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Re: [SCA-Archery] Digest Number 1723

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  • longbow
    The number of Woods Walk type shoots in AEthelmarc has led to a drop in the number of people participating in the Royal round shoots. One event that has 5
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 31, 2004
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      The number of "Woods Walk" type shoots in AEthelmarc has led to a drop
      in the
      number of people participating in the Royal round shoots. One event that
      has 5 such
      walks is Will's Revenge that is held in Central PA in early May. It's
      the first such
      during the year. Very well attended. And very challenging. Lots of
      "moving" targets as well.

      Master Gwilym



      > From: "J. Hughes" <jphughessr@...>
      >Subject: Re: SCA Archery Coaching
      >
      >Actually, a "woods walk" is a standard thing for many
      >archery championships. Both the champion shoot for the
      >war point and the champion shoot for the Youth archery
      >at Pennsic had wood walks that presented targets in
      >the settings of hunting. I have also seen a number of
      >times creative use of moving targets on such shoots.
      >
      >Charles O'Connor
      >--- Sharon Macielinski
      ><ariel_elronds_daughter@...> wrote:
      > I have not
      >
      >
      >>heard any kind of mock hunting trial... Depends on
      >>the kingdom/area? Enlightenments?
      >>
      >>Best wishes,
      >>Alestra (K of Atlantia)
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
      ... I guess I just attended the wrong year. Since I went, to the one two years ago, after hearing year after year about how great an archery event it was ...
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 31, 2004
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        At 02:19 PM 8/31/2004, longbow wrote:
        >One event that
        >has 5 such
        >walks is Will's Revenge that is held in Central PA in early May. It's
        >the first such
        >during the year. Very well attended. And very challenging. Lots of
        >"moving" targets as well.

        I guess I just attended the wrong year.

        Since I went, to the one two years ago, after hearing year after year about
        how great an archery event it was ...

        To find a single, 6 station woods walk, an advancing man, and a 20/30/40 range.

        That was it. Not bad for a 'fighting event with some archery'. But not at
        all what was expected of an 'ARCHERY ARCHERY ARCHERY' event.

        Siegfried



        ___________________________________________________________________________
        THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust http://crossbows.biz/
        Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery Marshal
        Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
        http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/ http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
      • J. Hughes
        You really did come the wrong year. But we really enjoyed seeing you and I enjoyed being able to talk to you in person. Come on back up...... Charles O Connor
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 31, 2004
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          You really did come the wrong year. But we really
          enjoyed seeing you and I enjoyed being able to talk to
          you in person. Come on back up......

          Charles O'Connor
          --- Siegfried Sebastian Faust <crossbow@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I guess I just attended the wrong year.




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        • Brad Boda d'Aylward
          Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Digest Number 1723 ... range. ... You did, in fact, hit on the wrong year. That year we were opposite Crown Tourney with permission
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 31, 2004
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            Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Digest Number 1723


            >At 02:19 PM 8/31/2004, longbow wrote:
            >>One event that
            >>has 5 such
            >>walks is Will's Revenge that is held in Central PA in early May. It's
            >>the first such
            >>during the year. Very well attended. And very challenging. Lots of
            >>"moving" targets as well.
            >
            >I guess I just attended the wrong year.
            >
            >Since I went, to the one two years ago, after hearing year after year about
            >how great an archery event it was ...
            >
            >To find a single, 6 station woods walk, an advancing man, and a 20/30/40
            range.
            >
            >That was it. Not bad for a 'fighting event with some archery'. But not at
            >all what was expected of an 'ARCHERY ARCHERY ARCHERY' event.
            >
            >Siegfried
            >
            You did, in fact, hit on the wrong year. That year we were opposite Crown
            Tourney with permission and many of our more dedicated folks were involved
            with that Event. If I recall correctly, the weather turned against us also.
            There were other issues which were internal. Please don't judge one of the
            premier archery events of this Kingdom by one bad year. We all have them at
            one time or another.

            Brad
            (20, 30, 40 range marshal for Will's Revenge.)
            (Sceneshal for the shire during that event)
          • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
            ... Well, I would love to come back; however, it seems that the weekend is always a hard one for me. It is usually directly conflicting with my wedding
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 31, 2004
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              At 09:52 PM 8/31/2004, Brad Boda d'Aylward wrote:
              >You did, in fact, hit on the wrong year. That year we were opposite Crown
              >Tourney with permission and many of our more dedicated folks were involved
              >with that Event. If I recall correctly, the weather turned against us also.
              >There were other issues which were internal. Please don't judge one of the
              >premier archery events of this Kingdom by one bad year. We all have them at
              >one time or another.

              Well, I would love to come back; however, it seems that the weekend is
              always a hard one for me. It is usually directly conflicting with my
              wedding anniversary.

              And besides that, this coming year, if I would attend, I would be attending
              with a 3 month old child. Which might affect said plans.

              Siegfried



              ___________________________________________________________________________
              THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust http://crossbows.biz/
              Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery Marshal
              Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
              http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/ http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
            • Sharon Macielinski
              Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we re stuck with the 20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well! Alrighty guys... I need advice
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
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                Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!

                Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the target accurately.

                My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?

                Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target? It's like a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....

                Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                Alestra

                longbow <scalongbow@...> wrote:
                The number of "Woods Walk" type shoots in AEthelmarc has led to a drop
                in the
                number of people participating in the Royal round shoots. One event that
                has 5 such
                walks is Will's Revenge that is held in Central PA in early May. It's
                the first such
                during the year. Very well attended. And very challenging. Lots of
                "moving" targets as well.

                Master Gwilym



                > From: "J. Hughes"
                >Subject: Re: SCA Archery Coaching
                >
                >Actually, a "woods walk" is a standard thing for many
                >archery championships. Both the champion shoot for the
                >war point and the champion shoot for the Youth archery
                >at Pennsic had wood walks that presented targets in
                >the settings of hunting. I have also seen a number of
                >times creative use of moving targets on such shoots.
                >
                >Charles O'Connor
                >--- Sharon Macielinski
                > wrote:
                > I have not
                >
                >
                >>heard any kind of mock hunting trial... Depends on
                >>the kingdom/area? Enlightenments?
                >>
                >>Best wishes,
                >>Alestra (K of Atlantia)
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >__________________________________
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                >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
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                >________________________________________________________________________
                >
                >
                >---8<---------------------------------------------
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                >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                >
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              • Carolus Eulenhorst
                Sure, a higher poundage will get a flatter trajectory. But it will make it harder to learn good form and your 26 should work just fine at these short
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
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                  Sure, a higher poundage will get a flatter trajectory. But it will make
                  it harder to learn good form and your 26 should work just fine at these
                  short distances. I had a gal with a 25 # bow dropping nearly on the pin
                  of a 90 yard clout! So, what's next? Your release. We really haven't
                  gotten into releases here yet so this is kind of new territory. Let's
                  see if I can get this across.

                  First off, some basics. The power for your draw comes from your back,
                  not your arms or shoulders. In fact, the muscles of your arms should be
                  slightly relaxed even at full draw. You want this tension in your back
                  to continue through your release and into the follow through. This gives
                  what is called an active release as opposed to a dead release.

                  A dead release is one in which the archer pulls to his anchor point,
                  stops and simply opens his fingers. It's good, steady and doesn't
                  introduce errors to the arrow. But it robs his shot of power. Once the
                  archer stops pulling the bow begins to lose energy and the longer he
                  waits the slower his shot (the less cast it has). This means that more
                  arc is needed to get downrange. On the other hand, an active release is
                  one in which the archer prepares his shot in advance, draws to where his
                  site picture is where he expects it to be as he reaches his anchor (yes
                  even instinctive archers have site pictures, they just have them so
                  ingrained that they are conscious of them), hesitates for an instant to
                  be sure everything is right, and pulls through, relaxing his fingers on
                  the way getting a fast, efficient release. The archer's hand ends up
                  behind his anchor during follow through. For example, my anchor is under
                  my chin with the string touching my nose, both lips, and the center of my
                  chin. My thumb is resting under and against my jaw. As I release, ma
                  hand continues back and ends up under my ear. That is, if I do it right.
                  This is the active release.

                  Using this release I was able to get flat shots from a 33# bow at 60
                  yards. One of the tricks here is to never, never let your back relax
                  once your start drawing until you complete your follow through. You will
                  also want to powder your string fingers. I like a mix of 50/50 baby
                  powder and corn starch. Rub it into your string hand before putting on
                  your glove or tab, then powder your glove or tab as well. Keep
                  reapplying until the leather is well saturated.

                  This will give you an impressive increase in arrow speed and accuracy.
                  Carolus


                  On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 00:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Sharon Macielinski
                  <ariel_elronds_daughter@...> writes:
                  > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
                  > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                  >
                  > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to
                  > tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no
                  > problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing
                  > because I wanted a heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure
                  > out the "arc" thing in order to hit the target accurately.
                  >
                  > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is
                  > figuring out how far above the target to aim... even with a good
                  > anchor point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                  >
                  > Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
                  > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more
                  > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target? It's
                  > like a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                  >
                  > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                  > Alestra

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                • John Rossignol
                  ... Actually, timed shoots make a lot of sense, if you think historically. Imagine the enemy charging your firing line, and they are going to reach you in a
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
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                    Sharon Macielinski wrote:

                    >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                    >
                    >

                    Actually, timed shoots make a lot of sense, if you think historically.
                    Imagine the enemy charging your firing line, and they are going to
                    reach you in a few seconds unless you shoot them all...

                    As far as the 20/30/40-yard targets...well, you have to learn to walk
                    before you can run. Actually, one of the best things you can do as a
                    beginner is to not worry about aiming at a target at all, but just
                    practice your draw, anchor, and release.

                    >Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the target accurately.
                    >

                    If you are really only drawing 26 pounds, then the politest way I can
                    put this is to say that your instructor is not being very realistic.
                    Reaching the target is not the same thing as hitting it, and I have
                    seen a lot of arrows from weak bows simply bounce off the hay bales at
                    30 and 40 yards even when they did hit them. See my comments below your
                    bottom paragraph.

                    >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                    >

                    Aiming high above the target is tough, because you seldom have anything
                    handy up in the sky to use as an aiming point, and it's easy to lose
                    track of where the target is. What many archers do in this situation is
                    to use an anchor point on their chest or stomach -- a technique commonly
                    used in clout shooting. This allows them to sight over the tip of a
                    steeply-angled arrow without having to look way up into the sky.
                    Exactly how high to aim is something you will have to work out by trial
                    and error, since every bow and person is different.

                    If you are truly getting *random* arrow speeds, then I suspect that your
                    draw, anchor, and release are not as consistent as you think. A high
                    degree of consistency in these actions is the very foundation of good
                    archery, and generally takes years of practice to achieve. Even very
                    small variations can cause quite an effect on the flight of an arrow.

                    The only other random factors affecting arrow speed would be the wind,
                    and maybe disintegrating equipment (unlikely). A non-random factor
                    could be mismatched arrows, especially with differences in spine and/or
                    fletching. I say non-random because, if all other factors are uniform,
                    the same arrow should fly approximately the same every time you shoot
                    it. Unless the wind is gusting, though, the greatest source of
                    randomness is the archer.

                    >Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target?
                    >

                    You are entirely correct in thinking that higher arrow velocity should
                    increase your accuracy, and for two main reasons.

                    The first is that a faster arrow can reach a given target with a flatter
                    trajectory than can a slower arrow ( I assume that is what you mean by
                    "an arrow that flies straight"). The advantage here is that, as you
                    have noted, it makes aiming much easier -- no aiming up in the sky to
                    reach targets that are only 40 yards away.

                    The second is that a faster arrow will be less affected by wind. There
                    are three aspects of this. 1) Since the faster arrow will be in the air
                    for a shorter time before reaching the target, there is less time for
                    the prevailing wind to act upon it. 2) Since it will be in the air for
                    a shorter time, there is less chance that it will be affected by a
                    *change* in the wind that occurs while it is in flight. We can learn to
                    compensate for steady wind, but gusts and lulls are unpredictable. 3)
                    An arrow shot in a high arc is often exposed to wind of greater force
                    and different direction that the wind closer to the ground.

                    Except for the wind factor, I can't think of anything that would make a
                    faster arrow inherently more consistent than a slower one.
                    Inconsistency is almost always due to the archer.

                    When trying to get your arrows to fly faster, it is important to
                    remember that a heavier draw weight is only one contributing factor.
                    Another is the efficiency of the bow -- how fast it throws the arrow
                    per pound of draw weight. Some bow designs are more efficient than
                    others, and within any particular design some individual bows are more
                    efficient than others because of the materials and craftsmanship
                    involved. If you can, try some different types of bow. Some of the
                    recurved designs are not only more efficient than a longbow, but are
                    actually much easier to draw at the same poundage.

                    Another thing you can do is to use an anchor point which gives you a
                    longer draw length, i.e. to your cheek or your ear instead of your chin.
                    Traditional Japanese archers draw all the way to the shoulder. A
                    longer draw generally increases the effective draw weight of a bow.

                    Arrow weight also has an effect on arrow velocity, but it can be pro or
                    con according to distance and shooting conditions. The most important
                    thing, as far as weight, is that your arrows all be the same.

                    All this being said, it is still very important to not use a bow that is
                    too heavy for you *right now*. You can injure yourself, and you can
                    develop very bad form and habits. Most of us wish we could shoot
                    heavier bows, but we have to let reality be our guide. Your muscles
                    will gain strength fairly rapidly if you draw your bow a lot, but it
                    doesn't do to anticipate too much. The best rule of thumb that I have
                    heard for choosing a good draw weight is one posted on this list by
                    Carolus Eulenhorst, so I will quote him here: "As to poundage, the best
                    thing is to go to practice and try pulling different bows. Find a weight
                    you can just hold at full draw for ten seconds. if you can hold longer
                    the you will outgrow the bow quickly and if you can't hold that long the
                    bow is too heavy for you (overbowed)."

                    If you are serious about archery, please believe me that in the early
                    stages it is actually far more important for you to work on your draw,
                    anchor, and release than it is to hit 40-yard targets -- or any targets,
                    for that matter. And you should do it with a bow that you can draw
                    easily. I know that doesn't sound very exciting, but it will really pay
                    off.

                    >It's like a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                    >
                    >
                    Sorry, I don't understand this comment.

                    John
                  • Dan Scheid
                    ... that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and am
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
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                      > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell me
                      that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30
                      and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and
                      am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the
                      target accurately.
                      > > Alestra
                      >
                      he is right after watching the Olympics with them shooting 40# Bow at 70
                      meters . your 35 should hit. But I use a 60# never could work the arch thing
                      Damales
                    • Scott Jaqua
                      There is no reason that a 26lb bow should not be able to hit and stick into a target at 40 yards. (unless your target is unreasonably dense). I had a 22lb bow
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
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                        There is no reason that a 26lb bow should not be able to hit and stick
                        into a target at 40 yards. (unless your target is unreasonably dense). I
                        had a 22lb bow that I used to lend out to left handed students and it
                        did the job just fine.

                        First off heed your coach and the majority here. Don't go to a heavy bow
                        yet. This is a great time to practice consistent form. Wait until you
                        are consistent with this bow before you add more weight to the equation.

                        Others have spoken of your anchor and release. And these are key to
                        getting the maximum consistent level of energy out of your bow.

                        However, as distance increases, there is another element of your form
                        that gains in importance. And that is follow through. A minor follow
                        through error a short distance is greatly magnified as the distance
                        increases. In short you need the bow to remain a steady launch platform
                        until the arrow clears the rest. If the arrow rest falls away from the
                        arrow too quickly, then the arrow will fall of as well.

                        The best thing you can do is slightly exaggerate the follow through.
                        Hold your form for a few seconds after the release before you relax.
                        This is one case of too much is better then not enough.

                        And on a final note: lack of a proper follow through is perhaps the
                        number one error I see in even the most experienced SCA archers. (that
                        and a nasty pluck on release that I have (been working on it for 26
                        years, still it comes back after any lay off between practices))

                        Njall
                      • Nest verch Tangwistel
                        ... Why don t the timed ends make sense? ... The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25 pounds. The only problem I have seen is with the really light
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
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                          > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
                          > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!

                          Why don't the timed ends make sense?

                          >
                          > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell
                          > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems
                          > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a
                          > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in
                          > order to hit the target accurately.

                          The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25 pounds. The only problem I
                          have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow hits the ceiling in out
                          indoor range before you can get enough arc in the trajectory to reach the
                          target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with a 20 pound bow at
                          Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in the clout or the front
                          wall. so it can be done.

                          >
                          > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring
                          > out how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor
                          > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                          >
                          I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds like you are loosing
                          critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing. A good follow through
                          may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to me that you should
                          never completely come to a halt when getting to your anchor point. Go back
                          to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue pulling until you are
                          ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand should continue moving
                          back towards your shoulder after you have released. If your hand sometimes
                          moves back towards the bow as you release you loose a great deal of speed.

                          > Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
                          > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more
                          > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target? It's like
                          > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....

                          The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does help with shooting at
                          unknown distances. The difference between elevation at fairly similar
                          distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect on your distance
                          estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I echo the worry about
                          going to strong before getting your form down pat.

                          >
                          > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                          > Alestra

                          Good luck and keep on shooting.

                          Nest



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                        • Nest verch Tangwistel
                          ... Why don t the timed ends make sense? ... The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25 pounds. The only problem I have seen is with the really light
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
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                            > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
                            > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!

                            Why don't the timed ends make sense?

                            >
                            > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell
                            > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems
                            > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a
                            > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in
                            > order to hit the target accurately.

                            The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25 pounds. The only problem I
                            have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow hits the ceiling in out
                            indoor range before you can get enough arc in the trajectory to reach the
                            target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with a 20 pound bow at
                            Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in the clout or the front
                            wall. so it can be done.

                            >
                            > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring
                            > out how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor
                            > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                            >
                            I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds like you are loosing
                            critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing. A good follow through
                            may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to me that you should
                            never completely come to a halt when getting to your anchor point. Go back
                            to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue pulling until you are
                            ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand should continue moving
                            back towards your shoulder after you have released. If your hand sometimes
                            moves back towards the bow as you release you loose a great deal of speed.

                            > Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
                            > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more
                            > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target? It's like
                            > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....

                            The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does help with shooting at
                            unknown distances. The difference between elevation at fairly similar
                            distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect on your distance
                            estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I echo the worry about
                            going to strong before getting your form down pat.

                            >
                            > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                            > Alestra

                            Good luck and keep on shooting.

                            Nest



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                          • Sharon Macielinski
                            Thanks for the info! Maybe I just hadn t been taught this type of release yet? I will have to ask... I was so happy that I stopped plucking! When I stopped
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks for the info! Maybe I just hadn't been taught
                              this type of release yet? I will have to ask... I was
                              so happy that I stopped plucking! When I stopped
                              plucking I was able to get so much more accurate at
                              10-20 yard ranges. I anchor my middle finger in
                              corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
                              stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
                              release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
                              to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
                              told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
                              you don't pluck!

                              I will try a faster release this afternoon, although I
                              can only shoot at a 10-15 yard distance here... I
                              should be able to tell if the arrows are flying faster
                              though by how far they get stuck in the target! :)

                              Thanks again... I like the baby powder cornstarch idea
                              too.

                              Cheers,
                              Alestra


                              --- Nest verch Tangwistel <eastarch@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're
                              > stuck with the 20/30/40
                              > > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh
                              > well!
                              >
                              > Why don't the timed ends make sense?
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my
                              > instructor is trying to tell
                              > > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should
                              > have no problems
                              > > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been
                              > fussing because I wanted a
                              > > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out
                              > the "arc" thing in
                              > > order to hit the target accurately.
                              >
                              > The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25
                              > pounds. The only problem I
                              > have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow
                              > hits the ceiling in out
                              > indoor range before you can get enough arc in the
                              > trajectory to reach the
                              > target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with
                              > a 20 pound bow at
                              > Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in
                              > the clout or the front
                              > wall. so it can be done.
                              >
                              > >
                              > > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my
                              > difficulty is figuring
                              > > out how far above the target to aim... even with a
                              > good anchor
                              > > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY
                              > HINTS?
                              > >
                              > I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds
                              > like you are loosing
                              > critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing.
                              > A good follow through
                              > may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to
                              > me that you should
                              > never completely come to a halt when getting to your
                              > anchor point. Go back
                              > to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue
                              > pulling until you are
                              > ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand
                              > should continue moving
                              > back towards your shoulder after you have released.
                              > If your hand sometimes
                              > moves back towards the bow as you release you loose
                              > a great deal of speed.
                              >
                              > > Also, I don't believe that I would have no
                              > advantage with a higher
                              > > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight
                              > more
                              > > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to
                              > hit a target? It's like
                              > > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                              >
                              > The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does
                              > help with shooting at
                              > unknown distances. The difference between elevation
                              > at fairly similar
                              > distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect
                              > on your distance
                              > estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I
                              > echo the worry about
                              > going to strong before getting your form down pat.
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                              > > Alestra
                              >
                              > Good luck and keep on shooting.
                              >
                              > Nest
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter
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                            • Chad Wilson
                              ... 20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well! ... tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Sharon Macielinski
                                <ariel_elronds_daughter@y...> wrote:
                                > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the
                                20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                                >
                                > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to
                                tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no
                                problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because
                                I wanted a heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out
                                the "arc" thing in order to hit the target accurately.

                                You need a way of gaining more arrow speed.

                                One way is to decrease the overall weight of your arrows while still
                                designing to fly in a balanced way. All of my bolts and arrows are
                                untreated. I stopped putting finishing seal on them and it produced
                                some much lighter arrows. You could go as far as buying 100 shafts
                                and then weight them all after cutting them down to use only the
                                lightest of the bunch, without sacrificing spine weight.

                                Another way is to increase the power stroke. The power stroke is the
                                part of the shooting process where the bow's string is pushing on the
                                arrow. With your shorter draw, you are sacrificing much of your
                                power stroke.

                                I wonder if you switched to a lighter longbow so you can pull a
                                longer arrow would help. As strange as it sounds, you could in
                                theory shoot a 25# longbow using longer arrows and have it shoot
                                faster than your 35# longbow with a shorter draw.

                                When I shoot a handbow, my arrows are 29". And I use all 29" of the
                                arrow.

                                -Caedmon
                              • Russ Sheldon
                                Greetings, A couple of things to remember. 1) Without some kind of trigger release ( ie using just your hand ) everyone will pluck the string sometime. Even
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Greetings,
                                  A couple of things to remember.
                                  1) Without some kind of trigger release ( ie using just your hand ) everyone
                                  will pluck the string sometime. Even the best archer. Period.
                                  2) There are more than one release method , static, active and what I call
                                  open release. All have there pro's and con's and none of them are the be all
                                  and end all of shooting. Use the one your most comfortable with.
                                  Static is where you anchor your hand and just release your fingers.
                                  I find that errors in your release using a static release can be magnified
                                  by a lighter poundage bow. Also hard to get a nice fast release with the
                                  string without a lot of practice. If you master this release though you will
                                  get very good scores for all ranges of archery.
                                  Active release requires you to anchor your hand and then pull and
                                  release the string. I find that you get faster release with the string but
                                  it is hard to get a consistent speed with the release for longer yardage
                                  shots. Also easier to pluck using this method.
                                  Open release ( may have other names ) has your hand follow the
                                  release of the string for a few inches. Very hard to do right unless your
                                  using really high poundage bows. Your hand just gets in the way and slows
                                  down the release.
                                  3) Be it a glove, finger tab, or just your fingers all must be inspected to
                                  help better your release. A beat up grubby glove or finger tab can cause
                                  your string to hang or not roll right on your release. These need to be
                                  replaced when they begin to get worn. Trouble is they always seem to die
                                  just as they get broken in just right. Sigh! As for your fingers, calluses
                                  that will form may help protect your fingers from blisters but they may also
                                  cause areas on your fingers to catch the string. You may have to smooth or
                                  scrape these down periodically.
                                  4) Do not expect to be shooting consistently for at least 4 to 6 months with
                                  regular practice, some people are faster. Your muscles need to develop a
                                  memory and I usually find that it takes some people that long for everything
                                  to click. On a 60cm target I usually tell my students to be quite happy to
                                  get all there arrows on the paper first. Also its better to get a nice tight
                                  grouping even off the page consistently than have your arrows looking like
                                  they were shot all over the place with a few in well scoring locations on
                                  the target. The person with the tight group can eventually be taught to
                                  change his aiming point and move the group onto the target thus netting
                                  him/her a very nice score.

                                  Lastly remember in all of this to Have fun.

                                  Hope this helps.

                                  Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Sharon Macielinski" <ariel_elronds_daughter@...>
                                  To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:50 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice


                                  >
                                  > Thanks for the info! Maybe I just hadn't been taught
                                  > this type of release yet? I will have to ask... I was
                                  > so happy that I stopped plucking! When I stopped
                                  > plucking I was able to get so much more accurate at
                                  > 10-20 yard ranges. I anchor my middle finger in
                                  > corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
                                  > stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
                                  > release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
                                  > to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
                                  > told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
                                  > you don't pluck!
                                  >
                                  > I will try a faster release this afternoon, although I
                                  > can only shoot at a 10-15 yard distance here... I
                                  > should be able to tell if the arrows are flying faster
                                  > though by how far they get stuck in the target! :)
                                  >
                                  > Thanks again... I like the baby powder cornstarch idea
                                  > too.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > Alestra
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- Nest verch Tangwistel <eastarch@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're
                                  > > stuck with the 20/30/40
                                  > > > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh
                                  > > well!
                                  > >
                                  > > Why don't the timed ends make sense?
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my
                                  > > instructor is trying to tell
                                  > > > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should
                                  > > have no problems
                                  > > > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been
                                  > > fussing because I wanted a
                                  > > > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out
                                  > > the "arc" thing in
                                  > > > order to hit the target accurately.
                                  > >
                                  > > The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25
                                  > > pounds. The only problem I
                                  > > have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow
                                  > > hits the ceiling in out
                                  > > indoor range before you can get enough arc in the
                                  > > trajectory to reach the
                                  > > target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with
                                  > > a 20 pound bow at
                                  > > Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in
                                  > > the clout or the front
                                  > > wall. so it can be done.
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my
                                  > > difficulty is figuring
                                  > > > out how far above the target to aim... even with a
                                  > > good anchor
                                  > > > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY
                                  > > HINTS?
                                  > > >
                                  > > I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds
                                  > > like you are loosing
                                  > > critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing.
                                  > > A good follow through
                                  > > may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to
                                  > > me that you should
                                  > > never completely come to a halt when getting to your
                                  > > anchor point. Go back
                                  > > to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue
                                  > > pulling until you are
                                  > > ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand
                                  > > should continue moving
                                  > > back towards your shoulder after you have released.
                                  > > If your hand sometimes
                                  > > moves back towards the bow as you release you loose
                                  > > a great deal of speed.
                                  > >
                                  > > > Also, I don't believe that I would have no
                                  > > advantage with a higher
                                  > > > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight
                                  > > more
                                  > > > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to
                                  > > hit a target? It's like
                                  > > > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                                  > >
                                  > > The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does
                                  > > help with shooting at
                                  > > unknown distances. The difference between elevation
                                  > > at fairly similar
                                  > > distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect
                                  > > on your distance
                                  > > estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I
                                  > > echo the worry about
                                  > > going to strong before getting your form down pat.
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                                  > > > Alestra
                                  > >
                                  > > Good luck and keep on shooting.
                                  > >
                                  > > Nest
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > _______________________________
                                  > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                  > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter
                                  > > now.
                                  > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
                                  > >
                                  > >
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                                  > > Medieval Mart
                                  > > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's
                                  > > http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                                  > > leave this list]
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                                  > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                  ... that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and am
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 1, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell me
                                    that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30
                                    and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and
                                    am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the
                                    target accurately.

                                    First befor I give any advice I need to know more about your current skill
                                    level. Like how long have you been shooting, how many arrows a week you
                                    shoot for practice, have you switched from other forms of archery? How did
                                    you findout you had random arrow speed? Is your longbow a fiberglass
                                    American longbow or a selfwood bow?

                                    I to do not undersand the comment that a crossbow has the same advantage as
                                    a higher poundage bow. It only takes a 60-70lb crossbow to equal the "arc"
                                    of a 25-30 lb longbow. The crossbow has the same dis-advantage of having to
                                    figure out the "arc". The advantage is that a crossbow has the exact same
                                    release every time. Yes a higher poundage crossbow(just like a high
                                    poundage longbow) will have less of an "arc" to a set distance than a lower
                                    poundage bow, but it still has an "arc".

                                    James Cunningham

                                    > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out
                                    how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I
                                    get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                                    >
                                    > Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
                                    poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent
                                    than one that has to arc to hit a target? It's like a crossbow would have
                                    no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                                  • Mike Hornbaker
                                    I might suggest there is a 4th method of release. I learned this when learning the longbow, read in a book, and also found corroboration in the Toxophilius.
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I might suggest there is a 4th method of release. I learned this when
                                      learning the longbow, read in a book, and also found corroboration in
                                      the Toxophilius. Once at your anchor point, yourelax the fingers just
                                      ENOUGH so that the pressure on the string bumps the fingers out of its
                                      way at the same time the hand goes back a little farther along the same
                                      line. That extra motion is about 1/2 inch of necessary motion for the
                                      fingers and string to clear each other. No creeping forward, no exploding
                                      fingers away from the string, just a clean sharp release. The way I know
                                      I have done this correctly is that my fingers never completely lose
                                      contact with my cheek, just lose a bit of pressure as i go back from the
                                      anchor point. I call this "stroking the cheek."

                                      The words, in general , From the Toxophilius are that a person watching
                                      the release sees very little and the archer feels next to nothing. This
                                      fits well with the fingers going backward at the same time the string
                                      goes forward in a combined distance of 1/2 inch.

                                      If your ability to aim is done well, adding the above to it will jump
                                      your scores and efficiency.

                                      Michael vanBergen






                                      On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:47:05 -0400 "Russ Sheldon" <sheldon@...>
                                      writes:
                                      > Greetings,
                                      > A couple of things to remember.
                                      > 1) Without some kind of trigger release ( ie using just your hand )
                                      > everyone
                                      > will pluck the string sometime. Even the best archer. Period.
                                      > 2) There are more than one release method , static, active and what
                                      > I call
                                      > open release. All have there pro's and con's and none of them are
                                      > the be all
                                      > and end all of shooting. Use the one your most comfortable with.
                                      > Static is where you anchor your hand and just release your
                                      > fingers.
                                      > I find that errors in your release using a static release can be
                                      > magnified
                                      > by a lighter poundage bow. Also hard to get a nice fast release with
                                      > the
                                      > string without a lot of practice. If you master this release though
                                      > you will
                                      > get very good scores for all ranges of archery.
                                      > Active release requires you to anchor your hand and then
                                      > pull and
                                      > release the string. I find that you get faster release with the
                                      > string but
                                      > it is hard to get a consistent speed with the release for longer
                                      > yardage
                                      > shots. Also easier to pluck using this method.
                                      > Open release ( may have other names ) has your hand follow
                                      > the
                                      > release of the string for a few inches. Very hard to do right unless
                                      > your
                                      > using really high poundage bows. Your hand just gets in the way and
                                      > slows
                                      > down the release.
                                      > 3) Be it a glove, finger tab, or just your fingers all must be
                                      > inspected to
                                      > help better your release. A beat up grubby glove or finger tab can
                                      > cause
                                      > your string to hang or not roll right on your release. These need to
                                      > be
                                      > replaced when they begin to get worn. Trouble is they always seem to
                                      > die
                                      > just as they get broken in just right. Sigh! As for your fingers,
                                      > calluses
                                      > that will form may help protect your fingers from blisters but they
                                      > may also
                                      > cause areas on your fingers to catch the string. You may have to
                                      > smooth or
                                      > scrape these down periodically.
                                      > 4) Do not expect to be shooting consistently for at least 4 to 6
                                      > months with
                                      > regular practice, some people are faster. Your muscles need to
                                      > develop a
                                      > memory and I usually find that it takes some people that long for
                                      > everything
                                      > to click. On a 60cm target I usually tell my students to be quite
                                      > happy to
                                      > get all there arrows on the paper first. Also its better to get a
                                      > nice tight
                                      > grouping even off the page consistently than have your arrows
                                      > looking like
                                      > they were shot all over the place with a few in well scoring
                                      > locations on
                                      > the target. The person with the tight group can eventually be taught
                                      > to
                                      > change his aiming point and move the group onto the target thus
                                      > netting
                                      > him/her a very nice score.
                                      >
                                      > Lastly remember in all of this to Have fun.
                                      >
                                      > Hope this helps.
                                      >
                                      > Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Sharon Macielinski" <ariel_elronds_daughter@...>
                                      > To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:50 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks for the info! Maybe I just hadn't been taught
                                      > > this type of release yet? I will have to ask... I was
                                      > > so happy that I stopped plucking! When I stopped
                                      > > plucking I was able to get so much more accurate at
                                      > > 10-20 yard ranges. I anchor my middle finger in
                                      > > corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
                                      > > stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
                                      > > release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
                                      > > to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
                                      > > told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
                                      > > you don't pluck!
                                      > >
                                      > > I will try a faster release this afternoon, although I
                                      > > can only shoot at a 10-15 yard distance here... I
                                      > > should be able to tell if the arrows are flying faster
                                      > > though by how far they get stuck in the target! :)
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks again... I like the baby powder cornstarch idea
                                      > > too.
                                      > >
                                      > > Cheers,
                                      > > Alestra
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- Nest verch Tangwistel <eastarch@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're
                                      > > > stuck with the 20/30/40
                                      > > > > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh
                                      > > > well!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Why don't the timed ends make sense?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my
                                      > > > instructor is trying to tell
                                      > > > > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should
                                      > > > have no problems
                                      > > > > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been
                                      > > > fussing because I wanted a
                                      > > > > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out
                                      > > > the "arc" thing in
                                      > > > > order to hit the target accurately.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25
                                      > > > pounds. The only problem I
                                      > > > have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow
                                      > > > hits the ceiling in out
                                      > > > indoor range before you can get enough arc in the
                                      > > > trajectory to reach the
                                      > > > target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with
                                      > > > a 20 pound bow at
                                      > > > Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in
                                      > > > the clout or the front
                                      > > > wall. so it can be done.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my
                                      > > > difficulty is figuring
                                      > > > > out how far above the target to aim... even with a
                                      > > > good anchor
                                      > > > > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY
                                      > > > HINTS?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds
                                      > > > like you are loosing
                                      > > > critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing.
                                      > > > A good follow through
                                      > > > may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to
                                      > > > me that you should
                                      > > > never completely come to a halt when getting to your
                                      > > > anchor point. Go back
                                      > > > to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue
                                      > > > pulling until you are
                                      > > > ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand
                                      > > > should continue moving
                                      > > > back towards your shoulder after you have released.
                                      > > > If your hand sometimes
                                      > > > moves back towards the bow as you release you loose
                                      > > > a great deal of speed.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > Also, I don't believe that I would have no
                                      > > > advantage with a higher
                                      > > > > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight
                                      > > > more
                                      > > > > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to
                                      > > > hit a target? It's like
                                      > > > > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does
                                      > > > help with shooting at
                                      > > > unknown distances. The difference between elevation
                                      > > > at fairly similar
                                      > > > distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect
                                      > > > on your distance
                                      > > > estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I
                                      > > > echo the worry about
                                      > > > going to strong before getting your form down pat.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                                      > > > > Alestra
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Good luck and keep on shooting.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Nest
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
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                                    • Brad Boda d'Aylward
                                      Random arrow speeds??? Something few people consider. Are you using snap nocks or speed nocks?? Snap nocks need pressure to push the back of the arrow onto
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
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                                        Random arrow speeds???

                                        Something few people consider. Are you using 'snap' nocks or 'speed' nocks??

                                        Snap nocks need pressure to push the back of the arrow onto the string with
                                        a slight click. Unless these particular type of nocks have been filed to
                                        grasp the string with the exact same pressure, one arrow will fly freely
                                        while the next will experience a 'braking' effect as the snap nock hangs on
                                        to the string a second longer than the others.

                                        I always suggest speed nocks (there's another name for them) as they will be
                                        more consistant in the point which they allow the arrow to leave the string.

                                        Everything else being consistant, this should eliminate some of the arrows
                                        dropping sooner than others.

                                        Brad

                                        Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice


                                        >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
                                        business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out
                                        how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I
                                        get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Thanks as always for all the great advice!
                                        >Alestra
                                        >
                                      • Nest verch Tangwistel
                                        What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it is not so much a problem with the archer at all but with the equipment. I have had supposedly
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
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                                          What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it is not
                                          so much a problem with the archer at all but with the equipment. I have
                                          had supposedly professionally made arrows which differed in weight as much
                                          as 150 grains between them, and 20 pounds spine weight. That can add a lot
                                          of randomness to shots. Especially at longer distances.

                                          Nest
                                          --- Brad Boda d'Aylward <bradb@...> wrote:

                                          > Random arrow speeds???
                                          >




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                                        • Guy Taylor
                                          This is where getting your arrows from a reputable maker who states that his or her arrows are weight matched and hand spined shows up. Keep in mind that not
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 2, 2004
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                                            This is where getting your arrows from a reputable maker who states
                                            that his or her arrows are weight matched and hand spined shows up.

                                            Keep in mind that not everyone matches the arrows they sell. If
                                            they do not say that they are matched, you got exactly what you
                                            payed for. If you purchased them from F/S Archery in California,
                                            you got exactly what you payed for, but not what they advertise.

                                            Guy

                                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Nest verch Tangwistel
                                            <eastarch@y...> wrote:
                                            > What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it
                                            >is not so much a problem with the archer at all but with the
                                            >equipment. I have had supposedly professionally made arrows which
                                            >differed in weight as much as 150 grains between them, and 20
                                            >pounds spine weight. That can add a lot of randomness to shots.
                                            >Especially at longer distances.
                                            >
                                            > Nest
                                          • Carl West
                                            ... I anchor similarly, forefinger behind upper canine, at the gum. String in the finger joints. Thumb and little finger touching. To release, I press the the
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Sep 8, 2004
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                                              Sharon Macielinski wrote:

                                              > ... I anchor my middle finger in
                                              > corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
                                              > stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
                                              > release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
                                              > to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
                                              > told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
                                              > you don't pluck!

                                              I anchor similarly, forefinger behind upper canine, at the gum. String
                                              in the finger joints. Thumb and little finger touching. To release, I
                                              press the the hand against the face. This straightens the finger tips,
                                              away goes the arrow. No chance to pluck. Gotta keep the mustache trimmed
                                              though. Works better with stronger bows.



                                              -- Fritz

                                              Carl West
                                              mailto:carl.west@...
                                              http://carl.west.home.comcast.net
                                            • Sharon Macielinski
                                              Hi. Thanks for the comments. Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows hit better, YES! Been working with my random bow (a self-bow
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Sep 8, 2004
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                                                Hi. Thanks for the comments.

                                                Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows hit better, YES!

                                                Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn shelf) for another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a couple times by the bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it BITES (slaps above the brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace height) the cherry/hickory is very sensitive to all the humidity (I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is part of the problem. I get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it bites, I've had to use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my shoulder to roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow reduces the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus the varied speeds!

                                                And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.

                                                I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to be for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20# recurve bow!

                                                Wish me luck!
                                                Alestra
                                                PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also had same prob.

                                                John Rossignol <giguette@...> wrote:
                                                Sharon Macielinski wrote:

                                                >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40 business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                                                >
                                                >

                                                Actually, timed shoots make a lot of sense, if you think historically.
                                                Imagine the enemy charging your firing line, and they are going to
                                                reach you in a few seconds unless you shoot them all...

                                                As far as the 20/30/40-yard targets...well, you have to learn to walk
                                                before you can run. Actually, one of the best things you can do as a
                                                beginner is to not worry about aiming at a target at all, but just
                                                practice your draw, anchor, and release.

                                                >Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the target accurately.
                                                >

                                                If you are really only drawing 26 pounds, then the politest way I can
                                                put this is to say that your instructor is not being very realistic.
                                                Reaching the target is not the same thing as hitting it, and I have
                                                seen a lot of arrows from weak bows simply bounce off the hay bales at
                                                30 and 40 yards even when they did hit them. See my comments below your
                                                bottom paragraph.

                                                >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                                                >

                                                Aiming high above the target is tough, because you seldom have anything
                                                handy up in the sky to use as an aiming point, and it's easy to lose
                                                track of where the target is. What many archers do in this situation is
                                                to use an anchor point on their chest or stomach -- a technique commonly
                                                used in clout shooting. This allows them to sight over the tip of a
                                                steeply-angled arrow without having to look way up into the sky.
                                                Exactly how high to aim is something you will have to work out by trial
                                                and error, since every bow and person is different.

                                                If you are truly getting *random* arrow speeds, then I suspect that your
                                                draw, anchor, and release are not as consistent as you think. A high
                                                degree of consistency in these actions is the very foundation of good
                                                archery, and generally takes years of practice to achieve. Even very
                                                small variations can cause quite an effect on the flight of an arrow.

                                                The only other random factors affecting arrow speed would be the wind,
                                                and maybe disintegrating equipment (unlikely). A non-random factor
                                                could be mismatched arrows, especially with differences in spine and/or
                                                fletching. I say non-random because, if all other factors are uniform,
                                                the same arrow should fly approximately the same every time you shoot
                                                it. Unless the wind is gusting, though, the greatest source of
                                                randomness is the archer.

                                                >Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to hit a target?
                                                >

                                                You are entirely correct in thinking that higher arrow velocity should
                                                increase your accuracy, and for two main reasons.

                                                The first is that a faster arrow can reach a given target with a flatter
                                                trajectory than can a slower arrow ( I assume that is what you mean by
                                                "an arrow that flies straight"). The advantage here is that, as you
                                                have noted, it makes aiming much easier -- no aiming up in the sky to
                                                reach targets that are only 40 yards away.

                                                The second is that a faster arrow will be less affected by wind. There
                                                are three aspects of this. 1) Since the faster arrow will be in the air
                                                for a shorter time before reaching the target, there is less time for
                                                the prevailing wind to act upon it. 2) Since it will be in the air for
                                                a shorter time, there is less chance that it will be affected by a
                                                *change* in the wind that occurs while it is in flight. We can learn to
                                                compensate for steady wind, but gusts and lulls are unpredictable. 3)
                                                An arrow shot in a high arc is often exposed to wind of greater force
                                                and different direction that the wind closer to the ground.

                                                Except for the wind factor, I can't think of anything that would make a
                                                faster arrow inherently more consistent than a slower one.
                                                Inconsistency is almost always due to the archer.

                                                When trying to get your arrows to fly faster, it is important to
                                                remember that a heavier draw weight is only one contributing factor.
                                                Another is the efficiency of the bow -- how fast it throws the arrow
                                                per pound of draw weight. Some bow designs are more efficient than
                                                others, and within any particular design some individual bows are more
                                                efficient than others because of the materials and craftsmanship
                                                involved. If you can, try some different types of bow. Some of the
                                                recurved designs are not only more efficient than a longbow, but are
                                                actually much easier to draw at the same poundage.

                                                Another thing you can do is to use an anchor point which gives you a
                                                longer draw length, i.e. to your cheek or your ear instead of your chin.
                                                Traditional Japanese archers draw all the way to the shoulder. A
                                                longer draw generally increases the effective draw weight of a bow.

                                                Arrow weight also has an effect on arrow velocity, but it can be pro or
                                                con according to distance and shooting conditions. The most important
                                                thing, as far as weight, is that your arrows all be the same.

                                                All this being said, it is still very important to not use a bow that is
                                                too heavy for you *right now*. You can injure yourself, and you can
                                                develop very bad form and habits. Most of us wish we could shoot
                                                heavier bows, but we have to let reality be our guide. Your muscles
                                                will gain strength fairly rapidly if you draw your bow a lot, but it
                                                doesn't do to anticipate too much. The best rule of thumb that I have
                                                heard for choosing a good draw weight is one posted on this list by
                                                Carolus Eulenhorst, so I will quote him here: "As to poundage, the best
                                                thing is to go to practice and try pulling different bows. Find a weight
                                                you can just hold at full draw for ten seconds. if you can hold longer
                                                the you will outgrow the bow quickly and if you can't hold that long the
                                                bow is too heavy for you (overbowed)."

                                                If you are serious about archery, please believe me that in the early
                                                stages it is actually far more important for you to work on your draw,
                                                anchor, and release than it is to hit 40-yard targets -- or any targets,
                                                for that matter. And you should do it with a bow that you can draw
                                                easily. I know that doesn't sound very exciting, but it will really pay
                                                off.

                                                >It's like a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                                                >
                                                >
                                                Sorry, I don't understand this comment.

                                                John




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                                              • Carolus Eulenhorst
                                                Try this and see if it doesn t help the bite. Take your normal stance at the line, extend your bow arm toward the target, turn the arm so that the elbow
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                                                  Try this and see if it doesn't help the bite. Take your normal stance at
                                                  the line, extend your bow arm toward the target, turn the arm so that the
                                                  elbow points horizontal (when the elbow is flexed the arm should move in
                                                  a plane parallel with the ground), and then rotate the wrist to put the
                                                  hand at a slight angle down on the outside of the arm. It will probably
                                                  feel really awkward at first and may even hurt a little but you will get
                                                  used to it. Then grasp the bow lightly and draw it with your arm
                                                  returning to this position at full draw. This will move the bulk of your
                                                  forearm muscle out of the way of the string, solidify the shoulder, and
                                                  give a better draw.
                                                  Carolus

                                                  On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Sharon Macielinski
                                                  <ariel_elronds_daughter@...> writes:
                                                  > Hi. Thanks for the comments.
                                                  >
                                                  > Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows
                                                  > hit better, YES!
                                                  >
                                                  > Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn
                                                  > shelf) for another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a
                                                  > couple times by the bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it
                                                  > BITES (slaps above the brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace
                                                  > height) the cherry/hickory is very sensitive to all the humidity
                                                  > (I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is part of the problem. I
                                                  > get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it bites, I've had to
                                                  > use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my shoulder to
                                                  > roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow reduces
                                                  > the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been
                                                  > bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus
                                                  > the varied speeds!
                                                  >
                                                  > And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.
                                                  >
                                                  > I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to
                                                  > be for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20#
                                                  > recurve bow!
                                                  >
                                                  > Wish me luck!
                                                  > Alestra
                                                  > PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also
                                                  > had same prob.

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                                                • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                                                  Greetings, The common complaint about having the string slap on release has been covered many times here, and many have gone into great detail describing the
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                                                    Greetings,
                                                    The common complaint about having the string slap on release has
                                                    been covered many times here, and many have gone into great detail
                                                    describing the rotation of a woman's arm as oppoesed to a man's,
                                                    yadayada......
                                                    One way that will cure this problem for good is to learn how to
                                                    hold the longbow the right way; it's the way I was taught back in the
                                                    days that rocks were still soft. As you grip the longbow, the second
                                                    knuckle down on the index finger should line up directly with the second
                                                    knuckle of the thumb, parallel to the path of the arrow shaft . You use
                                                    this as a way of pointing at the target...get used to this feeling. To
                                                    do this, you will not be completely straightening and locking your bow
                                                    arm and will always have a soft elbow joint (excellent for follow
                                                    through, kind of like having a completely natural built-in stabilizer
                                                    using only that which the good Lord gave you when you
                                                    were born ;-) ) Voila! No more bowstring slaps.
                                                    BTW I always wear a bracer anyway because nocks can break and
                                                    things can always happen. Better safe than sorry. I shoot a very heavy
                                                    draw weight bow, and it can hurt a whole lot with a light draw weight
                                                    bow.
                                                    My two pense,
                                                    -Geoffrei
                                                  • John Rossignol
                                                    I hope Carolus advice helps you out, Alestra. I m sure his idea is good, I m just having a little trouble visualizing what he means about the wrist. By the
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                                                      I hope Carolus' advice helps you out, Alestra. I'm sure his idea is
                                                      good, I'm just having a little trouble visualizing what he means about
                                                      the wrist.

                                                      By the way, you can buy a bracer that should cover the whole "danger
                                                      zone" of your bow arm. I bought one like that to lend people when I am
                                                      introducing them to archery. It is 13" long, black leather with what
                                                      feels like tough plastic rods sewn inside. It fastens with elastic and
                                                      velcro, and it bends at the elbow. It's not "period", of course, but it
                                                      is not obtrusive, and when your arm is getting massacred, who cares,
                                                      anyhow? I didn't get it at a "traditional archery" store -- there
                                                      aren't any right around where I live, and I needed this bracer in a
                                                      hurry. It was actually just a lucky find in amongst the ultra-modern
                                                      and camouflage stuff, but it has worked out pretty well. Unfortunately
                                                      I don't remember the brand name. And you know, there is no law against
                                                      padding the inside of your bracer, either (isn't that why sleeves were
                                                      invented?)

                                                      Of course, super-bracers and extra padding should only be stop-gap
                                                      measures, to use until you can solve the problem with good technique and
                                                      compatible equipment. But in the meantime -- hey, they can help you
                                                      have fun and shoot the bow without killing yourself.

                                                      That twisted limb on your bow is almost certainly causing some of your
                                                      problems. By the way, 7" is not all that high a brace height, and that
                                                      does make it easier to slap your arm with the string. My first bow has
                                                      a brace height just over 7" with the strings I used, and I got some
                                                      really terrific bruises before I got a decent bracer and, more
                                                      importantly, learned to hold my arm correctly. Of course, if you used a
                                                      shorter string to get a higher (and "safer") brace height, that would
                                                      shorten your power stroke, and you certainly don't want do that with
                                                      such a light bow.

                                                      And yes, Good Luck in your competition, but remember -- however it goes,
                                                      the object is always to Have Fun. I know we can lose sight of that
                                                      sometimes, but it should always be our goal. So if your equipment
                                                      really spoils this one for you, at least use it as an opportunity to lay
                                                      the foundation for Having Fun in the future: by getting some experience
                                                      with other bows. After a competition is over, the Range Marshal will
                                                      usually open the range for practice. If there are archers there with
                                                      bows in your general strength range, ask if you can try shooting them.
                                                      Most archers I have met are very generous about this. See if other
                                                      bows give you the same problems as your bow. Compare the feel of
                                                      different bows as you draw and release, and try to find what might be a
                                                      better draw weight for you. You might also find a particular design or
                                                      brand that you especially like.

                                                      Good luck. I hope some of that helps.

                                                      John


                                                      Carolus Eulenhorst wrote:

                                                      >Try this and see if it doesn't help the bite. Take your normal stance at
                                                      >the line, extend your bow arm toward the target, turn the arm so that the
                                                      >elbow points horizontal (when the elbow is flexed the arm should move in
                                                      >a plane parallel with the ground), and then rotate the wrist to put the
                                                      >hand at a slight angle down on the outside of the arm. It will probably
                                                      >feel really awkward at first and may even hurt a little but you will get
                                                      >used to it. Then grasp the bow lightly and draw it with your arm
                                                      >returning to this position at full draw. This will move the bulk of your
                                                      >forearm muscle out of the way of the string, solidify the shoulder, and
                                                      >give a better draw.
                                                      >Carolus
                                                      >
                                                      >On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Sharon Macielinski
                                                      ><ariel_elronds_daughter@...> writes:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >>Hi. Thanks for the comments.
                                                      >>
                                                      >>Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows
                                                      >>hit better, YES!
                                                      >>
                                                      >>Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn
                                                      >>shelf) for another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a
                                                      >>couple times by the bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it
                                                      >>BITES (slaps above the brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace
                                                      >>height) the cherry/hickory is very sensitive to all the humidity
                                                      >>(I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is part of the problem. I
                                                      >>get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it bites, I've had to
                                                      >>use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my shoulder to
                                                      >>roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow reduces
                                                      >>the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been
                                                      >>bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus
                                                      >>the varied speeds!
                                                      >>
                                                      >>And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.
                                                      >>
                                                      >>I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to
                                                      >>be for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20#
                                                      >>recurve bow!
                                                      >>
                                                      >>Wish me luck!
                                                      >>Alestra
                                                      >>PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also
                                                      >>had same prob.
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                    • Carolus Eulenhorst
                                                      It is what is referred to as a high wrist position. A low wrist position has the hand vertical with the bow resting heavily on the fleshy part of the hand
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                                                        It is what is referred to as a high wrist position. A low wrist position
                                                        has the hand vertical with the bow resting heavily on the fleshy part of
                                                        the hand below the thumb. Many people use this position, especially with
                                                        long bow. The high wrist moves the bow to the web of the thumb removing
                                                        much of the pressure from the hand. It makes the bow "float" in the
                                                        grip, eliminates much tendency to torque it, and lets the arm shift
                                                        slightly out of the path of the string. If you hold your arm out and
                                                        pronate the elbow (the first step I mentioned) you will find your hand
                                                        naturally tends to take a position where the palm is parallel with the
                                                        ground. This is too high. Rotate the little finger back down to a
                                                        comfortable position (45 to 60 degrees down) without changing the elbow
                                                        position and everything should drop into place.

                                                        I have a virtually identical bracer. It was made by Saunders. There are
                                                        others out there, too.
                                                        Carolus

                                                        On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:34:11 -0700 John Rossignol <giguette@...>
                                                        writes:
                                                        > I hope Carolus' advice helps you out, Alestra. I'm sure his idea is
                                                        >
                                                        > good, I'm just having a little trouble visualizing what he means
                                                        > about
                                                        > the wrist.
                                                        >
                                                        > By the way, you can buy a bracer that should cover the whole "danger
                                                        >
                                                        > zone" of your bow arm. I bought one like that to lend people when I
                                                        > am
                                                        > introducing them to archery. It is 13" long, black leather with
                                                        > what
                                                        > feels like tough plastic rods sewn inside. It fastens with elastic
                                                        > and
                                                        > velcro, and it bends at the elbow. It's not "period", of course,
                                                        > but it
                                                        > is not obtrusive, and when your arm is getting massacred, who cares,
                                                        >
                                                        > anyhow? I didn't get it at a "traditional archery" store -- there
                                                        > aren't any right around where I live, and I needed this bracer in a
                                                        >
                                                        > hurry. It was actually just a lucky find in amongst the
                                                        > ultra-modern
                                                        > and camouflage stuff, but it has worked out pretty well.
                                                        > Unfortunately
                                                        > I don't remember the brand name. And you know, there is no law
                                                        > against
                                                        > padding the inside of your bracer, either (isn't that why sleeves
                                                        > were
                                                        > invented?)
                                                        >
                                                        > Of course, super-bracers and extra padding should only be stop-gap
                                                        > measures, to use until you can solve the problem with good technique
                                                        > and
                                                        > compatible equipment. But in the meantime -- hey, they can help you
                                                        >
                                                        > have fun and shoot the bow without killing yourself.
                                                        >
                                                        > That twisted limb on your bow is almost certainly causing some of
                                                        > your
                                                        > problems. By the way, 7" is not all that high a brace height, and
                                                        > that
                                                        > does make it easier to slap your arm with the string. My first bow
                                                        > has
                                                        > a brace height just over 7" with the strings I used, and I got some
                                                        >
                                                        > really terrific bruises before I got a decent bracer and, more
                                                        > importantly, learned to hold my arm correctly. Of course, if you
                                                        > used a
                                                        > shorter string to get a higher (and "safer") brace height, that
                                                        > would
                                                        > orten your power stroke, and you certainly don't want do that with
                                                        > such a light bow.
                                                        >
                                                        > And yes, Good Luck in your competition, but remember -- however it
                                                        > goes,
                                                        > the object is always to Have Fun. I know we can lose sight of that
                                                        >
                                                        > sometimes, but it should always be our goal. So if your equipment
                                                        > really spoils this one for you, at least use it as an opportunity to
                                                        > lay
                                                        > the foundation for Having Fun in the future: by getting some
                                                        > experience
                                                        > with other bows. After a competition is over, the Range Marshal
                                                        > will
                                                        > usually open the range for practice. If there are archers there
                                                        > with
                                                        > bows in your general strength range, ask if you can try shooting
                                                        > them.
                                                        > Most archers I have met are very generous about this. See if other
                                                        >
                                                        > bows give you the same problems as your bow. Compare the feel of
                                                        > different bows as you draw and release, and try to find what might
                                                        > be a
                                                        > better draw weight for you. You might also find a particular design
                                                        > or
                                                        > brand that you especially like.
                                                        >
                                                        > Good luck. I hope some of that helps.
                                                        >
                                                        > John

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                                                      • John Rossignol
                                                        Oh, yes, thanks. I think I see what you mean. John
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                                                          Oh, yes, thanks. I think I see what you mean.

                                                          John

                                                          Carolus Eulenhorst wrote:

                                                          >It is what is referred to as a high wrist position. A low wrist position
                                                          >has the hand vertical with the bow resting heavily on the fleshy part of
                                                          >the hand below the thumb. Many people use this position, especially with
                                                          >long bow. The high wrist moves the bow to the web of the thumb removing
                                                          >much of the pressure from the hand. It makes the bow "float" in the
                                                          >grip, eliminates much tendency to torque it, and lets the arm shift
                                                          >slightly out of the path of the string. If you hold your arm out and
                                                          >pronate the elbow (the first step I mentioned) you will find your hand
                                                          >naturally tends to take a position where the palm is parallel with the
                                                          >ground. This is too high. Rotate the little finger back down to a
                                                          >comfortable position (45 to 60 degrees down) without changing the elbow
                                                          >position and everything should drop into place.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                                          A low poundage(under 50LB) wood longbow is the hardest bow to shoot well. It bits, kicks, and turns weak if held too long. It will be extremly fustrating to
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Sep 9, 2004
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                                                            A low poundage(under 50LB) wood longbow is the hardest bow to shoot well. It
                                                            bits, kicks, and turns weak if held too long. It will be extremly fustrating
                                                            to get it to shoot well but if you can master it all other bows will be easy
                                                            to shoot by comparison. Being that it is a selfwood/laminated wood bow and
                                                            that you are "not drawing to a consistent bend" that is the two main causes
                                                            for varying arrows speeds. Have fun shooting. The people who know bows will
                                                            know how hard you are working to get your bow to shoot.

                                                            James Cunningham

                                                            P.S. Get a bracer big enough to protect your arm.
                                                            The twist in the limb is not a big thing in a longbow... in a recurve...
                                                            could be.

                                                            > Hi. Thanks for the comments.
                                                            >
                                                            > Crossbow comment had to do with speed of arrow again. Faster arrows hit
                                                            better, YES!
                                                            >
                                                            > Been working with my random bow (a self-bow with attached horn shelf) for
                                                            another week now... the brace height has been adjusted a couple times by the
                                                            bowyer... he's having trouble shooting it... it BITES (slaps above the
                                                            brace) too often... (even at a 7" brace height) the cherry/hickory is very
                                                            sensitive to all the humidity (I've also noticed a twist in the limb) is
                                                            part of the problem. I get terrible hand shock from it too. Because it
                                                            bites, I've had to use a slightly bent elbow, just turning my arm causes my
                                                            shoulder to roll forward (bad form, causes aches). Bending the elbow
                                                            reduces the draw length! AND, depending on how tired or if I've just been
                                                            bitten or whatever... I am not drawing to a consistent bend. Thus the
                                                            varied speeds!
                                                            >
                                                            > And, yes I can draw that bow for much longer than 10 seconds.
                                                            >
                                                            > I am competing with this I THINK in 10 days... it is either going to be
                                                            for joke/fun or I'm toying with switching to my daughter's 20# recurve bow!
                                                            >
                                                            > Wish me luck!
                                                            > Alestra
                                                            > PS> the biting is not my plucking; my instructor w/20 yrs exp. also had
                                                            same prob.
                                                            >
                                                            > John Rossignol <giguette@...> wrote:
                                                            > Sharon Macielinski wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
                                                            business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            > Actually, timed shoots make a lot of sense, if you think historically.
                                                            > Imagine the enemy charging your firing line, and they are going to
                                                            > reach you in a few seconds unless you shoot them all...
                                                            >
                                                            > As far as the 20/30/40-yard targets...well, you have to learn to walk
                                                            > before you can run. Actually, one of the best things you can do as a
                                                            > beginner is to not worry about aiming at a target at all, but just
                                                            > practice your draw, anchor, and release.
                                                            >
                                                            > >Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my instructor is trying to tell
                                                            me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should have no problems hitting
                                                            30 and 40 yard targets. I have been fussing because I wanted a heavier bow
                                                            and am frustrated trying to figure out the "arc" thing in order to hit the
                                                            target accurately.
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            > If you are really only drawing 26 pounds, then the politest way I can
                                                            > put this is to say that your instructor is not being very realistic.
                                                            > Reaching the target is not the same thing as hitting it, and I have
                                                            > seen a lot of arrows from weak bows simply bounce off the hay bales at
                                                            > 30 and 40 yards even when they did hit them. See my comments below your
                                                            > bottom paragraph.
                                                            >
                                                            > >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring out
                                                            how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release I
                                                            get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            > Aiming high above the target is tough, because you seldom have anything
                                                            > handy up in the sky to use as an aiming point, and it's easy to lose
                                                            > track of where the target is. What many archers do in this situation is
                                                            > to use an anchor point on their chest or stomach -- a technique commonly
                                                            > used in clout shooting. This allows them to sight over the tip of a
                                                            > steeply-angled arrow without having to look way up into the sky.
                                                            > Exactly how high to aim is something you will have to work out by trial
                                                            > and error, since every bow and person is different.
                                                            >
                                                            > If you are truly getting *random* arrow speeds, then I suspect that your
                                                            > draw, anchor, and release are not as consistent as you think. A high
                                                            > degree of consistency in these actions is the very foundation of good
                                                            > archery, and generally takes years of practice to achieve. Even very
                                                            > small variations can cause quite an effect on the flight of an arrow.
                                                            >
                                                            > The only other random factors affecting arrow speed would be the wind,
                                                            > and maybe disintegrating equipment (unlikely). A non-random factor
                                                            > could be mismatched arrows, especially with differences in spine and/or
                                                            > fletching. I say non-random because, if all other factors are uniform,
                                                            > the same arrow should fly approximately the same every time you shoot
                                                            > it. Unless the wind is gusting, though, the greatest source of
                                                            > randomness is the archer.
                                                            >
                                                            > >Also, I don't believe that I would have no advantage with a higher
                                                            poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight more accurate/consistent
                                                            than one that has to arc to hit a target?
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            > You are entirely correct in thinking that higher arrow velocity should
                                                            > increase your accuracy, and for two main reasons.
                                                            >
                                                            > The first is that a faster arrow can reach a given target with a flatter
                                                            > trajectory than can a slower arrow ( I assume that is what you mean by
                                                            > "an arrow that flies straight"). The advantage here is that, as you
                                                            > have noted, it makes aiming much easier -- no aiming up in the sky to
                                                            > reach targets that are only 40 yards away.
                                                            >
                                                            > The second is that a faster arrow will be less affected by wind. There
                                                            > are three aspects of this. 1) Since the faster arrow will be in the air
                                                            > for a shorter time before reaching the target, there is less time for
                                                            > the prevailing wind to act upon it. 2) Since it will be in the air for
                                                            > a shorter time, there is less chance that it will be affected by a
                                                            > *change* in the wind that occurs while it is in flight. We can learn to
                                                            > compensate for steady wind, but gusts and lulls are unpredictable. 3)
                                                            > An arrow shot in a high arc is often exposed to wind of greater force
                                                            > and different direction that the wind closer to the ground.
                                                            >
                                                            > Except for the wind factor, I can't think of anything that would make a
                                                            > faster arrow inherently more consistent than a slower one.
                                                            > Inconsistency is almost always due to the archer.
                                                            >
                                                            > When trying to get your arrows to fly faster, it is important to
                                                            > remember that a heavier draw weight is only one contributing factor.
                                                            > Another is the efficiency of the bow -- how fast it throws the arrow
                                                            > per pound of draw weight. Some bow designs are more efficient than
                                                            > others, and within any particular design some individual bows are more
                                                            > efficient than others because of the materials and craftsmanship
                                                            > involved. If you can, try some different types of bow. Some of the
                                                            > recurved designs are not only more efficient than a longbow, but are
                                                            > actually much easier to draw at the same poundage.
                                                            >
                                                            > Another thing you can do is to use an anchor point which gives you a
                                                            > longer draw length, i.e. to your cheek or your ear instead of your chin.
                                                            > Traditional Japanese archers draw all the way to the shoulder. A
                                                            > longer draw generally increases the effective draw weight of a bow.
                                                            >
                                                            > Arrow weight also has an effect on arrow velocity, but it can be pro or
                                                            > con according to distance and shooting conditions. The most important
                                                            > thing, as far as weight, is that your arrows all be the same.
                                                            >
                                                            > All this being said, it is still very important to not use a bow that is
                                                            > too heavy for you *right now*. You can injure yourself, and you can
                                                            > develop very bad form and habits. Most of us wish we could shoot
                                                            > heavier bows, but we have to let reality be our guide. Your muscles
                                                            > will gain strength fairly rapidly if you draw your bow a lot, but it
                                                            > doesn't do to anticipate too much. The best rule of thumb that I have
                                                            > heard for choosing a good draw weight is one posted on this list by
                                                            > Carolus Eulenhorst, so I will quote him here: "As to poundage, the best
                                                            > thing is to go to practice and try pulling different bows. Find a weight
                                                            > you can just hold at full draw for ten seconds. if you can hold longer
                                                            > the you will outgrow the bow quickly and if you can't hold that long the
                                                            > bow is too heavy for you (overbowed)."
                                                            >
                                                            > If you are serious about archery, please believe me that in the early
                                                            > stages it is actually far more important for you to work on your draw,
                                                            > anchor, and release than it is to hit 40-yard targets -- or any targets,
                                                            > for that matter. And you should do it with a bow that you can draw
                                                            > easily. I know that doesn't sound very exciting, but it will really pay
                                                            > off.
                                                            >
                                                            > >It's like a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > Sorry, I don't understand this comment.
                                                            >
                                                            > John
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
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