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Die Armbrust, Harmuth

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  • B K
    Greetings to the list, I have a question that I hope some of you on the list can help me with. I have been looking into making a period crossbow for myself. At
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 29, 2004
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      Greetings to the list,

      I have a question that I hope some of you on the list can help me with. I have been looking into making a period crossbow for myself. At the suggestion of several helpful folks on the list I checked out "The Crossbow" by Sir Payne-Gallwey and today after a bit of a wait "Die Armbrust" finally arrived via interlibrary loan.

      I have looked thru the pictures, photos, and illustrations from "Die Armbrust", and it seems that about 95% of them are directly out of the Sir Payne-Gallwey book. Also, near the end of "Die Armbrust" there is a 2 page Summary in english. THe first line of which says '"Die Armbrust' is not mearly a translation of 'The Crossbow' but, in a sense, a re-writing and continuation of Sir Ralph-Gallwey's book'. So, can someone familar with the book tell me what sections I should be turning my attention to for additional information. Judging by the pictures alone it seems to be just a general translation. I don't read German myself, but I have a friend who has kindly offered to spend an afternoon with me and do 'some' translation. This being the case, I would like to know where to best direct the translation effort she has kindly donated.

      One comment that I had seen before in my research was that the drawings of the internal workings of the crossbow presented in Sir Payne-Gallweys work were not to be trusted, and that the depictions in Harmuth's work were more accurate. However on first glance they seem to be the same in both books.

      Any further insight, commentary, or direction is greatly appreciated.

      yis,
      Andronikos Tzangares ho Philosophos


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Scott Jaqua
      ... In nut shell, the concept that Harmuth s work is a mere translation is false. At the time of Harmuth s writing, Payne-Gallwey was the only so called
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 30, 2004
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        B K wrote:

        >(snip)
        >One comment that I had seen before in my research was that the drawings of the internal workings of the crossbow presented in Sir Payne-Gallweys work were not to be trusted, and that the depictions in Harmuth's work were more accurate. However on first glance they seem to be the same in both books.
        >
        >Any further insight, commentary, or direction is greatly appreciated.
        >
        >
        In nut shell, the concept that Harmuth's work is a mere translation is
        false. At the time of Harmuth's writing, Payne-Gallwey was the only so
        called source. So it makes sense that Harmuth would build the structure
        of his work around that of Payne-Gallwey. However it is more of a
        commentary on Payne-Gallwey then a translation.

        If you check the sections on the inner workings you should find x rays
        of period crossbows in Harmuth. It is these x rays that give lie to
        Payne-Gallwey's illustrations.

        Also since Harmuth's work was published, the Royal Armouries have
        published a pamphlet and more complete book on the subject. However, the
        field of true in depth research of period crossbows is still very young.
        Payne-Gallwey's, misguided Victorian work was accepted as fact until the
        last half of the last century.

        Njall
      • J. Hughes
        The book the Royal Armories put out is a translation of Josef Alm from the 1920s. Given the enormous amount of information in monographs and secondary
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 30, 2004
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          The book the Royal Armories put out is a translation
          of Josef Alm from the 1920s. Given the enormous amount
          of information in monographs and secondary literature
          there is a real need for a survey history of the
          crossbow. I am working on filling the void...

          Charles O'Connor
          --- Scott Jaqua <jaqua@...> wrote:

          >
          > B K wrote:
          >
          > >(snip)
          > >One comment that I had seen before in my research
          > was that the drawings of the internal workings of
          > the crossbow presented in Sir Payne-Gallweys work
          > were not to be trusted, and that the depictions in
          > Harmuth's work were more accurate. However on first
          > glance they seem to be the same in both books.
          > >
          > >Any further insight, commentary, or direction is
          > greatly appreciated.
          > >
          > >
          > In nut shell, the concept that Harmuth's work is a
          > mere translation is
          > false. At the time of Harmuth's writing,
          > Payne-Gallwey was the only so
          > called source. So it makes sense that Harmuth would
          > build the structure
          > of his work around that of Payne-Gallwey. However it
          > is more of a
          > commentary on Payne-Gallwey then a translation.
          >
          > If you check the sections on the inner workings you
          > should find x rays
          > of period crossbows in Harmuth. It is these x rays
          > that give lie to
          > Payne-Gallwey's illustrations.
          >
          > Also since Harmuth's work was published, the Royal
          > Armouries have
          > published a pamphlet and more complete book on the
          > subject. However, the
          > field of true in depth research of period crossbows
          > is still very young.
          > Payne-Gallwey's, misguided Victorian work was
          > accepted as fact until the
          > last half of the last century.
          >
          > Njall




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        • James Koch
          ... What he said. The name of one of the books published by the Royal Armories is European Crossbows A Survey By Josef Alm Edited by GM Wilson. This deals
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 30, 2004
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            >
            >Also since Harmuth's work was published, the Royal Armouries have
            >published a pamphlet and more complete book on the subject. However, the
            >field of true in depth research of period crossbows is still very young.
            >Payne-Gallwey's, misguided Victorian work was accepted as fact until the
            >last half of the last century.
            >
            >Njall
            What he said. The name of one of the books published by the Royal Armories
            is "European Crossbows A Survey By Josef Alm" Edited by GM Wilson. This
            deals with much older crossbows than those illustrated in Payne-Gallwey's
            book. Many of the former examples are from archaeological digs, bogs,
            castle walls, & etc.
            >
            Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
          • Alberic
            Greetings: Speaking as someone who once spent a month trying to make Payne-Gallway s conception of a set trigger actually *work*.... He s OK for the outsides
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 30, 2004
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              Greetings:

              Speaking as someone who once spent a month trying to make
              Payne-Gallway's conception of a set trigger actually *work*....
              He's OK for the outsides of bows, assuming you have access to such
              everyday things as a local Liege spring maker, but don't trust him for
              a second when it comes to either the inner workings of crossbows and
              their parts, or to the exact reason why things might have been done a
              certain way. Near as I can tell, he looked at the outside of a number
              of bows, and based his conclusions on external examination only.

              Harmuth actually x-rayed period locks, so his mechanical information is
              vastly superior. Alm also has much more concrete grounding in the what
              and whyfors of crossbow construction.

              For whatever that all's worth.
              Alberic
            • B K
              Thank you to all of those who weighed in with there perspective. I will be doing more research and reading the books you recomended before starting my winter
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 2, 2004
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                Thank you to all of those who weighed in with there perspective. I will be
                doing more research and reading the books you recomended before starting my
                winter project of crossbow construction.

                yis,
                Andronikos
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