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Re: [SCA-Archery] Quiver Shivers

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  • jay
    Greetings all, I ve used the belt method for a few years now (excepting my current gaffiation ;) and I ve been relatively successful with it. A wider (2+
    Message 1 of 17 , May 7 9:12 AM
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      Greetings all,

      I've used the "belt method" for a few years now (excepting my current
      gaffiation ;) and I've been
      relatively successful with it. A wider (2+ inches) belt seems to work
      better than the narrower ones.

      Regarding spacers, wasn't there something in the Mary Rose findings that
      seemed to be a quiver spacer? That is, a leather disk with a dozen or so
      holes punched in it? It would work well enough for
      bodkin-type heads, but not for broadheads.

      Calum

      At 5/7/04 07:12 AM, you wrote:
      >Period archers only carried a few arrows, often tucked in a belt. No
      >quiver to worry about when hunting.
      >Carolus
    • Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
      Ahhhhh the archer bag that I have read about. At times I wonder if quivers are period at all for a 1340 Scot. Matters not I love my hip quiver but I would
      Message 2 of 17 , May 7 11:17 AM
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        Ahhhhh the archer bag that I have read about. At times I wonder if quivers are period at all for a 1340 Scot. Matters not I love my hip quiver but I would like to make a bag like the one described.

        "LD.BLACKMOON" <LD.BLACKMOON@...> wrote:GREETINGS

        MY EARLIEST DOCUMENTATION SHOWS NO QUIVER AT ALL. JUST A CLOTH " SHEAF "
        TUCKED UNDER THE ARCHERS BELT BEHIND HIS BACK. THIS WAS DURING THE AGINCOURT
        ERA.
        FOR HUNTING , I HAVE FOUND THAT SHEEPSKIN IN THE BOTTOM AND AROUND THE TOP
        OF A LEATHER QUIVER DOES WONDERS FOR KEEPING THE ARROWS QUIET,
        BUT JUST CARRYING A FEW IN THE BELT WORKS BEST OF ALL .

        BE SAFE, BE HAPPY, HAVE FUN
        ARTHUR BLACKMOON



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        Yours in Service;

        Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
        Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
        Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands

        When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
        -- Maurice Thompson













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      • Bruce R. Gordon
        Greetings I ve seen equestrian archery demos in which that gripping of arrows in one s bowhand is used - I was fascinated by the idea, but don t know if I have
        Message 3 of 17 , May 7 11:34 AM
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          Greetings
          I've seen equestrian archery demos in which that gripping of
          arrows in one's bowhand is used - I was fascinated by the idea, but
          don't know if I have the nerve to try it unmounted - I suspect I'd end
          up by dropping everything, at least initially.
          In regards the original topic of this thread, to quiver or not to
          quiver (and if you do, is it belt or back) is one of those perennial
          controversies that regularly gets aired here, and on other lists. It
          seems clear that some quivers or quiver-like containers were used in
          period at various times and places - you see illustrations of them in
          many sources: Bayeux Tapestry for the 11th-12th cent. and the Catherine
          of Cleves book of hours for the 15th cent. come to mind immediately.
          And it also seems clear that great many archers had only a handful of
          arrows (or only used a few arrows at a time) and simply stuck 'em in
          their belts or sashes. I suspect, but cannot as yet prove, that quivers
          were more common among later-period professional military archers who
          were issued a sheaf at a time (24 arrows), and that non-military types
          (hunter-poachers, foresters, etc. probably took only 2 to 5 arrows with
          them went they went out to hunt or practice, and did without special
          bags or sacks, mostly. Probably a matter of cost, availability, and
          personal taste as much as anything. And I'll betcha there were plenty
          of counter-examples as well - military archers who scooped up their
          sheaf, walked up to the line, and stuck 'em in the ground next to them
          for easy reach (anyone have documentation on metal ground-quivers?) and
          hunters with artfully tooled fancy quivers like in Catherine of Cleves.

          Nigel

          > Ohh that just hurts. I have seen Sir Rand the tracker keep 3 arrows
          in his bow hand during the speed round and just don't know how he does
          it! Maybe my hands are just too small.
          >
          > I have read about spacers that werer used by archers in the 100 years
          war. They were used to keep the flechings from getting messed up but
          it should also keep the arrows quit.
          >
          > Kinjal of Moravia <gusarimagic@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Any decent quivers out there that take care of this while
          > remaining in
          > > period? My persona is 16th century Scottish, so what would he
          > have used?
          > >
          > > Just curious.
          > >
          > > Alisdar Mac Giolle Chroiste
          >
          > ...................................................
          >
          > my shoddy research in all provinces suggest that they carried three
          > arrows in bow hand and perhaps no quiver at all! Interestingly, if
          > you draw with arrows in hand you get a different 'sight picture',
          > and can use the arrows as range points -- just a thought. My
          > earliest suggestion of a quiver was a way for Charlamagne to
          > guarantee that each soldier had a proper quota of arrows, not a
          > shooting requirement.
          >
          > kinjal
          >
          >
          >
          > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yours in Service;
          >
          > Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
          > Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
          > Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands
          >
          > When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another.
          It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain
          nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it
          is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the
          bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
          > -- Maurice Thompson
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
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        • hawkwoode@att.net
          I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises, along with a bow case. Visit the website at www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture of
          Message 4 of 17 , May 7 11:36 AM
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            I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises, along with a bow case. Visit the website at www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture of the bag. Click on the arms and armor listing to see the line of archery equipment, which includes self-nock arrows and bodkin points of various types.

            Elizabeth Hawkwood




            --
            Nothing's Forgotten - Nothing is
            Ever Forgotten


            > Ohh that just hurts. I have seen Sir Rand the tracker keep 3 arrows in his bow
            > hand during the speed round and just don't know how he does it! Maybe my hands
            > are just too small.
            >
            > I have read about spacers that werer used by archers in the 100 years war. They
            > were used to keep the flechings from getting messed up but it should also keep
            > the arrows quit.
            >
            > Kinjal of Moravia <gusarimagic@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Any decent quivers out there that take care of this while
            > remaining in
            > > period? My persona is 16th century Scottish, so what would he
            > have used?
            > >
            > > Just curious.
            > >
            > > Alisdar Mac Giolle Chroiste
            >
            > ...................................................
            >
            > my shoddy research in all provinces suggest that they carried three
            > arrows in bow hand and perhaps no quiver at all! Interestingly, if
            > you draw with arrows in hand you get a different 'sight picture',
            > and can use the arrows as range points -- just a thought. My
            > earliest suggestion of a quiver was a way for Charlamagne to
            > guarantee that each soldier had a proper quota of arrows, not a
            > shooting requirement.
            >
            > kinjal
            >
            >
            >
            > ---8<---------------------------------------------
            > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
            > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
            >
            > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yours in Service;
            >
            > Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
            > Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
            > Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands
            >
            > When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a
            > miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it.
            > Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's
            > miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath
            > escape the shot was so well sent..
            > -- Maurice Thompson
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
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          • Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
            WOW! Now that is period. I will have to get one. Nice to see one done so well and for a very fair price. hawkwoode@att.net wrote:I have an arrow bag that I
            Message 5 of 17 , May 7 11:48 AM
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              WOW! Now that is period. I will have to get one. Nice to see one done so well and for a very fair price.

              hawkwoode@... wrote:I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises, along with a bow case. Visit the website at www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture of the bag. Click on the arms and armor listing to see the line of archery equipment, which includes self-nock arrows and bodkin points of various types.

              Elizabeth Hawkwood




              --
              Nothing's Forgotten - Nothing is
              Ever Forgotten


              > Ohh that just hurts. I have seen Sir Rand the tracker keep 3 arrows in his bow
              > hand during the speed round and just don't know how he does it! Maybe my hands
              > are just too small.
              >
              > I have read about spacers that werer used by archers in the 100 years war. They
              > were used to keep the flechings from getting messed up but it should also keep
              > the arrows quit.
              >
              > Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
              > >
              > > Any decent quivers out there that take care of this while
              > remaining in
              > > period? My persona is 16th century Scottish, so what would he
              > have used?
              > >
              > > Just curious.
              > >
              > > Alisdar Mac Giolle Chroiste
              >
              > ...................................................
              >
              > my shoddy research in all provinces suggest that they carried three
              > arrows in bow hand and perhaps no quiver at all! Interestingly, if
              > you draw with arrows in hand you get a different 'sight picture',
              > and can use the arrows as range points -- just a thought. My
              > earliest suggestion of a quiver was a way for Charlamagne to
              > guarantee that each soldier had a proper quota of arrows, not a
              > shooting requirement.
              >
              > kinjal
              >
              >
              >
              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
              > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
              > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
              >
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yours in Service;
              >
              > Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
              > Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
              > Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands
              >
              > When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a
              > miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it.
              > Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's
              > miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath
              > escape the shot was so well sent..
              > -- Maurice Thompson
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
              > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
              > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
              >
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              ---8<---------------------------------------------
              Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
              Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/

              [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]

              Yahoo! Groups Links







              Yours in Service;

              Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
              Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
              Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands

              When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
              -- Maurice Thompson













              ---------------------------------
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nathaniel S. Prentice
              Hiya. Thanks for the response to my email. I put a bunch of snippets together. The way to read this is the response I am referring to can be found
              Message 6 of 17 , May 8 12:55 PM
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                Hiya. Thanks for the response to my email. I put a bunch of snippets
                together. The way to read this is the response I am referring to can be
                found underneath my response.

                ------------------------------

                Now this is a truly interesting idea. I wonder if this would be allowed in
                a tournament...

                my shoddy research in all provinces suggest that they carried three
                arrows in bow hand and perhaps no quiver at all! Interestingly, if
                you draw with arrows in hand you get a different 'sight picture',
                and can use the arrows as range points -- just a thought. My
                earliest suggestion of a quiver was a way for Charlamagne to
                guarantee that each soldier had a proper quota of arrows, not a
                shooting requirement.

                kinjal

                Actually, my character is late 1500's Scot. I would be afraid to hunt with
                a purely cloth quiver--what if I fell and the arrows went into my gut? I
                can see how using a sheepskin liner would work for the arrows on the
                outside, but what about the jostling between the ones on the inside?
                Ahhhhh the archer bag that I have read about. At times I wonder if quivers
                are period at all for a 1340 Scot. Matters not I love my hip quiver but I
                would like to make a bag like the one described.

                "LD.BLACKMOON" <LD.BLACKMOON@...> wrote:GREETINGS

                MY EARLIEST DOCUMENTATION SHOWS NO QUIVER AT ALL. JUST A CLOTH " SHEAF "
                TUCKED UNDER THE ARCHERS BELT BEHIND HIS BACK. THIS WAS DURING THE AGINCOURT
                ERA.
                FOR HUNTING , I HAVE FOUND THAT SHEEPSKIN IN THE BOTTOM AND AROUND THE TOP
                OF A LEATHER QUIVER DOES WONDERS FOR KEEPING THE ARROWS QUIET,
                BUT JUST CARRYING A FEW IN THE BELT WORKS BEST OF ALL .

                BE SAFE, BE HAPPY, HAVE FUN
                ARTHUR BLACKMOON


                I like the arrow bag that you found. It sounds like it fits the description
                of what some people on the Net have mentioned about the Mary Rose archers.
                Being a newbie who is just coming off of his training wheels (i.e. compound
                bow), what exactly is a "spacer"? I think I could probably make one of my
                own versions of that. Linen scares me, though, for reasons I already
                stated.

                Message: 5
                Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 18:36:33 +0000
                From: hawkwoode@...
                Subject: Re: Re: Quiver Shivers

                I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises, along with a
                bow case. Visit the website at www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture
                of the bag. Click on the arms and armor listing to see the line of archery
                equipment, which includes self-nock arrows and bodkin points of various
                types.

                Elizabeth Hawkwood

                :(

                With a quiver, noise is always something to overcome.
                ..................................................
                Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe - OP, Midrealm Forester
                "Take thou no scorn to wear the horn; It was a crest ere thou wast born"
                - As You Like It Act 4, Scene II

                Thanks for the input, guys. I was actually thinking that it would be OK to
                break a few rules--I'd be willing to bet the Scots didn't have many bows at
                all, or if they did, they were too prrrroud to use them, in any case.

                I like the idea of the linen quiver. I wonder if anyone out there might
                have a schematic...



                Alisdar Mac Giolle Chroiste

                Archer-in-training, Barony of Bhakail



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Carolus Eulenhorst
                Actually, the bags and spacers referred to on this list were storage bags used to ship arrows. The points were gathered in the narrow end of the bag and the
                Message 7 of 17 , May 9 10:30 AM
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                  Actually, the bags and spacers referred to on this list were storage bags
                  used to ship arrows. The points were gathered in the narrow end of the
                  bag and the nocks placed in the holes of the spacers to prevent crushing
                  the fletchings. When the wide end of the bag was opened, a leather disc
                  with 24 protruding nocks was all that was seen. Then entire sheaf of
                  arrows had to be removed and then the arrows could be removed from the
                  spacer. Contemporary account state that the arrows were issued to the
                  archers who then carried them loose to their position on the line and
                  stuck them in the ground before them.

                  All of which is fine for the military archer. However, our target
                  archery is much more akin to hunting, roving, or the noble target
                  shooting of period. As to practices of the period in this regard nothing
                  has been said. Frankly I have not looked into it either.
                  Carolus

                  On Fri, 07 May 2004 09:12:12 -0700 jay <ravnville@...> writes:
                  > Greetings all,
                  >
                  > I've used the "belt method" for a few years now (excepting my
                  > current
                  > gaffiation ;) and I've been
                  > relatively successful with it. A wider (2+ inches) belt seems to
                  > work
                  > better than the narrower ones.
                  >
                  > Regarding spacers, wasn't there something in the Mary Rose findings
                  > that
                  > seemed to be a quiver spacer? That is, a leather disk with a dozen
                  > or so
                  > holes punched in it? It would work well enough for
                  > bodkin-type heads, but not for broadheads.
                  >
                  > Calum
                  >
                  > At 5/7/04 07:12 AM, you wrote:
                  > >Period archers only carried a few arrows, often tucked in a belt.
                  > No
                  > >quiver to worry about when hunting.
                  > >Carolus
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                  > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                  > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                  >
                  > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this
                  > list]
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

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                • David Thompson-Hall
                  ... Definitely an awesome sight - does anyone know what they sell their bodkins for, when they re in stock? Also, I am very curious about the book they cited
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 9 7:24 PM
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                    At 6:36 PM +0000 5/7/04, hawkwoode@... wrote:
                    >I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises,
                    >along with a bow case. Visit the website at
                    >www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture of the bag. Click on
                    >the arms and armor listing to see the line of archery equipment,
                    >which includes self-nock arrows and bodkin points of various types.

                    Definitely an awesome sight - does anyone know what they sell their
                    bodkins for, when they're in stock?

                    Also, I am very curious about the book they cited on the web page as
                    their source for the arrow bag and other stuff - "The Medieval
                    Soldier" by Embleton & Howe. If anyone has read this book, can you
                    tell me more about it? What other reconstructions does it have?


                    Jack
                    always glad to find more sources for cool and period stuff


                    --
                    >>>>>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
                    THL John Bartholomew of Flanders, AoA, CDB, CGC, OSN, Watchman jbf@...
                    Barony of Jararvellir, Northshield, Midrealm www.pobox.com/~jbf
                  • Godwin fitzGilbert de Striguil
                    Not only were the arrows delivered in the sheaf bags, but 1/3 to 1/4 of of each sheaf were flight arrows, the rest being the larger and heavier shafts used in
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 10 5:54 AM
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                      Not only were the arrows delivered in the sheaf bags, but 1/3 to 1/4 of
                      of each sheaf were flight arrows, the rest being the larger and heavier
                      shafts used in 'closer' ranges.

                      The arrows "in use" were tucked into the belt, whilst the arrows of
                      "next use" were stuck in the ground.

                      As far as naming ash for arrow woods, Ascham lists it as a favorite
                      amongst others, in Toxophilus. Most of the arrows on the Mary Rose were
                      breasted poplar shafts.

                      Godwin
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