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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Quiver Shivers

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  • LD.BLACKMOON
    GREETINGS MY EARLIEST DOCUMENTATION SHOWS NO QUIVER AT ALL. JUST A CLOTH SHEAF TUCKED UNDER THE ARCHERS BELT BEHIND HIS BACK. THIS WAS DURING THE AGINCOURT
    Message 1 of 17 , May 7, 2004
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      GREETINGS

      MY EARLIEST DOCUMENTATION SHOWS NO QUIVER AT ALL. JUST A CLOTH " SHEAF "
      TUCKED UNDER THE ARCHERS BELT BEHIND HIS BACK. THIS WAS DURING THE AGINCOURT
      ERA.
      FOR HUNTING , I HAVE FOUND THAT SHEEPSKIN IN THE BOTTOM AND AROUND THE TOP
      OF A LEATHER QUIVER DOES WONDERS FOR KEEPING THE ARROWS QUIET,
      BUT JUST CARRYING A FEW IN THE BELT WORKS BEST OF ALL .

      BE SAFE, BE HAPPY, HAVE FUN
      ARTHUR BLACKMOON
    • jay
      Greetings all, I ve used the belt method for a few years now (excepting my current gaffiation ;) and I ve been relatively successful with it. A wider (2+
      Message 2 of 17 , May 7, 2004
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        Greetings all,

        I've used the "belt method" for a few years now (excepting my current
        gaffiation ;) and I've been
        relatively successful with it. A wider (2+ inches) belt seems to work
        better than the narrower ones.

        Regarding spacers, wasn't there something in the Mary Rose findings that
        seemed to be a quiver spacer? That is, a leather disk with a dozen or so
        holes punched in it? It would work well enough for
        bodkin-type heads, but not for broadheads.

        Calum

        At 5/7/04 07:12 AM, you wrote:
        >Period archers only carried a few arrows, often tucked in a belt. No
        >quiver to worry about when hunting.
        >Carolus
      • Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
        Ohh that just hurts. I have seen Sir Rand the tracker keep 3 arrows in his bow hand during the speed round and just don t know how he does it! Maybe my hands
        Message 3 of 17 , May 7, 2004
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          Ohh that just hurts. I have seen Sir Rand the tracker keep 3 arrows in his bow hand during the speed round and just don't know how he does it! Maybe my hands are just too small.

          I have read about spacers that werer used by archers in the 100 years war. They were used to keep the flechings from getting messed up but it should also keep the arrows quit.

          Kinjal of Moravia <gusarimagic@...> wrote:
          >
          > Any decent quivers out there that take care of this while
          remaining in
          > period? My persona is 16th century Scottish, so what would he
          have used?
          >
          > Just curious.
          >
          > Alisdar Mac Giolle Chroiste

          ...................................................

          my shoddy research in all provinces suggest that they carried three
          arrows in bow hand and perhaps no quiver at all! Interestingly, if
          you draw with arrows in hand you get a different 'sight picture',
          and can use the arrows as range points -- just a thought. My
          earliest suggestion of a quiver was a way for Charlamagne to
          guarantee that each soldier had a proper quota of arrows, not a
          shooting requirement.

          kinjal



          ---8<---------------------------------------------
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          Yours in Service;

          Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
          Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
          Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands

          When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
          -- Maurice Thompson













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        • Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
          Ahhhhh the archer bag that I have read about. At times I wonder if quivers are period at all for a 1340 Scot. Matters not I love my hip quiver but I would
          Message 4 of 17 , May 7, 2004
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            Ahhhhh the archer bag that I have read about. At times I wonder if quivers are period at all for a 1340 Scot. Matters not I love my hip quiver but I would like to make a bag like the one described.

            "LD.BLACKMOON" <LD.BLACKMOON@...> wrote:GREETINGS

            MY EARLIEST DOCUMENTATION SHOWS NO QUIVER AT ALL. JUST A CLOTH " SHEAF "
            TUCKED UNDER THE ARCHERS BELT BEHIND HIS BACK. THIS WAS DURING THE AGINCOURT
            ERA.
            FOR HUNTING , I HAVE FOUND THAT SHEEPSKIN IN THE BOTTOM AND AROUND THE TOP
            OF A LEATHER QUIVER DOES WONDERS FOR KEEPING THE ARROWS QUIET,
            BUT JUST CARRYING A FEW IN THE BELT WORKS BEST OF ALL .

            BE SAFE, BE HAPPY, HAVE FUN
            ARTHUR BLACKMOON



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            Yours in Service;

            Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
            Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
            Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands

            When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
            -- Maurice Thompson













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          • Bruce R. Gordon
            Greetings I ve seen equestrian archery demos in which that gripping of arrows in one s bowhand is used - I was fascinated by the idea, but don t know if I have
            Message 5 of 17 , May 7, 2004
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              Greetings
              I've seen equestrian archery demos in which that gripping of
              arrows in one's bowhand is used - I was fascinated by the idea, but
              don't know if I have the nerve to try it unmounted - I suspect I'd end
              up by dropping everything, at least initially.
              In regards the original topic of this thread, to quiver or not to
              quiver (and if you do, is it belt or back) is one of those perennial
              controversies that regularly gets aired here, and on other lists. It
              seems clear that some quivers or quiver-like containers were used in
              period at various times and places - you see illustrations of them in
              many sources: Bayeux Tapestry for the 11th-12th cent. and the Catherine
              of Cleves book of hours for the 15th cent. come to mind immediately.
              And it also seems clear that great many archers had only a handful of
              arrows (or only used a few arrows at a time) and simply stuck 'em in
              their belts or sashes. I suspect, but cannot as yet prove, that quivers
              were more common among later-period professional military archers who
              were issued a sheaf at a time (24 arrows), and that non-military types
              (hunter-poachers, foresters, etc. probably took only 2 to 5 arrows with
              them went they went out to hunt or practice, and did without special
              bags or sacks, mostly. Probably a matter of cost, availability, and
              personal taste as much as anything. And I'll betcha there were plenty
              of counter-examples as well - military archers who scooped up their
              sheaf, walked up to the line, and stuck 'em in the ground next to them
              for easy reach (anyone have documentation on metal ground-quivers?) and
              hunters with artfully tooled fancy quivers like in Catherine of Cleves.

              Nigel

              > Ohh that just hurts. I have seen Sir Rand the tracker keep 3 arrows
              in his bow hand during the speed round and just don't know how he does
              it! Maybe my hands are just too small.
              >
              > I have read about spacers that werer used by archers in the 100 years
              war. They were used to keep the flechings from getting messed up but
              it should also keep the arrows quit.
              >
              > Kinjal of Moravia <gusarimagic@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Any decent quivers out there that take care of this while
              > remaining in
              > > period? My persona is 16th century Scottish, so what would he
              > have used?
              > >
              > > Just curious.
              > >
              > > Alisdar Mac Giolle Chroiste
              >
              > ...................................................
              >
              > my shoddy research in all provinces suggest that they carried three
              > arrows in bow hand and perhaps no quiver at all! Interestingly, if
              > you draw with arrows in hand you get a different 'sight picture',
              > and can use the arrows as range points -- just a thought. My
              > earliest suggestion of a quiver was a way for Charlamagne to
              > guarantee that each soldier had a proper quota of arrows, not a
              > shooting requirement.
              >
              > kinjal
              >
              >
              >
              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
              > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
              > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
              >
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yours in Service;
              >
              > Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
              > Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
              > Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands
              >
              > When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another.
              It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain
              nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it
              is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the
              bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
              > -- Maurice Thompson
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
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              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
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              --
              Ex Tenebra, Lux

              http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
            • hawkwoode@att.net
              I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises, along with a bow case. Visit the website at www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture of
              Message 6 of 17 , May 7, 2004
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                I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises, along with a bow case. Visit the website at www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture of the bag. Click on the arms and armor listing to see the line of archery equipment, which includes self-nock arrows and bodkin points of various types.

                Elizabeth Hawkwood




                --
                Nothing's Forgotten - Nothing is
                Ever Forgotten


                > Ohh that just hurts. I have seen Sir Rand the tracker keep 3 arrows in his bow
                > hand during the speed round and just don't know how he does it! Maybe my hands
                > are just too small.
                >
                > I have read about spacers that werer used by archers in the 100 years war. They
                > were used to keep the flechings from getting messed up but it should also keep
                > the arrows quit.
                >
                > Kinjal of Moravia <gusarimagic@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Any decent quivers out there that take care of this while
                > remaining in
                > > period? My persona is 16th century Scottish, so what would he
                > have used?
                > >
                > > Just curious.
                > >
                > > Alisdar Mac Giolle Chroiste
                >
                > ...................................................
                >
                > my shoddy research in all provinces suggest that they carried three
                > arrows in bow hand and perhaps no quiver at all! Interestingly, if
                > you draw with arrows in hand you get a different 'sight picture',
                > and can use the arrows as range points -- just a thought. My
                > earliest suggestion of a quiver was a way for Charlamagne to
                > guarantee that each soldier had a proper quota of arrows, not a
                > shooting requirement.
                >
                > kinjal
                >
                >
                >
                > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                >
                > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yours in Service;
                >
                > Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
                > Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
                > Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands
                >
                > When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a
                > miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it.
                > Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's
                > miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath
                > escape the shot was so well sent..
                > -- Maurice Thompson
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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                > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                >
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                >
              • Tighearn Mac Con mac Conaill
                WOW! Now that is period. I will have to get one. Nice to see one done so well and for a very fair price. hawkwoode@att.net wrote:I have an arrow bag that I
                Message 7 of 17 , May 7, 2004
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                  WOW! Now that is period. I will have to get one. Nice to see one done so well and for a very fair price.

                  hawkwoode@... wrote:I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises, along with a bow case. Visit the website at www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture of the bag. Click on the arms and armor listing to see the line of archery equipment, which includes self-nock arrows and bodkin points of various types.

                  Elizabeth Hawkwood




                  --
                  Nothing's Forgotten - Nothing is
                  Ever Forgotten


                  > Ohh that just hurts. I have seen Sir Rand the tracker keep 3 arrows in his bow
                  > hand during the speed round and just don't know how he does it! Maybe my hands
                  > are just too small.
                  >
                  > I have read about spacers that werer used by archers in the 100 years war. They
                  > were used to keep the flechings from getting messed up but it should also keep
                  > the arrows quit.
                  >
                  > Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Any decent quivers out there that take care of this while
                  > remaining in
                  > > period? My persona is 16th century Scottish, so what would he
                  > have used?
                  > >
                  > > Just curious.
                  > >
                  > > Alisdar Mac Giolle Chroiste
                  >
                  > ...................................................
                  >
                  > my shoddy research in all provinces suggest that they carried three
                  > arrows in bow hand and perhaps no quiver at all! Interestingly, if
                  > you draw with arrows in hand you get a different 'sight picture',
                  > and can use the arrows as range points -- just a thought. My
                  > earliest suggestion of a quiver was a way for Charlamagne to
                  > guarantee that each soldier had a proper quota of arrows, not a
                  > shooting requirement.
                  >
                  > kinjal
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                  > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                  > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                  >
                  > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yours in Service;
                  >
                  > Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
                  > Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
                  > Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands
                  >
                  > When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a
                  > miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it.
                  > Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's
                  > miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath
                  > escape the shot was so well sent..
                  > -- Maurice Thompson
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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                  > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                  > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                  Yours in Service;

                  Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald
                  Quartermaster of the Barony of Dragonsspine
                  Forester Archer of the Kingdom of the Outlands

                  When you shoot with a gun, one miss is just as vexatious as another. It is a miss -- maybe an inch, maybe an ell, who knows? -- and you gain nothing from it. Your bird is missed, that is all. But with the bow it is the reverse. Will's miss was almost as pleasurable as a hit -- the bird had such a hair breath escape the shot was so well sent..
                  -- Maurice Thompson













                  ---------------------------------
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nathaniel S. Prentice
                  Hiya. Thanks for the response to my email. I put a bunch of snippets together. The way to read this is the response I am referring to can be found
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 8, 2004
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                    Hiya. Thanks for the response to my email. I put a bunch of snippets
                    together. The way to read this is the response I am referring to can be
                    found underneath my response.

                    ------------------------------

                    Now this is a truly interesting idea. I wonder if this would be allowed in
                    a tournament...

                    my shoddy research in all provinces suggest that they carried three
                    arrows in bow hand and perhaps no quiver at all! Interestingly, if
                    you draw with arrows in hand you get a different 'sight picture',
                    and can use the arrows as range points -- just a thought. My
                    earliest suggestion of a quiver was a way for Charlamagne to
                    guarantee that each soldier had a proper quota of arrows, not a
                    shooting requirement.

                    kinjal

                    Actually, my character is late 1500's Scot. I would be afraid to hunt with
                    a purely cloth quiver--what if I fell and the arrows went into my gut? I
                    can see how using a sheepskin liner would work for the arrows on the
                    outside, but what about the jostling between the ones on the inside?
                    Ahhhhh the archer bag that I have read about. At times I wonder if quivers
                    are period at all for a 1340 Scot. Matters not I love my hip quiver but I
                    would like to make a bag like the one described.

                    "LD.BLACKMOON" <LD.BLACKMOON@...> wrote:GREETINGS

                    MY EARLIEST DOCUMENTATION SHOWS NO QUIVER AT ALL. JUST A CLOTH " SHEAF "
                    TUCKED UNDER THE ARCHERS BELT BEHIND HIS BACK. THIS WAS DURING THE AGINCOURT
                    ERA.
                    FOR HUNTING , I HAVE FOUND THAT SHEEPSKIN IN THE BOTTOM AND AROUND THE TOP
                    OF A LEATHER QUIVER DOES WONDERS FOR KEEPING THE ARROWS QUIET,
                    BUT JUST CARRYING A FEW IN THE BELT WORKS BEST OF ALL .

                    BE SAFE, BE HAPPY, HAVE FUN
                    ARTHUR BLACKMOON


                    I like the arrow bag that you found. It sounds like it fits the description
                    of what some people on the Net have mentioned about the Mary Rose archers.
                    Being a newbie who is just coming off of his training wheels (i.e. compound
                    bow), what exactly is a "spacer"? I think I could probably make one of my
                    own versions of that. Linen scares me, though, for reasons I already
                    stated.

                    Message: 5
                    Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 18:36:33 +0000
                    From: hawkwoode@...
                    Subject: Re: Re: Quiver Shivers

                    I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises, along with a
                    bow case. Visit the website at www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture
                    of the bag. Click on the arms and armor listing to see the line of archery
                    equipment, which includes self-nock arrows and bodkin points of various
                    types.

                    Elizabeth Hawkwood

                    :(

                    With a quiver, noise is always something to overcome.
                    ..................................................
                    Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe - OP, Midrealm Forester
                    "Take thou no scorn to wear the horn; It was a crest ere thou wast born"
                    - As You Like It Act 4, Scene II

                    Thanks for the input, guys. I was actually thinking that it would be OK to
                    break a few rules--I'd be willing to bet the Scots didn't have many bows at
                    all, or if they did, they were too prrrroud to use them, in any case.

                    I like the idea of the linen quiver. I wonder if anyone out there might
                    have a schematic...



                    Alisdar Mac Giolle Chroiste

                    Archer-in-training, Barony of Bhakail



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Carolus Eulenhorst
                    Actually, the bags and spacers referred to on this list were storage bags used to ship arrows. The points were gathered in the narrow end of the bag and the
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 9, 2004
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                      Actually, the bags and spacers referred to on this list were storage bags
                      used to ship arrows. The points were gathered in the narrow end of the
                      bag and the nocks placed in the holes of the spacers to prevent crushing
                      the fletchings. When the wide end of the bag was opened, a leather disc
                      with 24 protruding nocks was all that was seen. Then entire sheaf of
                      arrows had to be removed and then the arrows could be removed from the
                      spacer. Contemporary account state that the arrows were issued to the
                      archers who then carried them loose to their position on the line and
                      stuck them in the ground before them.

                      All of which is fine for the military archer. However, our target
                      archery is much more akin to hunting, roving, or the noble target
                      shooting of period. As to practices of the period in this regard nothing
                      has been said. Frankly I have not looked into it either.
                      Carolus

                      On Fri, 07 May 2004 09:12:12 -0700 jay <ravnville@...> writes:
                      > Greetings all,
                      >
                      > I've used the "belt method" for a few years now (excepting my
                      > current
                      > gaffiation ;) and I've been
                      > relatively successful with it. A wider (2+ inches) belt seems to
                      > work
                      > better than the narrower ones.
                      >
                      > Regarding spacers, wasn't there something in the Mary Rose findings
                      > that
                      > seemed to be a quiver spacer? That is, a leather disk with a dozen
                      > or so
                      > holes punched in it? It would work well enough for
                      > bodkin-type heads, but not for broadheads.
                      >
                      > Calum
                      >
                      > At 5/7/04 07:12 AM, you wrote:
                      > >Period archers only carried a few arrows, often tucked in a belt.
                      > No
                      > >quiver to worry about when hunting.
                      > >Carolus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                      > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
                      > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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                      > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this
                      > list]
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

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                    • David Thompson-Hall
                      ... Definitely an awesome sight - does anyone know what they sell their bodkins for, when they re in stock? Also, I am very curious about the book they cited
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 9, 2004
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                        At 6:36 PM +0000 5/7/04, hawkwoode@... wrote:
                        >I have an arrow bag that I purchased from Historic Enterprises,
                        >along with a bow case. Visit the website at
                        >www.historicenterprises.com to see a picture of the bag. Click on
                        >the arms and armor listing to see the line of archery equipment,
                        >which includes self-nock arrows and bodkin points of various types.

                        Definitely an awesome sight - does anyone know what they sell their
                        bodkins for, when they're in stock?

                        Also, I am very curious about the book they cited on the web page as
                        their source for the arrow bag and other stuff - "The Medieval
                        Soldier" by Embleton & Howe. If anyone has read this book, can you
                        tell me more about it? What other reconstructions does it have?


                        Jack
                        always glad to find more sources for cool and period stuff


                        --
                        >>>>>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
                        THL John Bartholomew of Flanders, AoA, CDB, CGC, OSN, Watchman jbf@...
                        Barony of Jararvellir, Northshield, Midrealm www.pobox.com/~jbf
                      • Godwin fitzGilbert de Striguil
                        Not only were the arrows delivered in the sheaf bags, but 1/3 to 1/4 of of each sheaf were flight arrows, the rest being the larger and heavier shafts used in
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 10, 2004
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                          Not only were the arrows delivered in the sheaf bags, but 1/3 to 1/4 of
                          of each sheaf were flight arrows, the rest being the larger and heavier
                          shafts used in 'closer' ranges.

                          The arrows "in use" were tucked into the belt, whilst the arrows of
                          "next use" were stuck in the ground.

                          As far as naming ash for arrow woods, Ascham lists it as a favorite
                          amongst others, in Toxophilus. Most of the arrows on the Mary Rose were
                          breasted poplar shafts.

                          Godwin
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