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Re: [SCA-Archery] Digest Number 1621

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  • Naima
    re combat archery: are you allowed to put a colored powder on the tip of your arrow to SHOW that the fighter has been hit in a kill spot? I m going to be
    Message 1 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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      re combat archery: are you allowed to put a colored
      powder on the tip of your arrow to SHOW that the
      fighter has been hit in a kill spot?

      I'm going to be looking into combat archery adn I as
      well have heard the stories of fighters shrugging off
      kill shots from archers, some have been because "I
      didn't know you had hit me" or "it was not a legit
      kill" or something

      so would the colored powder be legal?

      Naima

      =====
      Sayyida Naima bint Rashid al-Andalusiyya, CGP
      Shire of Bronzehelm
      Kingdom of Artemisia

      Don't let other people's littleness bring out the littleness in you!




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    • Carolus Eulenhorst
      NO. A powder on the tip of the arrow can be propelled at high velocity into a person eye and easily cause permanent injury (imagine a tattoo in your lens).
      Message 2 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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        NO. A powder on the tip of the arrow can be propelled at high velocity
        into a person eye and easily cause permanent injury (imagine a tattoo in
        your lens).
        Carolus

        On Sat, 8 May 2004 12:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Naima <ladywolf89@...>
        writes:
        > re combat archery: are you allowed to put a colored
        > powder on the tip of your arrow to SHOW that the
        > fighter has been hit in a kill spot?
        >
        > I'm going to be looking into combat archery adn I as
        > well have heard the stories of fighters shrugging off
        > kill shots from archers, some have been because "I
        > didn't know you had hit me" or "it was not a legit
        > kill" or something
        >
        > so would the colored powder be legal?
        >
        > Naima

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      • kilmye@aol.com
        I think the shot has to hit hard enough in a vulnerable enough area to kill. Simply tagging someone with an arrow doesn t equal a kill in all cases. Sometimes
        Message 3 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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          I think the shot has to hit hard enough in a vulnerable enough area to kill.
          Simply tagging someone with an arrow doesn't equal a kill in all cases.
          Sometimes I think people get so wound up that they don't acknowledge being killed
          when they should, not out of unscrupulousness, just too much adrenaline at the
          moment. Sometimes they may not acknowledge a kill out of pride or some other
          issue, but it's not always intentional. It can be a hard call. Obviously if you
          get someone right in an unarmored spot or through the visor etc, it should be
          a kill, but what if you hit them in the back...was the shot hard enough to
          pierce their armor, or not? Not everybody struck with an arrow in real period
          combat died.

          I've never done combat archery, but I've watched rapier and heavy fighting in
          competitions and practice, so I'm thinking some of the same issues would
          apply, wouldn't they? Correct me if I'm wrong.

          Kiley


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
          Well I must disagre a bit. Combate archers are forced to use 35# bows because of SCA rules. Not a bad rule mind you but that is a fairly weak bow to use on
          Message 4 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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            Well I must disagre a bit. Combate archers are forced to use 35# bows because of SCA rules. Not a bad rule mind you but that is a fairly weak bow to use on some of the aromor that the heavys use. If you got hit in one of our kill spots with a period bow they would be dead. we would be talking about 100 to 150 pound bows. Period bows could go through PLATE at 200 yards. So a kill is a kill with a bow, I don't think we should get into if it was hard enough. Its not hard enough to protect the heavys.

            kilmye@... wrote:I think the shot has to hit hard enough in a vulnerable enough area to kill.
            Simply tagging someone with an arrow doesn't equal a kill in all cases.
            Sometimes I think people get so wound up that they don't acknowledge being killed
            when they should, not out of unscrupulousness, just too much adrenaline at the
            moment. Sometimes they may not acknowledge a kill out of pride or some other
            issue, but it's not always intentional. It can be a hard call. Obviously if you
            get someone right in an unarmored spot or through the visor etc, it should be
            a kill, but what if you hit them in the back...was the shot hard enough to
            pierce their armor, or not? Not everybody struck with an arrow in real period
            combat died.

            I've never done combat archery, but I've watched rapier and heavy fighting in
            competitions and practice, so I'm thinking some of the same issues would
            apply, wouldn't they? Correct me if I'm wrong.

            Kiley


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            Yours in Service;

            Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
            Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
            Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands

            When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
            -- Maurice Thompson













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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • kilmye@aol.com
            That makes a lot of sense, but still wouldn t an arrow from a great distance loose too much steam to count, or one that was a glancing blow? I m just a newbie
            Message 5 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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              That makes a lot of sense, but still wouldn't an arrow from a great distance
              loose too much steam to count, or one that was a glancing blow? I'm just a
              newbie trying to work it out in my head, and appreciate your talking me through
              this.

              Kiley


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
              I would not want to heavy to go down from a glancing blow. Remember peroid archers were still VERY deadly at 200 yards. Just ask the french about it :-)
              Message 6 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                I would not want to heavy to go down from a glancing blow.

                Remember peroid archers were still VERY deadly at 200 yards. Just ask the french about it :-)

                kilmye@... wrote:
                That makes a lot of sense, but still wouldn't an arrow from a great distance
                loose too much steam to count, or one that was a glancing blow? I'm just a
                newbie trying to work it out in my head, and appreciate your talking me through
                this.

                Kiley


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                Yours in Service;

                Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
                Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
                Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands

                When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
                -- Maurice Thompson













                ---------------------------------
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Carolus Eulenhorst
                Exactly, that s why every shot isn t good. It s left up to the target to decide. Unfortunately, some people just never think any arrow is hard enough, even
                Message 7 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                  Exactly, that's why every shot isn't good. It's left up to the target to
                  decide. Unfortunately, some people just never think any arrow is hard
                  enough, even when sticking in their eyeslot. Just like some fighter's
                  think the blow that just caused them to start bleeding wasn't hard
                  enough. Seen both but not often, thankfully.
                  Carolus

                  On Sat, 8 May 2004 18:31:28 EDT kilmye@... writes:
                  > I think the shot has to hit hard enough in a vulnerable enough area
                  > to kill.
                  > Simply tagging someone with an arrow doesn't equal a kill in all
                  > cases.
                  > Sometimes I think people get so wound up that they don't acknowledge
                  > being killed
                  > when they should, not out of unscrupulousness, just too much
                  > adrenaline at the
                  > moment. Sometimes they may not acknowledge a kill out of pride or
                  > some other
                  > issue, but it's not always intentional. It can be a hard call.
                  > Obviously if you
                  > get someone right in an unarmored spot or through the visor etc, it
                  > should be
                  > a kill, but what if you hit them in the back...was the shot hard
                  > enough to
                  > pierce their armor, or not? Not everybody struck with an arrow in
                  > real period
                  > combat died.
                  >
                  > I've never done combat archery, but I've watched rapier and heavy
                  > fighting in
                  > competitions and practice, so I'm thinking some of the same issues
                  > would
                  > apply, wouldn't they? Correct me if I'm wrong.
                  >
                  > Kiley

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                • John edgerton
                  No it would not be legal. It also can get into the eyes when the blunt hits a bar grill. For more information on combat archery you might try joining the SCA
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                    No it would not be legal. It also can get into the eyes when the blunt
                    hits a bar grill. For more information on combat archery you might try
                    joining the SCA missile combat list, also on Yahoo.

                    Jon
                    On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 12:14 PM, Naima wrote:

                    > re combat archery: are you allowed to put a colored
                    > powder on the tip of your arrow to SHOW that the
                    > fighter has been hit in a kill spot?
                    >
                    > I'm going to be looking into combat archery adn I as
                    > well have heard the stories of fighters shrugging off
                    > kill shots from archers, some have been because "I
                    > didn't know you had hit me" or "it was not a legit
                    > kill" or something
                    >
                    > so would the colored powder be legal?
                    >
                    > Naima
                    >
                    > =====
                    > Sayyida Naima bint Rashid al-Andalusiyya, CGP
                    > Shire of Bronzehelm
                    > Kingdom of Artemisia
                    >
                    > Don't let other people's littleness bring out the littleness in you!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________
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                  • John edgerton
                    On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 03:54 PM, Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill ... The rules actually call for thirty pounds for shafted, wood and fiberglass, arrows and
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                      On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 03:54 PM, Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
                      wrote:

                      > Well I must disagre a bit. Combate archers are forced to use 35# bows
                      > because of SCA rules.

                      The rules actually call for thirty pounds for shafted, wood and
                      fiberglass, arrows and allow fifty pounds for tubular arrows such as
                      golftubes and siloflex.

                      > Not a bad rule mind you but that is a fairly weak bow to use on some
                      > of the aromor that the heavys use. If you got hit in one of our kill
                      > spots with a period bow they would be dead. we would be talking about
                      > 100 to 150 pound bows. Period bows could go through PLATE at 200
                      > yards.

                      I have been trying to find documentation of arrows penetrating plate.
                      Could you give me your source for information on penetration at 200
                      yards? This is the first time I have heard of it.

                      Also, a better place for this discussion would be on the SCA missile
                      combat list.

                      Jon

                      > So a kill is a kill with a bow, I don't think we should get into if
                      > it was hard enough. Its not hard enough to protect the heavys.
                    • Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
                      Opps sorry about that. This is a great site on the history of the longbow. I will admit I read between the lines a bit. According to the artcile the bows had
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                        Opps sorry about that.

                        This is a great site on the history of the longbow. I will admit I read between the lines a bit. According to the artcile the bows had range of up too 200 yards. In my mind if the bow has the range it could get throught the plate.

                        http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow.html

                        John edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:

                        On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 03:54 PM, Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
                        wrote:

                        > Well I must disagre a bit. Combate archers are forced to use 35# bows
                        > because of SCA rules.

                        The rules actually call for thirty pounds for shafted, wood and
                        fiberglass, arrows and allow fifty pounds for tubular arrows such as
                        golftubes and siloflex.

                        > Not a bad rule mind you but that is a fairly weak bow to use on some
                        > of the aromor that the heavys use. If you got hit in one of our kill
                        > spots with a period bow they would be dead. we would be talking about
                        > 100 to 150 pound bows. Period bows could go through PLATE at 200
                        > yards.

                        I have been trying to find documentation of arrows penetrating plate.
                        Could you give me your source for information on penetration at 200
                        yards? This is the first time I have heard of it.

                        Also, a better place for this discussion would be on the SCA missile
                        combat list.

                        Jon

                        > So a kill is a kill with a bow, I don't think we should get into if
                        > it was hard enough. Its not hard enough to protect the heavys.



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                        Yours in Service;

                        Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
                        Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
                        Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands

                        When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
                        -- Maurice Thompson













                        ---------------------------------
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                        You need to read the rules for your kingdom. Not acknowledging a kill out of pride is unscrupulous for anyone who would want to be called knight. But that is
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                          You need to read the rules for your kingdom. Not acknowledging a kill out of
                          pride is unscrupulous for anyone who would want to be called knight. But
                          that is an entirely different subject.

                          James Cunningham

                          > I think the shot has to hit hard enough in a vulnerable enough area to
                          kill.
                          > Simply tagging someone with an arrow doesn't equal a kill in all cases.
                          > Sometimes I think people get so wound up that they don't acknowledge being
                          killed
                          > when they should, not out of unscrupulousness, just too much adrenaline at
                          the
                          > moment. Sometimes they may not acknowledge a kill out of pride or some
                          other
                          > issue, but it's not always intentional. It can be a hard call. Obviously
                          if you
                          > get someone right in an unarmored spot or through the visor etc, it should
                          be
                          > a kill, but what if you hit them in the back...was the shot hard enough to
                          > pierce their armor, or not? Not everybody struck with an arrow in real
                          period
                          > combat died.
                          >
                          > I've never done combat archery, but I've watched rapier and heavy fighting
                          in
                          > competitions and practice, so I'm thinking some of the same issues would
                          > apply, wouldn't they? Correct me if I'm wrong.
                          >
                          > Kiley
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Robert Lauderdale
                          ... And having been on both ends of a golf tube arrow @50 lbs, I can say from experience they are not easily ignored. People also underestimate their
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                            >
                            >
                            >The rules actually call for thirty pounds for shafted, wood and
                            >fiberglass, arrows and allow fifty pounds for tubular arrows such as
                            >golftubes and siloflex.

                            And having been on both ends of a golf tube arrow @50 lbs, I can say from
                            experience they are not easily ignored. People also underestimate their
                            accuracy-- I have hit a Duke in the faceplate at close to 50 yards and
                            another archer, hiding behind a straw bale wall, in the gluteamus maximus
                            at about 65 yards.

                            What more do you need for SCA combat?

                            Chidiock
                          • John edgerton
                            I am familiar with that article. It is a good quick overview of the English longbow. However, it mentions an effective range of 200 yards. But does not
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                              I am familiar with that article. It is a good quick overview of the
                              English longbow. However, it mentions an effective range of 200
                              yards. But does not say that the arrows would penetrate plate armor at
                              that range. I believe that by effective they are referring to maximum
                              range with a heavy war arrow. But, that is just my opinion. :-)

                              Jon

                              On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 08:03 PM, Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
                              wrote:

                              > Opps sorry about that.
                              >
                              > This is a great site on the history of the longbow. I will admit I
                              > read between the lines a bit. According to the artcile the bows had
                              > range of up too 200 yards. In my mind if the bow has the range it
                              > could get throught the plate.
                              >
                              > http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow.html
                              >
                              > John edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 03:54 PM, Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >> Well I must disagre a bit. Combate archers are forced to use 35# bows
                              >> because of SCA rules.
                              >
                              > The rules actually call for thirty pounds for shafted, wood and
                              > fiberglass, arrows and allow fifty pounds for tubular arrows such as
                              > golftubes and siloflex.
                              >
                              >> Not a bad rule mind you but that is a fairly weak bow to use on some
                              >> of the aromor that the heavys use. If you got hit in one of our kill
                              >> spots with a period bow they would be dead. we would be talking about
                              >> 100 to 150 pound bows. Period bows could go through PLATE at 200
                              >> yards.
                              >
                              > I have been trying to find documentation of arrows penetrating plate.
                              > Could you give me your source for information on penetration at 200
                              > yards? This is the first time I have heard of it.
                              >
                              > Also, a better place for this discussion would be on the SCA missile
                              > combat list.
                              >
                              > Jon
                              >
                              >> So a kill is a kill with a bow, I don't think we should get into if
                              >> it was hard enough. Its not hard enough to protect the heavys.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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                              > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yours in Service;
                              >
                              > Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
                              > Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
                              > Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands
                              >
                              > When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another.
                              > It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you
                              > gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the
                              > bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit
                              > -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
                              > -- Maurice Thompson
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
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                              >
                              >
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                              >
                            • Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
                              Can t argue with that. I guess it depends on what they ment by effective, Effective against flesh? Chain? Plate? Leather? Who know. I would kill just to
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                                Can't argue with that. I guess it depends on what they ment by effective, Effective against flesh? Chain? Plate? Leather? Who know. I would kill just to be able to hit something at 200 yards much less kill it.

                                John edgerton <sirjon1@...> wrote:I am familiar with that article. It is a good quick overview of the
                                English longbow. However, it mentions an effective range of 200
                                yards. But does not say that the arrows would penetrate plate armor at
                                that range. I believe that by effective they are referring to maximum
                                range with a heavy war arrow. But, that is just my opinion. :-)

                                Jon

                                On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 08:03 PM, Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
                                wrote:

                                > Opps sorry about that.
                                >
                                > This is a great site on the history of the longbow. I will admit I
                                > read between the lines a bit. According to the artcile the bows had
                                > range of up too 200 yards. In my mind if the bow has the range it
                                > could get throught the plate.
                                >
                                > http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow.html
                                >
                                > John edgerton wrote:
                                >
                                > On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 03:54 PM, Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                >> Well I must disagre a bit. Combate archers are forced to use 35# bows
                                >> because of SCA rules.
                                >
                                > The rules actually call for thirty pounds for shafted, wood and
                                > fiberglass, arrows and allow fifty pounds for tubular arrows such as
                                > golftubes and siloflex.
                                >
                                >> Not a bad rule mind you but that is a fairly weak bow to use on some
                                >> of the aromor that the heavys use. If you got hit in one of our kill
                                >> spots with a period bow they would be dead. we would be talking about
                                >> 100 to 150 pound bows. Period bows could go through PLATE at 200
                                >> yards.
                                >
                                > I have been trying to find documentation of arrows penetrating plate.
                                > Could you give me your source for information on penetration at 200
                                > yards? This is the first time I have heard of it.
                                >
                                > Also, a better place for this discussion would be on the SCA missile
                                > combat list.
                                >
                                > Jon
                                >
                                >> So a kill is a kill with a bow, I don't think we should get into if
                                >> it was hard enough. Its not hard enough to protect the heavys.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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                                > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                                >
                                > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yours in Service;
                                >
                                > Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
                                > Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
                                > Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands
                                >
                                > When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another.
                                > It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you
                                > gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the
                                > bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit
                                > -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
                                > -- Maurice Thompson
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                Yours in Service;

                                Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
                                Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
                                Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands

                                When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
                                -- Maurice Thompson













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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Kinjal of Moravia
                                ... the ... armor at ... maximum ... again, I will weary the point -- it is not whether arrows can pentrate plate, or mail, or silk or anything selected that
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, John edgerton <sirjon1@p...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > I am familiar with that article. It is a good quick overview of
                                  the
                                  > English longbow. However, it mentions an effective range of 200
                                  > yards. But does not say that the arrows would penetrate plate
                                  armor at
                                  > that range. I believe that by effective they are referring to
                                  maximum
                                  > range with a heavy war arrow. But, that is just my opinion. :-)
                                  >
                                  > Jon
                                  > ...........................................................

                                  again, I will weary the point -- it is not whether arrows can
                                  pentrate plate, or mail, or silk or anything selected that is
                                  important -- it is whether, historically arrows where efective in
                                  medieval battles. Yes! Fully armored knights were killed by arrows
                                  (in a chance hit in the armpit perhaps -- but fact. Most of the
                                  efectiveness casme from the fact that basic troups were very poorly
                                  armored. The 'mythos' of SCA that everyone on the field is fully
                                  protected by ANY agreed armor, code, speed, health or anything else
                                  is a FICTION of the GAME! If you wish to play, abide. If you
                                  don't -- watch reality TV. A person taking a hit has to do with
                                  integrity -- nothing else. No research into arrow points, distance,
                                  armor or bow type is going to change that.

                                  How about having every one wishing to do SCA combat stand in the
                                  skivies and swere -- "I will agree to take hits as defined by the
                                  rules of the game!" This says that any arrow I shoot defeats any
                                  armor you wear. Likewise, you cry from 15 steps of, 'I see you
                                  archer kills me!' What is the friging problem? This is not a
                                  history accuracy site -- it is 'how to function within the SCA game
                                  site"

                                  boy, if you think this is bad, try getting a decision on acceptable
                                  Bardic documentation -- before the competition, that is! Try, "Since
                                  only one person provide the required documentation we will suspend
                                  the rules in deference to our more experienced performers who
                                  figured these rules are not necessary."

                                  kinjal (who truly loves all this banter)
                                  >
                                • kilmye@aol.com
                                  If I ever go into a melee or any other fight, I plan to die very easily (if you can catch me). I don t want to necessitate anybody hitting me any harder than
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 9, 2004
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                                    If I ever go into a melee or any other fight, I plan to die very easily (if
                                    you can catch me). I don't want to necessitate anybody hitting me any harder
                                    than absolutely necessary, not to mention I get spectacular bruises for even
                                    little hits.

                                    Kiley


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • David Thompson-Hall
                                    ... Wow, I m amazed to hear this... are you talking about real golf tubes, those flimsy things that were introduced many years back? Or the new siloflex,
                                    Message 17 of 17 , May 9, 2004
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                                      At 10:33 PM -0500 5/8/04, Robert Lauderdale wrote:
                                      >And having been on both ends of a golf tube arrow @50 lbs, I can say from
                                      >experience they are not easily ignored. People also underestimate their
                                      >accuracy-- I have hit a Duke in the faceplate at close to 50 yards and
                                      >another archer, hiding behind a straw bale wall, in the gluteamus maximus
                                      >at about 65 yards.

                                      Wow, I'm amazed to hear this... are you talking about real golf
                                      tubes, those flimsy things that were introduced many years back? Or
                                      the new siloflex, which are much more rigid and thus rather easier to
                                      shoot longer distances?

                                      if they were true golf tubes, how did you get them to fly that far?

                                      Jack



                                      --
                                      >>>>>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
                                      THL John Bartholomew of Flanders, AoA, CDB, CGC, OSN, Watchman jbf@...
                                      Barony of Jararvellir, Northshield, Midrealm www.pobox.com/~jbf
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