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Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice

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  • Dan Scheid
    ... that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and am
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
      > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell me
      that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30
      and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and
      am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the
      target accurately.
      > > Alestra
      >
      he is right after watching the Olympics with them shooting 40# Bow at 70
      meters . your 35 should hit. But I use a 60# never could work the arch thing
      Damales
    • Scott Jaqua
      There is no reason that a 26lb bow should not be able to hit and stick into a target at 40 yards. (unless your target is unreasonably dense). I had a 22lb bow
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
        There is no reason that a 26lb bow should not be able to hit and stick
        into a target at 40 yards. (unless your target is unreasonably dense). I
        had a 22lb bow that I used to lend out to left handed students and it
        did the job just fine.

        First off heed your coach and the majority here. Don't go to a heavy bow
        yet. This is a great time to practice consistent form. Wait until you
        are consistent with this bow before you add more weight to the equation.

        Others have spoken of your anchor and release. And these are key to
        getting the maximum consistent level of energy out of your bow.

        However, as distance increases, there is another element of your form
        that gains in importance. And that is follow through. A minor follow
        through error a short distance is greatly magnified as the distance
        increases. In short you need the bow to remain a steady launch platform
        until the arrow clears the rest. If the arrow rest falls away from the
        arrow too quickly, then the arrow will fall of as well.

        The best thing you can do is slightly exaggerate the follow through.
        Hold your form for a few seconds after the release before you relax.
        This is one case of too much is better then not enough.

        And on a final note: lack of a proper follow through is perhaps the
        number one error I see in even the most experienced SCA archers. (that
        and a nasty pluck on release that I have (been working on it for 26
        years, still it comes back after any lay off between practices))

        Njall
      • Nest verch Tangwistel
        ... Why don t the timed ends make sense? ... The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25 pounds. The only problem I have seen is with the really light
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
          > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
          > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!

          Why don't the timed ends make sense?

          >
          > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell
          > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems
          > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a
          > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in
          > order to hit the target accurately.

          The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25 pounds. The only problem I
          have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow hits the ceiling in out
          indoor range before you can get enough arc in the trajectory to reach the
          target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with a 20 pound bow at
          Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in the clout or the front
          wall. so it can be done.

          >
          > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring
          > out how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor
          > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
          >
          I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds like you are loosing
          critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing. A good follow through
          may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to me that you should
          never completely come to a halt when getting to your anchor point. Go back
          to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue pulling until you are
          ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand should continue moving
          back towards your shoulder after you have released. If your hand sometimes
          moves back towards the bow as you release you loose a great deal of speed.

          > Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
          > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more
          > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target? It's like
          > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....

          The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does help with shooting at
          unknown distances. The difference between elevation at fairly similar
          distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect on your distance
          estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I echo the worry about
          going to strong before getting your form down pat.

          >
          > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
          > Alestra

          Good luck and keep on shooting.

          Nest



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        • Nest verch Tangwistel
          ... Why don t the timed ends make sense? ... The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25 pounds. The only problem I have seen is with the really light
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
            > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
            > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!

            Why don't the timed ends make sense?

            >
            > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell
            > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems
            > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a
            > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in
            > order to hit the target accurately.

            The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25 pounds. The only problem I
            have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow hits the ceiling in out
            indoor range before you can get enough arc in the trajectory to reach the
            target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with a 20 pound bow at
            Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in the clout or the front
            wall. so it can be done.

            >
            > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring
            > out how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor
            > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
            >
            I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds like you are loosing
            critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing. A good follow through
            may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to me that you should
            never completely come to a halt when getting to your anchor point. Go back
            to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue pulling until you are
            ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand should continue moving
            back towards your shoulder after you have released. If your hand sometimes
            moves back towards the bow as you release you loose a great deal of speed.

            > Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
            > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more
            > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target? It's like
            > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....

            The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does help with shooting at
            unknown distances. The difference between elevation at fairly similar
            distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect on your distance
            estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I echo the worry about
            going to strong before getting your form down pat.

            >
            > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
            > Alestra

            Good luck and keep on shooting.

            Nest



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          • Sharon Macielinski
            Thanks for the info! Maybe I just hadn t been taught this type of release yet? I will have to ask... I was so happy that I stopped plucking! When I stopped
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
              Thanks for the info! Maybe I just hadn't been taught
              this type of release yet? I will have to ask... I was
              so happy that I stopped plucking! When I stopped
              plucking I was able to get so much more accurate at
              10-20 yard ranges. I anchor my middle finger in
              corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
              stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
              release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
              to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
              told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
              you don't pluck!

              I will try a faster release this afternoon, although I
              can only shoot at a 10-15 yard distance here... I
              should be able to tell if the arrows are flying faster
              though by how far they get stuck in the target! :)

              Thanks again... I like the baby powder cornstarch idea
              too.

              Cheers,
              Alestra


              --- Nest verch Tangwistel <eastarch@...> wrote:

              >
              > > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're
              > stuck with the 20/30/40
              > > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh
              > well!
              >
              > Why don't the timed ends make sense?
              >
              > >
              > > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my
              > instructor is trying to tell
              > > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should
              > have no problems
              > > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been
              > fussing because I wanted a
              > > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out
              > the "arc" thing in
              > > order to hit the target accurately.
              >
              > The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25
              > pounds. The only problem I
              > have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow
              > hits the ceiling in out
              > indoor range before you can get enough arc in the
              > trajectory to reach the
              > target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with
              > a 20 pound bow at
              > Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in
              > the clout or the front
              > wall. so it can be done.
              >
              > >
              > > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my
              > difficulty is figuring
              > > out how far above the target to aim... even with a
              > good anchor
              > > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY
              > HINTS?
              > >
              > I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds
              > like you are loosing
              > critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing.
              > A good follow through
              > may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to
              > me that you should
              > never completely come to a halt when getting to your
              > anchor point. Go back
              > to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue
              > pulling until you are
              > ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand
              > should continue moving
              > back towards your shoulder after you have released.
              > If your hand sometimes
              > moves back towards the bow as you release you loose
              > a great deal of speed.
              >
              > > Also, I don't believe that I would have no
              > advantage with a higher
              > > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight
              > more
              > > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to
              > hit a target? It's like
              > > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
              >
              > The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does
              > help with shooting at
              > unknown distances. The difference between elevation
              > at fairly similar
              > distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect
              > on your distance
              > estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I
              > echo the worry about
              > going to strong before getting your form down pat.
              >
              > >
              > > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
              > > Alestra
              >
              > Good luck and keep on shooting.
              >
              > Nest
              >
              >
              >
              > _______________________________
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            • Chad Wilson
              ... 20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well! ... tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Sharon Macielinski
                <ariel_elronds_daughter@y...> wrote:
                > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the
                20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                >
                > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to
                tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no
                problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because
                I wanted a heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out
                the "arc" thing in order to hit the target accurately.

                You need a way of gaining more arrow speed.

                One way is to decrease the overall weight of your arrows while still
                designing to fly in a balanced way. All of my bolts and arrows are
                untreated. I stopped putting finishing seal on them and it produced
                some much lighter arrows. You could go as far as buying 100 shafts
                and then weight them all after cutting them down to use only the
                lightest of the bunch, without sacrificing spine weight.

                Another way is to increase the power stroke. The power stroke is the
                part of the shooting process where the bow's string is pushing on the
                arrow. With your shorter draw, you are sacrificing much of your
                power stroke.

                I wonder if you switched to a lighter longbow so you can pull a
                longer arrow would help. As strange as it sounds, you could in
                theory shoot a 25# longbow using longer arrows and have it shoot
                faster than your 35# longbow with a shorter draw.

                When I shoot a handbow, my arrows are 29". And I use all 29" of the
                arrow.

                -Caedmon
              • Russ Sheldon
                Greetings, A couple of things to remember. 1) Without some kind of trigger release ( ie using just your hand ) everyone will pluck the string sometime. Even
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
                  Greetings,
                  A couple of things to remember.
                  1) Without some kind of trigger release ( ie using just your hand ) everyone
                  will pluck the string sometime. Even the best archer. Period.
                  2) There are more than one release method , static, active and what I call
                  open release. All have there pro's and con's and none of them are the be all
                  and end all of shooting. Use the one your most comfortable with.
                  Static is where you anchor your hand and just release your fingers.
                  I find that errors in your release using a static release can be magnified
                  by a lighter poundage bow. Also hard to get a nice fast release with the
                  string without a lot of practice. If you master this release though you will
                  get very good scores for all ranges of archery.
                  Active release requires you to anchor your hand and then pull and
                  release the string. I find that you get faster release with the string but
                  it is hard to get a consistent speed with the release for longer yardage
                  shots. Also easier to pluck using this method.
                  Open release ( may have other names ) has your hand follow the
                  release of the string for a few inches. Very hard to do right unless your
                  using really high poundage bows. Your hand just gets in the way and slows
                  down the release.
                  3) Be it a glove, finger tab, or just your fingers all must be inspected to
                  help better your release. A beat up grubby glove or finger tab can cause
                  your string to hang or not roll right on your release. These need to be
                  replaced when they begin to get worn. Trouble is they always seem to die
                  just as they get broken in just right. Sigh! As for your fingers, calluses
                  that will form may help protect your fingers from blisters but they may also
                  cause areas on your fingers to catch the string. You may have to smooth or
                  scrape these down periodically.
                  4) Do not expect to be shooting consistently for at least 4 to 6 months with
                  regular practice, some people are faster. Your muscles need to develop a
                  memory and I usually find that it takes some people that long for everything
                  to click. On a 60cm target I usually tell my students to be quite happy to
                  get all there arrows on the paper first. Also its better to get a nice tight
                  grouping even off the page consistently than have your arrows looking like
                  they were shot all over the place with a few in well scoring locations on
                  the target. The person with the tight group can eventually be taught to
                  change his aiming point and move the group onto the target thus netting
                  him/her a very nice score.

                  Lastly remember in all of this to Have fun.

                  Hope this helps.

                  Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Sharon Macielinski" <ariel_elronds_daughter@...>
                  To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:50 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice


                  >
                  > Thanks for the info! Maybe I just hadn't been taught
                  > this type of release yet? I will have to ask... I was
                  > so happy that I stopped plucking! When I stopped
                  > plucking I was able to get so much more accurate at
                  > 10-20 yard ranges. I anchor my middle finger in
                  > corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
                  > stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
                  > release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
                  > to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
                  > told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
                  > you don't pluck!
                  >
                  > I will try a faster release this afternoon, although I
                  > can only shoot at a 10-15 yard distance here... I
                  > should be able to tell if the arrows are flying faster
                  > though by how far they get stuck in the target! :)
                  >
                  > Thanks again... I like the baby powder cornstarch idea
                  > too.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Alestra
                  >
                  >
                  > --- Nest verch Tangwistel <eastarch@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're
                  > > stuck with the 20/30/40
                  > > > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh
                  > > well!
                  > >
                  > > Why don't the timed ends make sense?
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my
                  > > instructor is trying to tell
                  > > > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should
                  > > have no problems
                  > > > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been
                  > > fussing because I wanted a
                  > > > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out
                  > > the "arc" thing in
                  > > > order to hit the target accurately.
                  > >
                  > > The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25
                  > > pounds. The only problem I
                  > > have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow
                  > > hits the ceiling in out
                  > > indoor range before you can get enough arc in the
                  > > trajectory to reach the
                  > > target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with
                  > > a 20 pound bow at
                  > > Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in
                  > > the clout or the front
                  > > wall. so it can be done.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my
                  > > difficulty is figuring
                  > > > out how far above the target to aim... even with a
                  > > good anchor
                  > > > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY
                  > > HINTS?
                  > > >
                  > > I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds
                  > > like you are loosing
                  > > critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing.
                  > > A good follow through
                  > > may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to
                  > > me that you should
                  > > never completely come to a halt when getting to your
                  > > anchor point. Go back
                  > > to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue
                  > > pulling until you are
                  > > ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand
                  > > should continue moving
                  > > back towards your shoulder after you have released.
                  > > If your hand sometimes
                  > > moves back towards the bow as you release you loose
                  > > a great deal of speed.
                  > >
                  > > > Also, I don't believe that I would have no
                  > > advantage with a higher
                  > > > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight
                  > > more
                  > > > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to
                  > > hit a target? It's like
                  > > > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                  > >
                  > > The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does
                  > > help with shooting at
                  > > unknown distances. The difference between elevation
                  > > at fairly similar
                  > > distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect
                  > > on your distance
                  > > estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I
                  > > echo the worry about
                  > > going to strong before getting your form down pat.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                  > > > Alestra
                  > >
                  > > Good luck and keep on shooting.
                  > >
                  > > Nest
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _______________________________
                  > > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter
                  > > now.
                  > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                  > > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by
                  > > Medieval Mart
                  > > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's
                  > > http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                  > > leave this list]
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                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                  ... that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and am
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
                    > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell me
                    that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30
                    and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and
                    am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the
                    target accurately.

                    First befor I give any advice I need to know more about your current skill
                    level. Like how long have you been shooting, how many arrows a week you
                    shoot for practice, have you switched from other forms of archery? How did
                    you findout you had random arrow speed? Is your longbow a fiberglass
                    American longbow or a selfwood bow?

                    I to do not undersand the comment that a crossbow has the same advantage as
                    a higher poundage bow. It only takes a 60-70lb crossbow to equal the "arc"
                    of a 25-30 lb longbow. The crossbow has the same dis-advantage of having to
                    figure out the "arc". The advantage is that a crossbow has the exact same
                    release every time. Yes a higher poundage crossbow(just like a high
                    poundage longbow) will have less of an "arc" to a set distance than a lower
                    poundage bow, but it still has an "arc".

                    James Cunningham

                    > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out
                    how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I
                    get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                    >
                    > Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
                    poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent
                    than one that has to arc to hit a target? It's like a crossbow would have
                    no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                  • Mike Hornbaker
                    I might suggest there is a 4th method of release. I learned this when learning the longbow, read in a book, and also found corroboration in the Toxophilius.
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
                      I might suggest there is a 4th method of release. I learned this when
                      learning the longbow, read in a book, and also found corroboration in
                      the Toxophilius. Once at your anchor point, yourelax the fingers just
                      ENOUGH so that the pressure on the string bumps the fingers out of its
                      way at the same time the hand goes back a little farther along the same
                      line. That extra motion is about 1/2 inch of necessary motion for the
                      fingers and string to clear each other. No creeping forward, no exploding
                      fingers away from the string, just a clean sharp release. The way I know
                      I have done this correctly is that my fingers never completely lose
                      contact with my cheek, just lose a bit of pressure as i go back from the
                      anchor point. I call this "stroking the cheek."

                      The words, in general , From the Toxophilius are that a person watching
                      the release sees very little and the archer feels next to nothing. This
                      fits well with the fingers going backward at the same time the string
                      goes forward in a combined distance of 1/2 inch.

                      If your ability to aim is done well, adding the above to it will jump
                      your scores and efficiency.

                      Michael vanBergen






                      On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:47:05 -0400 "Russ Sheldon" <sheldon@...>
                      writes:
                      > Greetings,
                      > A couple of things to remember.
                      > 1) Without some kind of trigger release ( ie using just your hand )
                      > everyone
                      > will pluck the string sometime. Even the best archer. Period.
                      > 2) There are more than one release method , static, active and what
                      > I call
                      > open release. All have there pro's and con's and none of them are
                      > the be all
                      > and end all of shooting. Use the one your most comfortable with.
                      > Static is where you anchor your hand and just release your
                      > fingers.
                      > I find that errors in your release using a static release can be
                      > magnified
                      > by a lighter poundage bow. Also hard to get a nice fast release with
                      > the
                      > string without a lot of practice. If you master this release though
                      > you will
                      > get very good scores for all ranges of archery.
                      > Active release requires you to anchor your hand and then
                      > pull and
                      > release the string. I find that you get faster release with the
                      > string but
                      > it is hard to get a consistent speed with the release for longer
                      > yardage
                      > shots. Also easier to pluck using this method.
                      > Open release ( may have other names ) has your hand follow
                      > the
                      > release of the string for a few inches. Very hard to do right unless
                      > your
                      > using really high poundage bows. Your hand just gets in the way and
                      > slows
                      > down the release.
                      > 3) Be it a glove, finger tab, or just your fingers all must be
                      > inspected to
                      > help better your release. A beat up grubby glove or finger tab can
                      > cause
                      > your string to hang or not roll right on your release. These need to
                      > be
                      > replaced when they begin to get worn. Trouble is they always seem to
                      > die
                      > just as they get broken in just right. Sigh! As for your fingers,
                      > calluses
                      > that will form may help protect your fingers from blisters but they
                      > may also
                      > cause areas on your fingers to catch the string. You may have to
                      > smooth or
                      > scrape these down periodically.
                      > 4) Do not expect to be shooting consistently for at least 4 to 6
                      > months with
                      > regular practice, some people are faster. Your muscles need to
                      > develop a
                      > memory and I usually find that it takes some people that long for
                      > everything
                      > to click. On a 60cm target I usually tell my students to be quite
                      > happy to
                      > get all there arrows on the paper first. Also its better to get a
                      > nice tight
                      > grouping even off the page consistently than have your arrows
                      > looking like
                      > they were shot all over the place with a few in well scoring
                      > locations on
                      > the target. The person with the tight group can eventually be taught
                      > to
                      > change his aiming point and move the group onto the target thus
                      > netting
                      > him/her a very nice score.
                      >
                      > Lastly remember in all of this to Have fun.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps.
                      >
                      > Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Sharon Macielinski" <ariel_elronds_daughter@...>
                      > To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:50 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for the info! Maybe I just hadn't been taught
                      > > this type of release yet? I will have to ask... I was
                      > > so happy that I stopped plucking! When I stopped
                      > > plucking I was able to get so much more accurate at
                      > > 10-20 yard ranges. I anchor my middle finger in
                      > > corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
                      > > stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
                      > > release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
                      > > to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
                      > > told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
                      > > you don't pluck!
                      > >
                      > > I will try a faster release this afternoon, although I
                      > > can only shoot at a 10-15 yard distance here... I
                      > > should be able to tell if the arrows are flying faster
                      > > though by how far they get stuck in the target! :)
                      > >
                      > > Thanks again... I like the baby powder cornstarch idea
                      > > too.
                      > >
                      > > Cheers,
                      > > Alestra
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- Nest verch Tangwistel <eastarch@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're
                      > > > stuck with the 20/30/40
                      > > > > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh
                      > > > well!
                      > > >
                      > > > Why don't the timed ends make sense?
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my
                      > > > instructor is trying to tell
                      > > > > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should
                      > > > have no problems
                      > > > > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been
                      > > > fussing because I wanted a
                      > > > > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out
                      > > > the "arc" thing in
                      > > > > order to hit the target accurately.
                      > > >
                      > > > The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25
                      > > > pounds. The only problem I
                      > > > have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow
                      > > > hits the ceiling in out
                      > > > indoor range before you can get enough arc in the
                      > > > trajectory to reach the
                      > > > target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with
                      > > > a 20 pound bow at
                      > > > Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in
                      > > > the clout or the front
                      > > > wall. so it can be done.
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my
                      > > > difficulty is figuring
                      > > > > out how far above the target to aim... even with a
                      > > > good anchor
                      > > > > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY
                      > > > HINTS?
                      > > > >
                      > > > I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds
                      > > > like you are loosing
                      > > > critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing.
                      > > > A good follow through
                      > > > may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to
                      > > > me that you should
                      > > > never completely come to a halt when getting to your
                      > > > anchor point. Go back
                      > > > to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue
                      > > > pulling until you are
                      > > > ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand
                      > > > should continue moving
                      > > > back towards your shoulder after you have released.
                      > > > If your hand sometimes
                      > > > moves back towards the bow as you release you loose
                      > > > a great deal of speed.
                      > > >
                      > > > > Also, I don't believe that I would have no
                      > > > advantage with a higher
                      > > > > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight
                      > > > more
                      > > > > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to
                      > > > hit a target? It's like
                      > > > > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                      > > >
                      > > > The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does
                      > > > help with shooting at
                      > > > unknown distances. The difference between elevation
                      > > > at fairly similar
                      > > > distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect
                      > > > on your distance
                      > > > estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I
                      > > > echo the worry about
                      > > > going to strong before getting your form down pat.
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                      > > > > Alestra
                      > > >
                      > > > Good luck and keep on shooting.
                      > > >
                      > > > Nest
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
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                    • Brad Boda d'Aylward
                      Random arrow speeds??? Something few people consider. Are you using snap nocks or speed nocks?? Snap nocks need pressure to push the back of the arrow onto
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
                        Random arrow speeds???

                        Something few people consider. Are you using 'snap' nocks or 'speed' nocks??

                        Snap nocks need pressure to push the back of the arrow onto the string with
                        a slight click. Unless these particular type of nocks have been filed to
                        grasp the string with the exact same pressure, one arrow will fly freely
                        while the next will experience a 'braking' effect as the snap nock hangs on
                        to the string a second longer than the others.

                        I always suggest speed nocks (there's another name for them) as they will be
                        more consistant in the point which they allow the arrow to leave the string.

                        Everything else being consistant, this should eliminate some of the arrows
                        dropping sooner than others.

                        Brad

                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice


                        >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
                        business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                        >
                        >
                        >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out
                        how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I
                        get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                        >
                        >
                        >Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                        >Alestra
                        >
                      • Nest verch Tangwistel
                        What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it is not so much a problem with the archer at all but with the equipment. I have had supposedly
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
                          What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it is not
                          so much a problem with the archer at all but with the equipment. I have
                          had supposedly professionally made arrows which differed in weight as much
                          as 150 grains between them, and 20 pounds spine weight. That can add a lot
                          of randomness to shots. Especially at longer distances.

                          Nest
                          --- Brad Boda d'Aylward <bradb@...> wrote:

                          > Random arrow speeds???
                          >




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                        • Guy Taylor
                          This is where getting your arrows from a reputable maker who states that his or her arrows are weight matched and hand spined shows up. Keep in mind that not
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
                            This is where getting your arrows from a reputable maker who states
                            that his or her arrows are weight matched and hand spined shows up.

                            Keep in mind that not everyone matches the arrows they sell. If
                            they do not say that they are matched, you got exactly what you
                            payed for. If you purchased them from F/S Archery in California,
                            you got exactly what you payed for, but not what they advertise.

                            Guy

                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Nest verch Tangwistel
                            <eastarch@y...> wrote:
                            > What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it
                            >is not so much a problem with the archer at all but with the
                            >equipment. I have had supposedly professionally made arrows which
                            >differed in weight as much as 150 grains between them, and 20
                            >pounds spine weight. That can add a lot of randomness to shots.
                            >Especially at longer distances.
                            >
                            > Nest
                          • Carl West
                            ... I anchor similarly, forefinger behind upper canine, at the gum. String in the finger joints. Thumb and little finger touching. To release, I press the the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 8, 2004
                              Sharon Macielinski wrote:

                              > ... I anchor my middle finger in
                              > corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
                              > stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
                              > release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
                              > to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
                              > told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
                              > you don't pluck!

                              I anchor similarly, forefinger behind upper canine, at the gum. String
                              in the finger joints. Thumb and little finger touching. To release, I
                              press the the hand against the face. This straightens the finger tips,
                              away goes the arrow. No chance to pluck. Gotta keep the mustache trimmed
                              though. Works better with stronger bows.



                              -- Fritz

                              Carl West
                              mailto:carl.west@...
                              http://carl.west.home.comcast.net
                            • Sharon Macielinski
                              Hi. Thanks for the comments. Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows hit better, YES! Been working with my random bow (a self-bow
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 8, 2004
                                Hi. Thanks for the comments.

                                Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows hit better, YES!

                                Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn shelf) for another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a couple times by the bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it BITES (slaps above the brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace height) the cherry/hickory is very sensitive to all the humidity (I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is part of the problem. I get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it bites, I've had to use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my shoulder to roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow reduces the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus the varied speeds!

                                And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.

                                I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to be for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20# recurve bow!

                                Wish me luck!
                                Alestra
                                PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also had same prob.

                                John Rossignol <giguette@...> wrote:
                                Sharon Macielinski wrote:

                                >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                                >
                                >

                                Actually, timed shoots make a lot of sense, if you think historically.
                                Imagine the enemy charging your firing line, and they are going to
                                reach you in a few seconds unless you shoot them all...

                                As far as the 20/30/40-yard targets...well, you have to learn to walk
                                before you can run. Actually, one of the best things you can do as a
                                beginner is to not worry about aiming at a target at all, but just
                                practice your draw, anchor, and release.

                                >Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the target accurately.
                                >

                                If you are really only drawing 26 pounds, then the politest way I can
                                put this is to say that your instructor is not being very realistic.
                                Reaching the target is not the same thing as hitting it, and I have
                                seen a lot of arrows from weak bows simply bounce off the hay bales at
                                30 and 40 yards even when they did hit them. See my comments below your
                                bottom paragraph.

                                >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                                >

                                Aiming high above the target is tough, because you seldom have anything
                                handy up in the sky to use as an aiming point, and it's easy to lose
                                track of where the target is. What many archers do in this situation is
                                to use an anchor point on their chest or stomach -- a technique commonly
                                used in clout shooting. This allows them to sight over the tip of a
                                steeply-angled arrow without having to look way up into the sky.
                                Exactly how high to aim is something you will have to work out by trial
                                and error, since every bow and person is different.

                                If you are truly getting *random* arrow speeds, then I suspect that your
                                draw, anchor, and release are not as consistent as you think. A high
                                degree of consistency in these actions is the very foundation of good
                                archery, and generally takes years of practice to achieve. Even very
                                small variations can cause quite an effect on the flight of an arrow.

                                The only other random factors affecting arrow speed would be the wind,
                                and maybe disintegrating equipment (unlikely). A non-random factor
                                could be mismatched arrows, especially with differences in spine and/or
                                fletching. I say non-random because, if all other factors are uniform,
                                the same arrow should fly approximately the same every time you shoot
                                it. Unless the wind is gusting, though, the greatest source of
                                randomness is the archer.

                                >Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target?
                                >

                                You are entirely correct in thinking that higher arrow velocity should
                                increase your accuracy, and for two main reasons.

                                The first is that a faster arrow can reach a given target with a flatter
                                trajectory than can a slower arrow ( I assume that is what you mean by
                                "an arrow that flies straight"). The advantage here is that, as you
                                have noted, it makes aiming much easier -- no aiming up in the sky to
                                reach targets that are only 40 yards away.

                                The second is that a faster arrow will be less affected by wind. There
                                are three aspects of this. 1) Since the faster arrow will be in the air
                                for a shorter time before reaching the target, there is less time for
                                the prevailing wind to act upon it. 2) Since it will be in the air for
                                a shorter time, there is less chance that it will be affected by a
                                *change* in the wind that occurs while it is in flight. We can learn to
                                compensate for steady wind, but gusts and lulls are unpredictable. 3)
                                An arrow shot in a high arc is often exposed to wind of greater force
                                and different direction that the wind closer to the ground.

                                Except for the wind factor, I can't think of anything that would make a
                                faster arrow inherently more consistent than a slower one.
                                Inconsistency is almost always due to the archer.

                                When trying to get your arrows to fly faster, it is important to
                                remember that a heavier draw weight is only one contributing factor.
                                Another is the efficiency of the bow -- how fast it throws the arrow
                                per pound of draw weight. Some bow designs are more efficient than
                                others, and within any particular design some individual bows are more
                                efficient than others because of the materials and craftsmanship
                                involved. If you can, try some different types of bow. Some of the
                                recurved designs are not only more efficient than a longbow, but are
                                actually much easier to draw at the same poundage.

                                Another thing you can do is to use an anchor point which gives you a
                                longer draw length, i.e. to your cheek or your ear instead of your chin.
                                Traditional Japanese archers draw all the way to the shoulder. A
                                longer draw generally increases the effective draw weight of a bow.

                                Arrow weight also has an effect on arrow velocity, but it can be pro or
                                con according to distance and shooting conditions. The most important
                                thing, as far as weight, is that your arrows all be the same.

                                All this being said, it is still very important to not use a bow that is
                                too heavy for you *right now*. You can injure yourself, and you can
                                develop very bad form and habits. Most of us wish we could shoot
                                heavier bows, but we have to let reality be our guide. Your muscles
                                will gain strength fairly rapidly if you draw your bow a lot, but it
                                doesn't do to anticipate too much. The best rule of thumb that I have
                                heard for choosing a good draw weight is one posted on this list by
                                Carolus Eulenhorst, so I will quote him here: "As to poundage, the best
                                thing is to go to practice and try pulling different bows. Find a weight
                                you can just hold at full draw for ten seconds. if you can hold longer
                                the you will outgrow the bow quickly and if you can't hold that long the
                                bow is too heavy for you (overbowed)."

                                If you are serious about archery, please believe me that in the early
                                stages it is actually far more important for you to work on your draw,
                                anchor, and release than it is to hit 40-yard targets -- or any targets,
                                for that matter. And you should do it with a bow that you can draw
                                easily. I know that doesn't sound very exciting, but it will really pay
                                off.

                                >It's like a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                                >
                                >
                                Sorry, I don't understand this comment.

                                John




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                              • Carolus Eulenhorst
                                Try this and see if it doesn t help the bite. Take your normal stance at the line, extend your bow arm toward the target, turn the arm so that the elbow
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
                                  Try this and see if it doesn't help the bite. Take your normal stance at
                                  the line, extend your bow arm toward the target, turn the arm so that the
                                  elbow points horizontal (when the elbow is flexed the arm should move in
                                  a plane parallel with the ground), and then rotate the wrist to put the
                                  hand at a slight angle down on the outside of the arm. It will probably
                                  feel really awkward at first and may even hurt a little but you will get
                                  used to it. Then grasp the bow lightly and draw it with your arm
                                  returning to this position at full draw. This will move the bulk of your
                                  forearm muscle out of the way of the string, solidify the shoulder, and
                                  give a better draw.
                                  Carolus

                                  On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Sharon Macielinski
                                  <ariel_elronds_daughter@...> writes:
                                  > Hi. Thanks for the comments.
                                  >
                                  > Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows
                                  > hit better, YES!
                                  >
                                  > Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn
                                  > shelf) for another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a
                                  > couple times by the bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it
                                  > BITES (slaps above the brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace
                                  > height) the cherry/hickory is very sensitive to all the humidity
                                  > (I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is part of the problem. I
                                  > get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it bites, I've had to
                                  > use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my shoulder to
                                  > roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow reduces
                                  > the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been
                                  > bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus
                                  > the varied speeds!
                                  >
                                  > And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.
                                  >
                                  > I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to
                                  > be for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20#
                                  > recurve bow!
                                  >
                                  > Wish me luck!
                                  > Alestra
                                  > PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also
                                  > had same prob.

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                                • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                                  Greetings, The common complaint about having the string slap on release has been covered many times here, and many have gone into great detail describing the
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
                                    Greetings,
                                    The common complaint about having the string slap on release has
                                    been covered many times here, and many have gone into great detail
                                    describing the rotation of a woman's arm as oppoesed to a man's,
                                    yadayada......
                                    One way that will cure this problem for good is to learn how to
                                    hold the longbow the right way; it's the way I was taught back in the
                                    days that rocks were still soft. As you grip the longbow, the second
                                    knuckle down on the index finger should line up directly with the second
                                    knuckle of the thumb, parallel to the path of the arrow shaft . You use
                                    this as a way of pointing at the target...get used to this feeling. To
                                    do this, you will not be completely straightening and locking your bow
                                    arm and will always have a soft elbow joint (excellent for follow
                                    through, kind of like having a completely natural built-in stabilizer
                                    using only that which the good Lord gave you when you
                                    were born ;-) ) Voila! No more bowstring slaps.
                                    BTW I always wear a bracer anyway because nocks can break and
                                    things can always happen. Better safe than sorry. I shoot a very heavy
                                    draw weight bow, and it can hurt a whole lot with a light draw weight
                                    bow.
                                    My two pense,
                                    -Geoffrei
                                  • John Rossignol
                                    I hope Carolus advice helps you out, Alestra. I m sure his idea is good, I m just having a little trouble visualizing what he means about the wrist. By the
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
                                      I hope Carolus' advice helps you out, Alestra. I'm sure his idea is
                                      good, I'm just having a little trouble visualizing what he means about
                                      the wrist.

                                      By the way, you can buy a bracer that should cover the whole "danger
                                      zone" of your bow arm. I bought one like that to lend people when I am
                                      introducing them to archery. It is 13" long, black leather with what
                                      feels like tough plastic rods sewn inside. It fastens with elastic and
                                      velcro, and it bends at the elbow. It's not "period", of course, but it
                                      is not obtrusive, and when your arm is getting massacred, who cares,
                                      anyhow? I didn't get it at a "traditional archery" store -- there
                                      aren't any right around where I live, and I needed this bracer in a
                                      hurry. It was actually just a lucky find in amongst the ultra-modern
                                      and camouflage stuff, but it has worked out pretty well. Unfortunately
                                      I don't remember the brand name. And you know, there is no law against
                                      padding the inside of your bracer, either (isn't that why sleeves were
                                      invented?)

                                      Of course, super-bracers and extra padding should only be stop-gap
                                      measures, to use until you can solve the problem with good technique and
                                      compatible equipment. But in the meantime -- hey, they can help you
                                      have fun and shoot the bow without killing yourself.

                                      That twisted limb on your bow is almost certainly causing some of your
                                      problems. By the way, 7" is not all that high a brace height, and that
                                      does make it easier to slap your arm with the string. My first bow has
                                      a brace height just over 7" with the strings I used, and I got some
                                      really terrific bruises before I got a decent bracer and, more
                                      importantly, learned to hold my arm correctly. Of course, if you used a
                                      shorter string to get a higher (and "safer") brace height, that would
                                      shorten your power stroke, and you certainly don't want do that with
                                      such a light bow.

                                      And yes, Good Luck in your competition, but remember -- however it goes,
                                      the object is always to Have Fun. I know we can lose sight of that
                                      sometimes, but it should always be our goal. So if your equipment
                                      really spoils this one for you, at least use it as an opportunity to lay
                                      the foundation for Having Fun in the future: by getting some experience
                                      with other bows. After a competition is over, the Range Marshal will
                                      usually open the range for practice. If there are archers there with
                                      bows in your general strength range, ask if you can try shooting them.
                                      Most archers I have met are very generous about this. See if other
                                      bows give you the same problems as your bow. Compare the feel of
                                      different bows as you draw and release, and try to find what might be a
                                      better draw weight for you. You might also find a particular design or
                                      brand that you especially like.

                                      Good luck. I hope some of that helps.

                                      John


                                      Carolus Eulenhorst wrote:

                                      >Try this and see if it doesn't help the bite. Take your normal stance at
                                      >the line, extend your bow arm toward the target, turn the arm so that the
                                      >elbow points horizontal (when the elbow is flexed the arm should move in
                                      >a plane parallel with the ground), and then rotate the wrist to put the
                                      >hand at a slight angle down on the outside of the arm. It will probably
                                      >feel really awkward at first and may even hurt a little but you will get
                                      >used to it. Then grasp the bow lightly and draw it with your arm
                                      >returning to this position at full draw. This will move the bulk of your
                                      >forearm muscle out of the way of the string, solidify the shoulder, and
                                      >give a better draw.
                                      >Carolus
                                      >
                                      >On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Sharon Macielinski
                                      ><ariel_elronds_daughter@...> writes:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >>Hi. Thanks for the comments.
                                      >>
                                      >>Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows
                                      >>hit better, YES!
                                      >>
                                      >>Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn
                                      >>shelf) for another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a
                                      >>couple times by the bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it
                                      >>BITES (slaps above the brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace
                                      >>height) the cherry/hickory is very sensitive to all the humidity
                                      >>(I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is part of the problem. I
                                      >>get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it bites, I've had to
                                      >>use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my shoulder to
                                      >>roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow reduces
                                      >>the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been
                                      >>bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus
                                      >>the varied speeds!
                                      >>
                                      >>And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.
                                      >>
                                      >>I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to
                                      >>be for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20#
                                      >>recurve bow!
                                      >>
                                      >>Wish me luck!
                                      >>Alestra
                                      >>PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also
                                      >>had same prob.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Carolus Eulenhorst
                                      It is what is referred to as a high wrist position. A low wrist position has the hand vertical with the bow resting heavily on the fleshy part of the hand
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
                                        It is what is referred to as a high wrist position. A low wrist position
                                        has the hand vertical with the bow resting heavily on the fleshy part of
                                        the hand below the thumb. Many people use this position, especially with
                                        long bow. The high wrist moves the bow to the web of the thumb removing
                                        much of the pressure from the hand. It makes the bow "float" in the
                                        grip, eliminates much tendency to torque it, and lets the arm shift
                                        slightly out of the path of the string. If you hold your arm out and
                                        pronate the elbow (the first step I mentioned) you will find your hand
                                        naturally tends to take a position where the palm is parallel with the
                                        ground. This is too high. Rotate the little finger back down to a
                                        comfortable position (45 to 60 degrees down) without changing the elbow
                                        position and everything should drop into place.

                                        I have a virtually identical bracer. It was made by Saunders. There are
                                        others out there, too.
                                        Carolus

                                        On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:34:11 -0700 John Rossignol <giguette@...>
                                        writes:
                                        > I hope Carolus' advice helps you out, Alestra. I'm sure his idea is
                                        >
                                        > good, I'm just having a little trouble visualizing what he means
                                        > about
                                        > the wrist.
                                        >
                                        > By the way, you can buy a bracer that should cover the whole "danger
                                        >
                                        > zone" of your bow arm. I bought one like that to lend people when I
                                        > am
                                        > introducing them to archery. It is 13" long, black leather with
                                        > what
                                        > feels like tough plastic rods sewn inside. It fastens with elastic
                                        > and
                                        > velcro, and it bends at the elbow. It's not "period", of course,
                                        > but it
                                        > is not obtrusive, and when your arm is getting massacred, who cares,
                                        >
                                        > anyhow? I didn't get it at a "traditional archery" store -- there
                                        > aren't any right around where I live, and I needed this bracer in a
                                        >
                                        > hurry. It was actually just a lucky find in amongst the
                                        > ultra-modern
                                        > and camouflage stuff, but it has worked out pretty well.
                                        > Unfortunately
                                        > I don't remember the brand name. And you know, there is no law
                                        > against
                                        > padding the inside of your bracer, either (isn't that why sleeves
                                        > were
                                        > invented?)
                                        >
                                        > Of course, super-bracers and extra padding should only be stop-gap
                                        > measures, to use until you can solve the problem with good technique
                                        > and
                                        > compatible equipment. But in the meantime -- hey, they can help you
                                        >
                                        > have fun and shoot the bow without killing yourself.
                                        >
                                        > That twisted limb on your bow is almost certainly causing some of
                                        > your
                                        > problems. By the way, 7" is not all that high a brace height, and
                                        > that
                                        > does make it easier to slap your arm with the string. My first bow
                                        > has
                                        > a brace height just over 7" with the strings I used, and I got some
                                        >
                                        > really terrific bruises before I got a decent bracer and, more
                                        > importantly, learned to hold my arm correctly. Of course, if you
                                        > used a
                                        > shorter string to get a higher (and "safer") brace height, that
                                        > would
                                        > orten your power stroke, and you certainly don't want do that with
                                        > such a light bow.
                                        >
                                        > And yes, Good Luck in your competition, but remember -- however it
                                        > goes,
                                        > the object is always to Have Fun. I know we can lose sight of that
                                        >
                                        > sometimes, but it should always be our goal. So if your equipment
                                        > really spoils this one for you, at least use it as an opportunity to
                                        > lay
                                        > the foundation for Having Fun in the future: by getting some
                                        > experience
                                        > with other bows. After a competition is over, the Range Marshal
                                        > will
                                        > usually open the range for practice. If there are archers there
                                        > with
                                        > bows in your general strength range, ask if you can try shooting
                                        > them.
                                        > Most archers I have met are very generous about this. See if other
                                        >
                                        > bows give you the same problems as your bow. Compare the feel of
                                        > different bows as you draw and release, and try to find what might
                                        > be a
                                        > better draw weight for you. You might also find a particular design
                                        > or
                                        > brand that you especially like.
                                        >
                                        > Good luck. I hope some of that helps.
                                        >
                                        > John

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                                      • John Rossignol
                                        Oh, yes, thanks. I think I see what you mean. John
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
                                          Oh, yes, thanks. I think I see what you mean.

                                          John

                                          Carolus Eulenhorst wrote:

                                          >It is what is referred to as a high wrist position. A low wrist position
                                          >has the hand vertical with the bow resting heavily on the fleshy part of
                                          >the hand below the thumb. Many people use this position, especially with
                                          >long bow. The high wrist moves the bow to the web of the thumb removing
                                          >much of the pressure from the hand. It makes the bow "float" in the
                                          >grip, eliminates much tendency to torque it, and lets the arm shift
                                          >slightly out of the path of the string. If you hold your arm out and
                                          >pronate the elbow (the first step I mentioned) you will find your hand
                                          >naturally tends to take a position where the palm is parallel with the
                                          >ground. This is too high. Rotate the little finger back down to a
                                          >comfortable position (45 to 60 degrees down) without changing the elbow
                                          >position and everything should drop into place.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                          A low poundage(under 50LB) wood longbow is the hardest bow to shoot well. It bits, kicks, and turns weak if held too long. It will be extremly fustrating to
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
                                            A low poundage(under 50LB) wood longbow is the hardest bow to shoot well. It
                                            bits, kicks, and turns weak if held too long. It will be extremly fustrating
                                            to get it to shoot well but if you can master it all other bows will be easy
                                            to shoot by comparison. Being that it is a selfwood/laminated wood bow and
                                            that you are "not drawing to a consistent bend" that is the two main causes
                                            for varying arrows speeds. Have fun shooting. The people who know bows will
                                            know how hard you are working to get your bow to shoot.

                                            James Cunningham

                                            P.S. Get a bracer big enough to protect your arm.
                                            The twist in the limb is not a big thing in a longbow... in a recurve...
                                            could be.

                                            > Hi. Thanks for the comments.
                                            >
                                            > Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows hit
                                            better, YES!
                                            >
                                            > Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn shelf) for
                                            another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a couple times by the
                                            bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it BITES (slaps above the
                                            brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace height) the cherry/hickory is very
                                            sensitive to all the humidity (I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is
                                            part of the problem. I get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it
                                            bites, I've had to use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my
                                            shoulder to roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow
                                            reduces the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been
                                            bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus the
                                            varied speeds!
                                            >
                                            > And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.
                                            >
                                            > I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to be
                                            for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20# recurve bow!
                                            >
                                            > Wish me luck!
                                            > Alestra
                                            > PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also had
                                            same prob.
                                            >
                                            > John Rossignol <giguette@...> wrote:
                                            > Sharon Macielinski wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
                                            business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Actually, timed shoots make a lot of sense, if you think historically.
                                            > Imagine the enemy charging your firing line, and they are going to
                                            > reach you in a few seconds unless you shoot them all...
                                            >
                                            > As far as the 20/30/40-yard targets...well, you have to learn to walk
                                            > before you can run. Actually, one of the best things you can do as a
                                            > beginner is to not worry about aiming at a target at all, but just
                                            > practice your draw, anchor, and release.
                                            >
                                            > >Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell
                                            me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting
                                            30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow
                                            and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the
                                            target accurately.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > If you are really only drawing 26 pounds, then the politest way I can
                                            > put this is to say that your instructor is not being very realistic.
                                            > Reaching the target is not the same thing as hitting it, and I have
                                            > seen a lot of arrows from weak bows simply bounce off the hay bales at
                                            > 30 and 40 yards even when they did hit them. See my comments below your
                                            > bottom paragraph.
                                            >
                                            > >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out
                                            how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I
                                            get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Aiming high above the target is tough, because you seldom have anything
                                            > handy up in the sky to use as an aiming point, and it's easy to lose
                                            > track of where the target is. What many archers do in this situation is
                                            > to use an anchor point on their chest or stomach -- a technique commonly
                                            > used in clout shooting. This allows them to sight over the tip of a
                                            > steeply-angled arrow without having to look way up into the sky.
                                            > Exactly how high to aim is something you will have to work out by trial
                                            > and error, since every bow and person is different.
                                            >
                                            > If you are truly getting *random* arrow speeds, then I suspect that your
                                            > draw, anchor, and release are not as consistent as you think. A high
                                            > degree of consistency in these actions is the very foundation of good
                                            > archery, and generally takes years of practice to achieve. Even very
                                            > small variations can cause quite an effect on the flight of an arrow.
                                            >
                                            > The only other random factors affecting arrow speed would be the wind,
                                            > and maybe disintegrating equipment (unlikely). A non-random factor
                                            > could be mismatched arrows, especially with differences in spine and/or
                                            > fletching. I say non-random because, if all other factors are uniform,
                                            > the same arrow should fly approximately the same every time you shoot
                                            > it. Unless the wind is gusting, though, the greatest source of
                                            > randomness is the archer.
                                            >
                                            > >Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
                                            poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent
                                            than one that has to arc to hit a target?
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > You are entirely correct in thinking that higher arrow velocity should
                                            > increase your accuracy, and for two main reasons.
                                            >
                                            > The first is that a faster arrow can reach a given target with a flatter
                                            > trajectory than can a slower arrow ( I assume that is what you mean by
                                            > "an arrow that flies straight"). The advantage here is that, as you
                                            > have noted, it makes aiming much easier -- no aiming up in the sky to
                                            > reach targets that are only 40 yards away.
                                            >
                                            > The second is that a faster arrow will be less affected by wind. There
                                            > are three aspects of this. 1) Since the faster arrow will be in the air
                                            > for a shorter time before reaching the target, there is less time for
                                            > the prevailing wind to act upon it. 2) Since it will be in the air for
                                            > a shorter time, there is less chance that it will be affected by a
                                            > *change* in the wind that occurs while it is in flight. We can learn to
                                            > compensate for steady wind, but gusts and lulls are unpredictable. 3)
                                            > An arrow shot in a high arc is often exposed to wind of greater force
                                            > and different direction that the wind closer to the ground.
                                            >
                                            > Except for the wind factor, I can't think of anything that would make a
                                            > faster arrow inherently more consistent than a slower one.
                                            > Inconsistency is almost always due to the archer.
                                            >
                                            > When trying to get your arrows to fly faster, it is important to
                                            > remember that a heavier draw weight is only one contributing factor.
                                            > Another is the efficiency of the bow -- how fast it throws the arrow
                                            > per pound of draw weight. Some bow designs are more efficient than
                                            > others, and within any particular design some individual bows are more
                                            > efficient than others because of the materials and craftsmanship
                                            > involved. If you can, try some different types of bow. Some of the
                                            > recurved designs are not only more efficient than a longbow, but are
                                            > actually much easier to draw at the same poundage.
                                            >
                                            > Another thing you can do is to use an anchor point which gives you a
                                            > longer draw length, i.e. to your cheek or your ear instead of your chin.
                                            > Traditional Japanese archers draw all the way to the shoulder. A
                                            > longer draw generally increases the effective draw weight of a bow.
                                            >
                                            > Arrow weight also has an effect on arrow velocity, but it can be pro or
                                            > con according to distance and shooting conditions. The most important
                                            > thing, as far as weight, is that your arrows all be the same.
                                            >
                                            > All this being said, it is still very important to not use a bow that is
                                            > too heavy for you *right now*. You can injure yourself, and you can
                                            > develop very bad form and habits. Most of us wish we could shoot
                                            > heavier bows, but we have to let reality be our guide. Your muscles
                                            > will gain strength fairly rapidly if you draw your bow a lot, but it
                                            > doesn't do to anticipate too much. The best rule of thumb that I have
                                            > heard for choosing a good draw weight is one posted on this list by
                                            > Carolus Eulenhorst, so I will quote him here: "As to poundage, the best
                                            > thing is to go to practice and try pulling different bows. Find a weight
                                            > you can just hold at full draw for ten seconds. if you can hold longer
                                            > the you will outgrow the bow quickly and if you can't hold that long the
                                            > bow is too heavy for you (overbowed)."
                                            >
                                            > If you are serious about archery, please believe me that in the early
                                            > stages it is actually far more important for you to work on your draw,
                                            > anchor, and release than it is to hit 40-yard targets -- or any targets,
                                            > for that matter. And you should do it with a bow that you can draw
                                            > easily. I know that doesn't sound very exciting, but it will really pay
                                            > off.
                                            >
                                            > >It's like a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > Sorry, I don't understand this comment.
                                            >
                                            > John
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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