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Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice

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  • Brad Boda d'Aylward
    Random arrow speeds??? Something few people consider. Are you using snap nocks or speed nocks?? Snap nocks need pressure to push the back of the arrow onto
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
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      Random arrow speeds???

      Something few people consider. Are you using 'snap' nocks or 'speed' nocks??

      Snap nocks need pressure to push the back of the arrow onto the string with
      a slight click. Unless these particular type of nocks have been filed to
      grasp the string with the exact same pressure, one arrow will fly freely
      while the next will experience a 'braking' effect as the snap nock hangs on
      to the string a second longer than the others.

      I always suggest speed nocks (there's another name for them) as they will be
      more consistant in the point which they allow the arrow to leave the string.

      Everything else being consistant, this should eliminate some of the arrows
      dropping sooner than others.

      Brad

      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice


      >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
      business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
      >
      >
      >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out
      how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I
      get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
      >
      >
      >Thanks as always for all the great advice!
      >Alestra
      >
    • Nest verch Tangwistel
      What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it is not so much a problem with the archer at all but with the equipment. I have had supposedly
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
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        What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it is not
        so much a problem with the archer at all but with the equipment. I have
        had supposedly professionally made arrows which differed in weight as much
        as 150 grains between them, and 20 pounds spine weight. That can add a lot
        of randomness to shots. Especially at longer distances.

        Nest
        --- Brad Boda d'Aylward <bradb@...> wrote:

        > Random arrow speeds???
        >




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      • Guy Taylor
        This is where getting your arrows from a reputable maker who states that his or her arrows are weight matched and hand spined shows up. Keep in mind that not
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
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          This is where getting your arrows from a reputable maker who states
          that his or her arrows are weight matched and hand spined shows up.

          Keep in mind that not everyone matches the arrows they sell. If
          they do not say that they are matched, you got exactly what you
          payed for. If you purchased them from F/S Archery in California,
          you got exactly what you payed for, but not what they advertise.

          Guy

          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Nest verch Tangwistel
          <eastarch@y...> wrote:
          > What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it
          >is not so much a problem with the archer at all but with the
          >equipment. I have had supposedly professionally made arrows which
          >differed in weight as much as 150 grains between them, and 20
          >pounds spine weight. That can add a lot of randomness to shots.
          >Especially at longer distances.
          >
          > Nest
        • Carl West
          ... I anchor similarly, forefinger behind upper canine, at the gum. String in the finger joints. Thumb and little finger touching. To release, I press the the
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 8, 2004
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            Sharon Macielinski wrote:

            > ... I anchor my middle finger in
            > corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
            > stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
            > release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
            > to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
            > told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
            > you don't pluck!

            I anchor similarly, forefinger behind upper canine, at the gum. String
            in the finger joints. Thumb and little finger touching. To release, I
            press the the hand against the face. This straightens the finger tips,
            away goes the arrow. No chance to pluck. Gotta keep the mustache trimmed
            though. Works better with stronger bows.



            -- Fritz

            Carl West
            mailto:carl.west@...
            http://carl.west.home.comcast.net
          • Sharon Macielinski
            Hi. Thanks for the comments. Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows hit better, YES! Been working with my random bow (a self-bow
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 8, 2004
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              Hi. Thanks for the comments.

              Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows hit better, YES!

              Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn shelf) for another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a couple times by the bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it BITES (slaps above the brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace height) the cherry/hickory is very sensitive to all the humidity (I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is part of the problem. I get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it bites, I've had to use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my shoulder to roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow reduces the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus the varied speeds!

              And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.

              I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to be for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20# recurve bow!

              Wish me luck!
              Alestra
              PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also had same prob.

              John Rossignol <giguette@...> wrote:
              Sharon Macielinski wrote:

              >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
              >
              >

              Actually, timed shoots make a lot of sense, if you think historically.
              Imagine the enemy charging your firing line, and they are going to
              reach you in a few seconds unless you shoot them all...

              As far as the 20/30/40-yard targets...well, you have to learn to walk
              before you can run. Actually, one of the best things you can do as a
              beginner is to not worry about aiming at a target at all, but just
              practice your draw, anchor, and release.

              >Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the target accurately.
              >

              If you are really only drawing 26 pounds, then the politest way I can
              put this is to say that your instructor is not being very realistic.
              Reaching the target is not the same thing as hitting it, and I have
              seen a lot of arrows from weak bows simply bounce off the hay bales at
              30 and 40 yards even when they did hit them. See my comments below your
              bottom paragraph.

              >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
              >

              Aiming high above the target is tough, because you seldom have anything
              handy up in the sky to use as an aiming point, and it's easy to lose
              track of where the target is. What many archers do in this situation is
              to use an anchor point on their chest or stomach -- a technique commonly
              used in clout shooting. This allows them to sight over the tip of a
              steeply-angled arrow without having to look way up into the sky.
              Exactly how high to aim is something you will have to work out by trial
              and error, since every bow and person is different.

              If you are truly getting *random* arrow speeds, then I suspect that your
              draw, anchor, and release are not as consistent as you think. A high
              degree of consistency in these actions is the very foundation of good
              archery, and generally takes years of practice to achieve. Even very
              small variations can cause quite an effect on the flight of an arrow.

              The only other random factors affecting arrow speed would be the wind,
              and maybe disintegrating equipment (unlikely). A non-random factor
              could be mismatched arrows, especially with differences in spine and/or
              fletching. I say non-random because, if all other factors are uniform,
              the same arrow should fly approximately the same every time you shoot
              it. Unless the wind is gusting, though, the greatest source of
              randomness is the archer.

              >Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target?
              >

              You are entirely correct in thinking that higher arrow velocity should
              increase your accuracy, and for two main reasons.

              The first is that a faster arrow can reach a given target with a flatter
              trajectory than can a slower arrow ( I assume that is what you mean by
              "an arrow that flies straight"). The advantage here is that, as you
              have noted, it makes aiming much easier -- no aiming up in the sky to
              reach targets that are only 40 yards away.

              The second is that a faster arrow will be less affected by wind. There
              are three aspects of this. 1) Since the faster arrow will be in the air
              for a shorter time before reaching the target, there is less time for
              the prevailing wind to act upon it. 2) Since it will be in the air for
              a shorter time, there is less chance that it will be affected by a
              *change* in the wind that occurs while it is in flight. We can learn to
              compensate for steady wind, but gusts and lulls are unpredictable. 3)
              An arrow shot in a high arc is often exposed to wind of greater force
              and different direction that the wind closer to the ground.

              Except for the wind factor, I can't think of anything that would make a
              faster arrow inherently more consistent than a slower one.
              Inconsistency is almost always due to the archer.

              When trying to get your arrows to fly faster, it is important to
              remember that a heavier draw weight is only one contributing factor.
              Another is the efficiency of the bow -- how fast it throws the arrow
              per pound of draw weight. Some bow designs are more efficient than
              others, and within any particular design some individual bows are more
              efficient than others because of the materials and craftsmanship
              involved. If you can, try some different types of bow. Some of the
              recurved designs are not only more efficient than a longbow, but are
              actually much easier to draw at the same poundage.

              Another thing you can do is to use an anchor point which gives you a
              longer draw length, i.e. to your cheek or your ear instead of your chin.
              Traditional Japanese archers draw all the way to the shoulder. A
              longer draw generally increases the effective draw weight of a bow.

              Arrow weight also has an effect on arrow velocity, but it can be pro or
              con according to distance and shooting conditions. The most important
              thing, as far as weight, is that your arrows all be the same.

              All this being said, it is still very important to not use a bow that is
              too heavy for you *right now*. You can injure yourself, and you can
              develop very bad form and habits. Most of us wish we could shoot
              heavier bows, but we have to let reality be our guide. Your muscles
              will gain strength fairly rapidly if you draw your bow a lot, but it
              doesn't do to anticipate too much. The best rule of thumb that I have
              heard for choosing a good draw weight is one posted on this list by
              Carolus Eulenhorst, so I will quote him here: "As to poundage, the best
              thing is to go to practice and try pulling different bows. Find a weight
              you can just hold at full draw for ten seconds. if you can hold longer
              the you will outgrow the bow quickly and if you can't hold that long the
              bow is too heavy for you (overbowed)."

              If you are serious about archery, please believe me that in the early
              stages it is actually far more important for you to work on your draw,
              anchor, and release than it is to hit 40-yard targets -- or any targets,
              for that matter. And you should do it with a bow that you can draw
              easily. I know that doesn't sound very exciting, but it will really pay
              off.

              >It's like a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
              >
              >
              Sorry, I don't understand this comment.

              John




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            • Carolus Eulenhorst
              Try this and see if it doesn t help the bite. Take your normal stance at the line, extend your bow arm toward the target, turn the arm so that the elbow
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                Try this and see if it doesn't help the bite. Take your normal stance at
                the line, extend your bow arm toward the target, turn the arm so that the
                elbow points horizontal (when the elbow is flexed the arm should move in
                a plane parallel with the ground), and then rotate the wrist to put the
                hand at a slight angle down on the outside of the arm. It will probably
                feel really awkward at first and may even hurt a little but you will get
                used to it. Then grasp the bow lightly and draw it with your arm
                returning to this position at full draw. This will move the bulk of your
                forearm muscle out of the way of the string, solidify the shoulder, and
                give a better draw.
                Carolus

                On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Sharon Macielinski
                <ariel_elronds_daughter@...> writes:
                > Hi. Thanks for the comments.
                >
                > Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows
                > hit better, YES!
                >
                > Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn
                > shelf) for another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a
                > couple times by the bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it
                > BITES (slaps above the brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace
                > height) the cherry/hickory is very sensitive to all the humidity
                > (I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is part of the problem. I
                > get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it bites, I've had to
                > use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my shoulder to
                > roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow reduces
                > the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been
                > bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus
                > the varied speeds!
                >
                > And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.
                >
                > I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to
                > be for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20#
                > recurve bow!
                >
                > Wish me luck!
                > Alestra
                > PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also
                > had same prob.

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              • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                Greetings, The common complaint about having the string slap on release has been covered many times here, and many have gone into great detail describing the
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                  Greetings,
                  The common complaint about having the string slap on release has
                  been covered many times here, and many have gone into great detail
                  describing the rotation of a woman's arm as oppoesed to a man's,
                  yadayada......
                  One way that will cure this problem for good is to learn how to
                  hold the longbow the right way; it's the way I was taught back in the
                  days that rocks were still soft. As you grip the longbow, the second
                  knuckle down on the index finger should line up directly with the second
                  knuckle of the thumb, parallel to the path of the arrow shaft . You use
                  this as a way of pointing at the target...get used to this feeling. To
                  do this, you will not be completely straightening and locking your bow
                  arm and will always have a soft elbow joint (excellent for follow
                  through, kind of like having a completely natural built-in stabilizer
                  using only that which the good Lord gave you when you
                  were born ;-) ) Voila! No more bowstring slaps.
                  BTW I always wear a bracer anyway because nocks can break and
                  things can always happen. Better safe than sorry. I shoot a very heavy
                  draw weight bow, and it can hurt a whole lot with a light draw weight
                  bow.
                  My two pense,
                  -Geoffrei
                • John Rossignol
                  I hope Carolus advice helps you out, Alestra. I m sure his idea is good, I m just having a little trouble visualizing what he means about the wrist. By the
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                    I hope Carolus' advice helps you out, Alestra. I'm sure his idea is
                    good, I'm just having a little trouble visualizing what he means about
                    the wrist.

                    By the way, you can buy a bracer that should cover the whole "danger
                    zone" of your bow arm. I bought one like that to lend people when I am
                    introducing them to archery. It is 13" long, black leather with what
                    feels like tough plastic rods sewn inside. It fastens with elastic and
                    velcro, and it bends at the elbow. It's not "period", of course, but it
                    is not obtrusive, and when your arm is getting massacred, who cares,
                    anyhow? I didn't get it at a "traditional archery" store -- there
                    aren't any right around where I live, and I needed this bracer in a
                    hurry. It was actually just a lucky find in amongst the ultra-modern
                    and camouflage stuff, but it has worked out pretty well. Unfortunately
                    I don't remember the brand name. And you know, there is no law against
                    padding the inside of your bracer, either (isn't that why sleeves were
                    invented?)

                    Of course, super-bracers and extra padding should only be stop-gap
                    measures, to use until you can solve the problem with good technique and
                    compatible equipment. But in the meantime -- hey, they can help you
                    have fun and shoot the bow without killing yourself.

                    That twisted limb on your bow is almost certainly causing some of your
                    problems. By the way, 7" is not all that high a brace height, and that
                    does make it easier to slap your arm with the string. My first bow has
                    a brace height just over 7" with the strings I used, and I got some
                    really terrific bruises before I got a decent bracer and, more
                    importantly, learned to hold my arm correctly. Of course, if you used a
                    shorter string to get a higher (and "safer") brace height, that would
                    shorten your power stroke, and you certainly don't want do that with
                    such a light bow.

                    And yes, Good Luck in your competition, but remember -- however it goes,
                    the object is always to Have Fun. I know we can lose sight of that
                    sometimes, but it should always be our goal. So if your equipment
                    really spoils this one for you, at least use it as an opportunity to lay
                    the foundation for Having Fun in the future: by getting some experience
                    with other bows. After a competition is over, the Range Marshal will
                    usually open the range for practice. If there are archers there with
                    bows in your general strength range, ask if you can try shooting them.
                    Most archers I have met are very generous about this. See if other
                    bows give you the same problems as your bow. Compare the feel of
                    different bows as you draw and release, and try to find what might be a
                    better draw weight for you. You might also find a particular design or
                    brand that you especially like.

                    Good luck. I hope some of that helps.

                    John


                    Carolus Eulenhorst wrote:

                    >Try this and see if it doesn't help the bite. Take your normal stance at
                    >the line, extend your bow arm toward the target, turn the arm so that the
                    >elbow points horizontal (when the elbow is flexed the arm should move in
                    >a plane parallel with the ground), and then rotate the wrist to put the
                    >hand at a slight angle down on the outside of the arm. It will probably
                    >feel really awkward at first and may even hurt a little but you will get
                    >used to it. Then grasp the bow lightly and draw it with your arm
                    >returning to this position at full draw. This will move the bulk of your
                    >forearm muscle out of the way of the string, solidify the shoulder, and
                    >give a better draw.
                    >Carolus
                    >
                    >On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Sharon Macielinski
                    ><ariel_elronds_daughter@...> writes:
                    >
                    >
                    >>Hi. Thanks for the comments.
                    >>
                    >>Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows
                    >>hit better, YES!
                    >>
                    >>Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn
                    >>shelf) for another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a
                    >>couple times by the bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it
                    >>BITES (slaps above the brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace
                    >>height) the cherry/hickory is very sensitive to all the humidity
                    >>(I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is part of the problem. I
                    >>get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it bites, I've had to
                    >>use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my shoulder to
                    >>roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow reduces
                    >>the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been
                    >>bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus
                    >>the varied speeds!
                    >>
                    >>And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.
                    >>
                    >>I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to
                    >>be for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20#
                    >>recurve bow!
                    >>
                    >>Wish me luck!
                    >>Alestra
                    >>PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also
                    >>had same prob.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Carolus Eulenhorst
                    It is what is referred to as a high wrist position. A low wrist position has the hand vertical with the bow resting heavily on the fleshy part of the hand
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                      It is what is referred to as a high wrist position. A low wrist position
                      has the hand vertical with the bow resting heavily on the fleshy part of
                      the hand below the thumb. Many people use this position, especially with
                      long bow. The high wrist moves the bow to the web of the thumb removing
                      much of the pressure from the hand. It makes the bow "float" in the
                      grip, eliminates much tendency to torque it, and lets the arm shift
                      slightly out of the path of the string. If you hold your arm out and
                      pronate the elbow (the first step I mentioned) you will find your hand
                      naturally tends to take a position where the palm is parallel with the
                      ground. This is too high. Rotate the little finger back down to a
                      comfortable position (45 to 60 degrees down) without changing the elbow
                      position and everything should drop into place.

                      I have a virtually identical bracer. It was made by Saunders. There are
                      others out there, too.
                      Carolus

                      On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:34:11 -0700 John Rossignol <giguette@...>
                      writes:
                      > I hope Carolus' advice helps you out, Alestra. I'm sure his idea is
                      >
                      > good, I'm just having a little trouble visualizing what he means
                      > about
                      > the wrist.
                      >
                      > By the way, you can buy a bracer that should cover the whole "danger
                      >
                      > zone" of your bow arm. I bought one like that to lend people when I
                      > am
                      > introducing them to archery. It is 13" long, black leather with
                      > what
                      > feels like tough plastic rods sewn inside. It fastens with elastic
                      > and
                      > velcro, and it bends at the elbow. It's not "period", of course,
                      > but it
                      > is not obtrusive, and when your arm is getting massacred, who cares,
                      >
                      > anyhow? I didn't get it at a "traditional archery" store -- there
                      > aren't any right around where I live, and I needed this bracer in a
                      >
                      > hurry. It was actually just a lucky find in amongst the
                      > ultra-modern
                      > and camouflage stuff, but it has worked out pretty well.
                      > Unfortunately
                      > I don't remember the brand name. And you know, there is no law
                      > against
                      > padding the inside of your bracer, either (isn't that why sleeves
                      > were
                      > invented?)
                      >
                      > Of course, super-bracers and extra padding should only be stop-gap
                      > measures, to use until you can solve the problem with good technique
                      > and
                      > compatible equipment. But in the meantime -- hey, they can help you
                      >
                      > have fun and shoot the bow without killing yourself.
                      >
                      > That twisted limb on your bow is almost certainly causing some of
                      > your
                      > problems. By the way, 7" is not all that high a brace height, and
                      > that
                      > does make it easier to slap your arm with the string. My first bow
                      > has
                      > a brace height just over 7" with the strings I used, and I got some
                      >
                      > really terrific bruises before I got a decent bracer and, more
                      > importantly, learned to hold my arm correctly. Of course, if you
                      > used a
                      > shorter string to get a higher (and "safer") brace height, that
                      > would
                      > orten your power stroke, and you certainly don't want do that with
                      > such a light bow.
                      >
                      > And yes, Good Luck in your competition, but remember -- however it
                      > goes,
                      > the object is always to Have Fun. I know we can lose sight of that
                      >
                      > sometimes, but it should always be our goal. So if your equipment
                      > really spoils this one for you, at least use it as an opportunity to
                      > lay
                      > the foundation for Having Fun in the future: by getting some
                      > experience
                      > with other bows. After a competition is over, the Range Marshal
                      > will
                      > usually open the range for practice. If there are archers there
                      > with
                      > bows in your general strength range, ask if you can try shooting
                      > them.
                      > Most archers I have met are very generous about this. See if other
                      >
                      > bows give you the same problems as your bow. Compare the feel of
                      > different bows as you draw and release, and try to find what might
                      > be a
                      > better draw weight for you. You might also find a particular design
                      > or
                      > brand that you especially like.
                      >
                      > Good luck. I hope some of that helps.
                      >
                      > John

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                    • John Rossignol
                      Oh, yes, thanks. I think I see what you mean. John
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                        Oh, yes, thanks. I think I see what you mean.

                        John

                        Carolus Eulenhorst wrote:

                        >It is what is referred to as a high wrist position. A low wrist position
                        >has the hand vertical with the bow resting heavily on the fleshy part of
                        >the hand below the thumb. Many people use this position, especially with
                        >long bow. The high wrist moves the bow to the web of the thumb removing
                        >much of the pressure from the hand. It makes the bow "float" in the
                        >grip, eliminates much tendency to torque it, and lets the arm shift
                        >slightly out of the path of the string. If you hold your arm out and
                        >pronate the elbow (the first step I mentioned) you will find your hand
                        >naturally tends to take a position where the palm is parallel with the
                        >ground. This is too high. Rotate the little finger back down to a
                        >comfortable position (45 to 60 degrees down) without changing the elbow
                        >position and everything should drop into place.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                        A low poundage(under 50LB) wood longbow is the hardest bow to shoot well. It bits, kicks, and turns weak if held too long. It will be extremly fustrating to
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                          A low poundage(under 50LB) wood longbow is the hardest bow to shoot well. It
                          bits, kicks, and turns weak if held too long. It will be extremly fustrating
                          to get it to shoot well but if you can master it all other bows will be easy
                          to shoot by comparison. Being that it is a selfwood/laminated wood bow and
                          that you are "not drawing to a consistent bend" that is the two main causes
                          for varying arrows speeds. Have fun shooting. The people who know bows will
                          know how hard you are working to get your bow to shoot.

                          James Cunningham

                          P.S. Get a bracer big enough to protect your arm.
                          The twist in the limb is not a big thing in a longbow... in a recurve...
                          could be.

                          > Hi. Thanks for the comments.
                          >
                          > Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows hit
                          better, YES!
                          >
                          > Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn shelf) for
                          another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a couple times by the
                          bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it BITES (slaps above the
                          brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace height) the cherry/hickory is very
                          sensitive to all the humidity (I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is
                          part of the problem. I get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it
                          bites, I've had to use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my
                          shoulder to roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow
                          reduces the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been
                          bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus the
                          varied speeds!
                          >
                          > And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.
                          >
                          > I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to be
                          for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20# recurve bow!
                          >
                          > Wish me luck!
                          > Alestra
                          > PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also had
                          same prob.
                          >
                          > John Rossignol <giguette@...> wrote:
                          > Sharon Macielinski wrote:
                          >
                          > >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
                          business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > Actually, timed shoots make a lot of sense, if you think historically.
                          > Imagine the enemy charging your firing line, and they are going to
                          > reach you in a few seconds unless you shoot them all...
                          >
                          > As far as the 20/30/40-yard targets...well, you have to learn to walk
                          > before you can run. Actually, one of the best things you can do as a
                          > beginner is to not worry about aiming at a target at all, but just
                          > practice your draw, anchor, and release.
                          >
                          > >Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell
                          me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting
                          30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow
                          and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the
                          target accurately.
                          > >
                          >
                          > If you are really only drawing 26 pounds, then the politest way I can
                          > put this is to say that your instructor is not being very realistic.
                          > Reaching the target is not the same thing as hitting it, and I have
                          > seen a lot of arrows from weak bows simply bounce off the hay bales at
                          > 30 and 40 yards even when they did hit them. See my comments below your
                          > bottom paragraph.
                          >
                          > >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out
                          how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I
                          get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                          > >
                          >
                          > Aiming high above the target is tough, because you seldom have anything
                          > handy up in the sky to use as an aiming point, and it's easy to lose
                          > track of where the target is. What many archers do in this situation is
                          > to use an anchor point on their chest or stomach -- a technique commonly
                          > used in clout shooting. This allows them to sight over the tip of a
                          > steeply-angled arrow without having to look way up into the sky.
                          > Exactly how high to aim is something you will have to work out by trial
                          > and error, since every bow and person is different.
                          >
                          > If you are truly getting *random* arrow speeds, then I suspect that your
                          > draw, anchor, and release are not as consistent as you think. A high
                          > degree of consistency in these actions is the very foundation of good
                          > archery, and generally takes years of practice to achieve. Even very
                          > small variations can cause quite an effect on the flight of an arrow.
                          >
                          > The only other random factors affecting arrow speed would be the wind,
                          > and maybe disintegrating equipment (unlikely). A non-random factor
                          > could be mismatched arrows, especially with differences in spine and/or
                          > fletching. I say non-random because, if all other factors are uniform,
                          > the same arrow should fly approximately the same every time you shoot
                          > it. Unless the wind is gusting, though, the greatest source of
                          > randomness is the archer.
                          >
                          > >Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
                          poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent
                          than one that has to arc to hit a target?
                          > >
                          >
                          > You are entirely correct in thinking that higher arrow velocity should
                          > increase your accuracy, and for two main reasons.
                          >
                          > The first is that a faster arrow can reach a given target with a flatter
                          > trajectory than can a slower arrow ( I assume that is what you mean by
                          > "an arrow that flies straight"). The advantage here is that, as you
                          > have noted, it makes aiming much easier -- no aiming up in the sky to
                          > reach targets that are only 40 yards away.
                          >
                          > The second is that a faster arrow will be less affected by wind. There
                          > are three aspects of this. 1) Since the faster arrow will be in the air
                          > for a shorter time before reaching the target, there is less time for
                          > the prevailing wind to act upon it. 2) Since it will be in the air for
                          > a shorter time, there is less chance that it will be affected by a
                          > *change* in the wind that occurs while it is in flight. We can learn to
                          > compensate for steady wind, but gusts and lulls are unpredictable. 3)
                          > An arrow shot in a high arc is often exposed to wind of greater force
                          > and different direction that the wind closer to the ground.
                          >
                          > Except for the wind factor, I can't think of anything that would make a
                          > faster arrow inherently more consistent than a slower one.
                          > Inconsistency is almost always due to the archer.
                          >
                          > When trying to get your arrows to fly faster, it is important to
                          > remember that a heavier draw weight is only one contributing factor.
                          > Another is the efficiency of the bow -- how fast it throws the arrow
                          > per pound of draw weight. Some bow designs are more efficient than
                          > others, and within any particular design some individual bows are more
                          > efficient than others because of the materials and craftsmanship
                          > involved. If you can, try some different types of bow. Some of the
                          > recurved designs are not only more efficient than a longbow, but are
                          > actually much easier to draw at the same poundage.
                          >
                          > Another thing you can do is to use an anchor point which gives you a
                          > longer draw length, i.e. to your cheek or your ear instead of your chin.
                          > Traditional Japanese archers draw all the way to the shoulder. A
                          > longer draw generally increases the effective draw weight of a bow.
                          >
                          > Arrow weight also has an effect on arrow velocity, but it can be pro or
                          > con according to distance and shooting conditions. The most important
                          > thing, as far as weight, is that your arrows all be the same.
                          >
                          > All this being said, it is still very important to not use a bow that is
                          > too heavy for you *right now*. You can injure yourself, and you can
                          > develop very bad form and habits. Most of us wish we could shoot
                          > heavier bows, but we have to let reality be our guide. Your muscles
                          > will gain strength fairly rapidly if you draw your bow a lot, but it
                          > doesn't do to anticipate too much. The best rule of thumb that I have
                          > heard for choosing a good draw weight is one posted on this list by
                          > Carolus Eulenhorst, so I will quote him here: "As to poundage, the best
                          > thing is to go to practice and try pulling different bows. Find a weight
                          > you can just hold at full draw for ten seconds. if you can hold longer
                          > the you will outgrow the bow quickly and if you can't hold that long the
                          > bow is too heavy for you (overbowed)."
                          >
                          > If you are serious about archery, please believe me that in the early
                          > stages it is actually far more important for you to work on your draw,
                          > anchor, and release than it is to hit 40-yard targets -- or any targets,
                          > for that matter. And you should do it with a bow that you can draw
                          > easily. I know that doesn't sound very exciting, but it will really pay
                          > off.
                          >
                          > >It's like a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                          > >
                          > >
                          > Sorry, I don't understand this comment.
                          >
                          > John
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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