




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      • blkknighti@aol.com
        Interesting...did you find this online? If so can you please supply the link ? I am interested what event and when these illustrations are depicting. Richard
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
          Interesting...did you find this online? If so can you please supply the link
          ? I am interested what event and when these illustrations are depicting.
          Richard
          In a message dated 12/6/04 7:15:14 PM, eastarch@... writes:


          >
          > While looking through a book on the Utrecht Psalter I found 2 pictures of
          > men using what are clearly back quivers. I put copies of the pictures in
          > my photo folder. I know we were just talking about them so I thought I
          > would share these. The Utrecht Psalter is believed to have been produced
          > in the ninth century somewhere around modern day Germany.
          >
          > For those who don't know what I mean, go to the home page of this group
          > and click on photos, then Nest's photos. They are the only pictures I have
          > posted.
          >
          > Nest
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nest verch Tangwistel
          Richard, These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing the Psalms of David. The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th Psalm.
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
            Richard,

            These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing the
            Psalms of David. The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th Psalm.
            Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not up on
            my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
            picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the artist
            saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at 1180-1200.
            Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on the
            list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English copies of
            the original Utrecht Psalter.

            Nest
            --- blkknighti@... wrote:

            >
            > Interesting...did you find this online? If so can you please supply the
            > link
            > ? I am interested what event and when these illustrations are depicting.
            > Richard




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          • Eadric Anstapa
            ... Nest, thanks for digging up the extra pictures. Those definately appear to be back quivers. Just the excellent period refrence I am been looking for. I
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
              Nest verch Tangwistel wrote:

              >Greetings all,
              >
              >While looking through a book on the Utrecht Psalter I found 2 pictures of
              >men using what are clearly back quivers. I put copies of the pictures in
              >my photo folder. I know we were just talking about them so I thought I
              >would share these. The Utrecht Psalter is believed to have been produced
              >in the ninth century somewhere around modern day Germany.
              >
              >For those who don't know what I mean, go to the home page of this group
              >and click on photos, then Nest's photos. They are the only pictures I have
              >posted.
              >
              >Nest
              >
              >

              Nest, thanks for digging up the extra pictures. Those definately appear
              to be back quivers. Just the excellent period refrence I am been
              looking for.

              I also was looking through my copy of the Grey Goose Wing and saw the
              following:

              1. p38 Akkadian Cylinder seal of IbilIshtar (c 2370 - 2320 B.C)
              showing a hunter with what is believed to be the oldest representation
              of a composite bow. The hunter is also wearing a back quiver filled
              with arrows (yes I know way pre-period)

              2. p41 one of the Bowmen of Rameses III (c 1192 -1160 B.C) wearing a
              back quiver. again pre-period

              3. p 46 Assyrian archers wearing a back quiver (c 721 - 705 B.C)
              again pre-period

              4. p54 Estruscan bronze of Amazon delivering a Parthian shot. wearing
              a back quiver. from the 6th century B.C again pre-period

              5. p55 Another Estruscan bronze of a figure wearing a back quiver.
              Undated but would have been from 600 - 300 B.C. again pre-period

              6. p89 The Bayeaux tapestry. I still maintain that there are back
              quivers depicted there.

              7. p127 Portrait of Willliam le May who was captain of 120 archers of
              the King of France Louis XI (1461 - 1483) and Govenor of the city of
              Paris. He is holding a Longbow and at his feet is what to me is
              clearly a back quiver.

              Regards,

              --
              HL Eadric Anstapa
              DSEM CA
              /eadric@.../ <mailto:eadric@...>



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • blkknighti@aol.com
              Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... For look, the wicked
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
                Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that
                the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
                wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to shoot from the
                shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
                directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply continued in 10.
                Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly unlikely
                that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in period in
                that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical passage
                and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
                biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows and of course
                the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous discussion of
                the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
                I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back quiver.
                Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved I'd
                actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht Psalter.
                Another time maybe.

                Richard

                In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM, eastarch@... writes:


                > Richard,
                >
                > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing the
                > Psalms of David.  The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th Psalm.
                > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not up on
                > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
                > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the artist
                > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at 1180-1200.
                > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on the
                > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English copies of
                > the original Utrecht Psalter.
                >
                > Nest
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • blkknighti@aol.com
                Eadric while I highly regard your opinion I beg to differ... One definately appears to be a back quiver, the second may be a copy of the first and the third
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 6, 2004
                  Eadric while I highly regard your opinion I beg to differ...
                  One definately appears to be a back quiver, the second may be a copy of the
                  first and the third could be a hip quiver on a baldric type support and in all
                  three the participants seem to be wearing Roman period attire along with bows
                  illustrated in classical Roman style. As I said in my reply to Nest, I think
                  we can hardly consider this an excellent period reference for the back quiver.

                  In a message dated 12/6/04 11:06:59 PM, smills@... writes:

                  >>Nest, thanks for digging up the extra pictures.  Those definately appear
                  to be back quivers.  Just the excellent period refrence I am been
                  looking for.<<

                  Is it possible to get this illustration scanned and available to us on this
                  list? I would like to see this for myself and I am wondering what makes you
                  determine that it is clearly a back quiver. When was the Portrait actually
                  produced?

                  > >>7.  p127  Portrait of Willliam le May who was captain of 120 archers of
                  > the King of France  Louis XI (1461 - 1483)  and Govenor of the city of
                  > Paris.  He is holding  a Longbow and at his feet is what to me is
                  > clearly a back quiver.<<
                  >

                  I am very familiar with Bayeux Tapestry and the debate contained with the
                  back/hip quiver concept. While they *could* be back quivers I still maintain it
                  is more likely that they are hip quivers as others are depicted in the same
                  tapestry simply slung over the shoulder perhaps in haste. I have done this myself
                  on several occasions.
                  > >>6.  p89  The Bayeaux tapestry.  I still maintain that there are back
                  > quivers depicted there.<<
                  >
                  Respectfully,
                  Richard


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nest verch Tangwistel
                  Well, I am not sure what else you are going to find from that period. The only pictures out there would be representations of religious texts or occasional
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 7, 2004
                    Well, I am not sure what else you are going to find from that period. The
                    only pictures out there would be representations of religious texts or
                    occasional pictures of wars (and those are much rarer). There is just very
                    little art which survives from the 9th century. At least this implies that
                    it is not an unthinkable idea to put your quiver over your back. It is
                    interesting that is looks very similar to the Bayeux tapestry's depiction
                    of the back quiver. A single thin belt-like strap going around the
                    shoulder.

                    Nest
                    --- blkknighti@... wrote:

                    >
                    > Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David,
                    > that
                    > the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
                    > wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to
                    > shoot from the
                    > shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
                    > directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply
                    > continued in 10.
                    > Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly
                    > unlikely
                    > that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in
                    > period in
                    > that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical
                    > passage
                    > and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
                    > biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows
                    > and of course
                    > the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous
                    > discussion of
                    > the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
                    > I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back
                    > quiver.
                    > Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved
                    > I'd
                    > actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht
                    > Psalter.
                    > Another time maybe.
                    >
                    > Richard
                    >
                    > In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM, eastarch@... writes:
                    >
                    >
                    > > Richard,
                    > >
                    > > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in Medieval art: Picturing
                    > the
                    > > Psalms of David.� The 2 pictures are representations of the 10th
                    > Psalm.
                    > > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration depicts. I am not
                    > up on
                    > > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht psalter, the second
                    > > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably drawn after the
                    > artist
                    > > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is estimated at
                    > 1180-1200.
                    > > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the first. The book goes on
                    > the
                    > > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as other English
                    > copies of
                    > > the original Utrecht Psalter.
                    > >
                    > > Nest
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • J. Hughes
                    Actually the safest assumption is that the artist had no idea of what the Romans actually had by way of equipment (unless he had a Roman image in front of
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 7, 2004
                      Actually the safest assumption is that the artist had
                      no idea of what the Romans actually had by way of
                      equipment (unless he had a Roman image in front of
                      him). The artist would therefore use contemporary
                      equipment as his model. This is standard practice
                      through most of the Middle Ages. If you want to know
                      what the armor of a period was look at the soldiers at
                      the foot of the cross. They will either be wearing
                      clearly fantasy armor or the latest fashion.

                      I love the pictures that show an old testament siege
                      of Jerusalem with the attackers using crossbows. It is
                      not that the artists knew there was a form of crossbow
                      in ancient times and there is even clear evidence that
                      there were hunting crossbows in Palestine during the
                      Roman period. What the artists show is rather the
                      crossbow of the Middle Ages rather than any of the
                      ancient crossbows.

                      But any picture from period will, at best, only give
                      you assumptions. The more evidence assembled the
                      greater the probability that the assumption is
                      correct.

                      Charles O'Connor
                      --- blkknighti@... wrote:

                      >
                      > Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the
                      > correct Psalm 10 of David, that
                      > the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2
                      > ... "For look, the
                      > wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows
                      > against the strings to shoot from the
                      > shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the
                      > previous Psalm refers
                      > directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the
                      > same tone simply continued in 10.
                      > Now while the document itself was produced in period
                      > it is highly unlikely
                      > that it can be considered evidentiary of back
                      > quivers being use in period in
                      > that geographical location. The illustration it
                      > seems depicts a biblical passage
                      > and I would suspect the artist to his license to
                      > capture the passage in
                      > biblical period form, including the dress,
                      > especially the bow, arrows and of course
                      > the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much
                      > like a previous discussion of
                      > the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
                      > I think we can hardly consider this a period
                      > reference for the back quiver.
                      > Thanks again for posting those pictures. After
                      > reading Psalms envolved I'd
                      > actually like to see the whole of the first from the
                      > original Utrecht Psalter.
                      > Another time maybe.
                      >
                      > Richard
                      >
                      > In a message dated 12/6/04 10:38:20 PM,
                      > eastarch@... writes:
                      >
                      >
                      > > Richard,
                      > >
                      > > These came from a book. The Utrecht Pslater in
                      > Medieval art: Picturing the
                      > > Psalms of David.� The 2 pictures are
                      > representations of the 10th Psalm.
                      > > Beyond that I am not sure of what the illustration
                      > depicts. I am not up on
                      > > my Psalms. The first picture is from the Utrecht
                      > psalter, the second
                      > > picture is from the Paris psalter. It is probably
                      > drawn after the artist
                      > > saw the Utrecht. The date of the Paris Psalter is
                      > estimated at 1180-1200.
                      > > Therefore it is considered to be a copy of the
                      > first. The book goes on the
                      > > list the Harley Psalter and the Eadwine Psalter as
                      > other English copies of
                      > > the original Utrecht Psalter.
                      > >
                      > > Nest



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                    • Carolus von Eulenhorst
                      On the other hand, many art works from period use local contemporary dress and fashion to depict biblical themes and so are excellent sources of documentation.
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 8, 2004
                        On the other hand, many art works from period use local contemporary dress
                        and fashion to depict biblical themes and so are excellent sources of
                        documentation. It was difficult for many period artists to
                        conceptualize historical dress as they didn't have the type of knowledge
                        base current artists have. It will take much more research, however

                        Carolus

                        .At 10:43 PM 12/6/2004, you wrote:

                        >Thank you Nest. It seems, if I have found the correct Psalm 10 of David, that
                        >the passage it may illustrate is actually Psalm 11:2 ... "For look, the
                        >wicked bend their bows; they set their arrows against the strings to shoot
                        >from the
                        >shadows at the upright in heart." Nothing in the previous Psalm refers
                        >directly to bows or arrows or such but is of the same tone simply
                        >continued in 10.
                        >Now while the document itself was produced in period it is highly unlikely
                        >that it can be considered evidentiary of back quivers being use in period in
                        >that geographical location. The illustration it seems depicts a biblical
                        >passage
                        >and I would suspect the artist to his license to capture the passage in
                        >biblical period form, including the dress, especially the bow, arrows and
                        >of course
                        >the quiver in "mixed metaphor" if you will. Much like a previous
                        >discussion of
                        >the Queens portrait depicting her as Diana.
                        >I think we can hardly consider this a period reference for the back quiver.
                        >Thanks again for posting those pictures. After reading Psalms envolved I'd
                        >actually like to see the whole of the first from the original Utrecht
                        >Psalter.
                        >Another time maybe.
                        >
                        >Richard
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