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Re: Trebuchet episode on Nova (PBS) last night

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  • Keith Hood
    ... It s one of those things that makes perfect sense AFTER you see it. The rolling helps dampen the arm swing after the shot. ... I ve seen the same thing
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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      >
      >(Who'd have guessed that putting wheels on a fixed-weight treb would >cause
      >it to be more efficient?)
      >

      It's one of those things that makes perfect sense AFTER you see it. The
      rolling helps dampen the arm swing after the shot.


      >
      >My question to the group is: Did you notice the longbowman's release? He
      >pushed forward
      >with his body and almost pushed the string out of the release. That seemed
      >a little weird
      >to me and wonder if anyone else has an opinion.
      >

      I've seen the same thing done in documentaries about archery contests in
      Nepal and Bhutan. I think they do it mainly on the theory that it adds just
      a touch more range. They release while actually running toward the target.

      I think in a way it does make sense, if you're going to use a live release
      with a heavy bow. If you used just the string arm to make a live release,
      then you have to stress the muscles of that arm and shoulder. Maybe it's
      easier on the string arm and shoulder if you supply the force by using all
      the muscles on the other side of the body.

      Also, it may be a touch more accurate. If you make the release by holding
      the string hand still and pushing into the back of the bow, you're pushing
      the arrow toward the target. If you did it the other way around and made a
      live release by holding the bow still and pulling back with the string hand,
      then there's a chance you may inadvertently swing the butt of the arrow one
      way or the other, which would angle the point away from the proper line
      toward the target. There's still some chance that pushing the bow may swing
      the arrow off line, but less of a chance because the body is moving with the
      line of force, rather than being torqued the way it would if your live
      release comes from the string side.


      >
      >Loved the part where the longbowman got close to the armored dummy >and put
      >a shaft RIGHT THROUGH him.
      >

      I missed the first half of the program because of a traffic snarl, !#@$#@.
      What were the particulars of the shot? Draw weight, type of point,
      type/quality of armor, etc.?


      Tomonaga



      --
      A long bow and a strong bow,
      And let the sky grow dark.
      The nock to the cord, the shaft to the ear,
      And a foreign king for a mark!

      -- Stolen from "The Song of the Bosonian Archers" --
      By Robert E. Howard, who should be
      the patron saint of Ansteorra

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    • GR Auklandus
      ... Thanks for your insight into the longbowman s style. I need to think on this... ... They didn t say anything about it. The point was a simple two-edged war
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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        --- Keith Hood <keith_dell@...> wrote:
        Thanks for your insight into the longbowman's style. I need to think on this...

        --------various things snipped----------------

        > I missed the first half of the program because of a traffic snarl, !#@$#@.
        > What were the particulars of the shot? Draw weight, type of point,
        > type/quality of armor, etc.?
        >
        >
        > Tomonaga
        They didn't say anything about it. The point was a simple two-edged war point. (Come to
        think of it, I didn't see any blade marks in the armor.) The armor seemed to be fairly
        standard late-period breastplate. Much later, in my opinion, than the 1300's they were
        purporting to be emulating. (Would have been more transition-type armor, i.e. more
        chainmail, than they showed.) But nobody said much about it. As my lady pointed out, much
        more armor than the standard "pull-the-rope" serf would have worn.

        Griffin

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      • GR Auklandus
        ... Griffin Rusted Woodlands, East ... Long goodbyes give the enemy time to aim. Kaled a in Proverb (from _The Black Gryphon_)
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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          > Posting this from my friend who's not on the list.
          >
          > > Re: specifics on the longbow used in the special, all I could tell you was
          > > that it was a period style (good old English D-section) wooden longbow with
          > > a fairly low fistmele. They didn't say anything about draw weight, type of
          > > arrowhead, etc. The archer made several shots from about 200 yards which
          > > came fairly close to the dummy, then moved up to about 25(?) yards, if that,
          > > and put his shaft all the way through breastplate (thickness & quality of
          > > armoring unknown)and dummy - the only part that didn't pass through was the
          > > fletched end of the shaft.
          > >
          > > Check your local PBS stations - I'm sure this will be rebroadcast in the
          > > near future if you want to see what you missed.
          > >
          > > Cheers,
          > > Jehanne de Woodford, Rusted Woodlands

          Griffin
          Rusted Woodlands, East

          =====
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          Long goodbyes give the enemy time to aim.
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        • Steitan99@cs.com
          Didn t see the show but your description of the archer s form reminds me of a passage in Longbow which may have been quoted from Toxophilus that goes
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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            Didn't see the show but your description of the archer's form
            reminds me of a passage in "Longbow" which may have been
            quoted from"Toxophilus" that goes something like- to draw the
            arrow the archer had to step into the bow.
            When you consider that war bows ranged from 80# to 140#
            it seems plausible an archer would use his body instead of just
            his arms to draw (or push) these weights.
            Steitan
          • GR Auklandus
            ... If it had been done to draw the bow, I might not have been confused. He drew the bow fairly regularly. It was when he pushed the release the I wondered.
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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              --- Steitan99@... wrote:
              > Didn't see the show but your description of the archer's form
              > reminds me of a passage in "Longbow" which may have been
              > quoted from"Toxophilus" that goes something like- to draw the
              > arrow the archer had to step into the bow.
              > When you consider that war bows ranged from 80# to 140#
              > it seems plausible an archer would use his body instead of just
              > his arms to draw (or push) these weights.
              > Steitan

              If it had been done to draw the bow, I might not have been confused. He drew the bow
              fairly regularly. It was when he pushed the release the I wondered.

              Griffin
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            • Chris Nogy
              ... the bow ... Having drawn a 100 pound longbow, I will tell you that is is natural to spring forward at release. You are pulling with a fluid lever (your
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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                > From: GR Auklandus <sircai@...>, on 2/2/00 2:17 PM:
                > If it had been done to draw the bow, I might not have been confused. He drew
                the bow
                > fairly regularly. It was when he pushed the release the I wondered.
                >
                Having drawn a 100 pound longbow, I will tell you that is is natural to spring
                forward at release. You are pulling with a fluid lever (your draw arm) against
                a fixed brace (your bow arm and the left side of your body). You are pushing a
                great deal with that arm, and actually find yourself leaning into the bow to
                help maintain steadiness. Just like your release hand goes back when you relax
                your fingers (with substantial force), suddenly your forearm doesn't have
                anything to push against, and you do sort of 'spring' forward. This is not
                nearly as pronounced in lighter bows, but it does happen. It is a bows
                equivalent of 'recoil' and you get lots more of it when you are using a really
                heavy bow.

                Kaz
              • Karl Sandhoff
                They didn t give any info about the archery tackle except what you saw. Carolus von Eulenhorst On Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:49:56 PST Keith Hood
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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                  They didn't give any info about the archery tackle except what you saw.
                  Carolus von Eulenhorst

                  On Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:49:56 PST "Keith Hood" <keith_dell@...>
                  writes:
                  >From: "Keith Hood" <keith_dell@...>
                  >
                  >>snip<<
                  >
                  >I missed the first half of the program because of a traffic snarl,
                  >!#@$#@.
                  >What were the particulars of the shot? Draw weight, type of point,
                  >type/quality of armor, etc.?
                  >
                  >
                  > Tomonaga
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >--
                  >A long bow and a strong bow,
                  >And let the sky grow dark.
                  >The nock to the cord, the shaft to the ear,
                  >And a foreign king for a mark!
                  >
                  > -- Stolen from "The Song of the Bosonian Archers" --
                  > By Robert E. Howard, who should be
                  > the patron saint of Ansteorra
                  >
                  >______________________________________________________

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                • corr.mhaire@juno.com
                  The following was what I sent to the Outlands List earlier, If you get any of the stations based with Denver channel 6 this is the schedule To those
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 2, 2000
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                    The following was what I sent to the Outlands List earlier, If you get
                    any of the stations based with Denver channel 6 this is the schedule

                    To those interested I just checked my Promo Magazine (supporters program
                    guide for KRMA, KRMH & KTSC public broadcasting channels) and the
                    schedule for the Lost Empires segment on Medieval Siege is scheduled for
                    Tues Feb 1 at 7:00pm with a repeat Sun Feb 6 at 11:00 am

                    "Medieval Siege, historians try to recreate the fearson catapult
                    "Warwolf" used by England's King Edward I"


                    If you're interested the series is as follows. and is scheduled 7:00pm
                    Tues repeat 11:00am Sun
                    The series explores ancient secrets as modern day experts try to
                    replicate the engineering feats of the ages.
                    1 Medieeval Siege (trebuchet building and firing)
                    2 Pharaoh's Obelisk (raising a solid stone obelisk)
                    3 Easter Island (the giant stone statues)
                    4 Roman Bath (cerating a working replica)
                    5 China Bridge (Song dynasty rainbow bridge)

                    On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:18:42 -0800 (PST) GR Auklandus <sircai@...>
                    writes:
                    > From: GR Auklandus <sircai@...>
                    >
                    > > Posting this from my friend who's not on the list.
                    >
                    > > >
                    > > > Check your local PBS stations - I'm sure this will be
                    > rebroadcast in the
                    > > > near future if you want to see what you missed.
                    > > >
                    >

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                  • allan@KERSHAW.usc.edu
                    Greetings all, Even though I did not see any mention of who the archer was or any details about his equipment other that his shots went about 200 yards, I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 3, 2000
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                      Greetings all,

                      Even though I did not see any mention of who the archer was or any details about
                      his equipment other that his shots went about 200 yards, I believe I recognized
                      him. I think this is Simon Stanley and the bow he is using is one of the Mary
                      Rose Approximation Bows. His picture in the book ' Longbow A Social and Military
                      History' by Robert Hardy (page 210 in my edition) and they look the same to me.
                      This is the gentleman who is testing the MRA bows. In the book, they say that
                      MRA 1 tested at 102.4 lb. at 30 inch draw. There are no specs given for the
                      other two that were made other than saying that the three bows ranged from 100
                      to 120 lb draw. They also mention plans to make some bows in the 150 to 160 lb
                      range. Here is a quote from the book regarding Mr. Stanley's abilities.

                      The experimental Team has now been joined by a remarkable longbowman, Simon
                      Stanley from Staffordshire, who can master bows of weights that defeat most
                      archers. He has been shooting MRA's 1, 2, and 3 for hours together,
                      untiring and in complete control. So far the results suggest very firmly
                      that medieval military archers might expect to engage with lighter types of
                      arrow at 300 yards and over, and that 275 yards is not an exaggerated range
                      for heavy war arrows shot from heavy war bows.

                      What we saw on the show bears this out.

                      Please, remember that this is just my guess, if someone else knows differently,
                      then by all means let us know so we can correctly assign credit where due.


                      Yours in service to the Dream,

                      Lord Phelan of Penguinroost
                      Master of Archers
                      Caid

                      email: allan@...
                      www: www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bench/6931/




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                      From: Karl Sandhoff <eulenhorst@...>

                      They didn't give any info about the archery tackle except what you saw.
                      Carolus von Eulenhorst

                      On Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:49:56 PST "Keith Hood" <keith_dell@...>
                      writes:
                      >From: "Keith Hood" <keith_dell@...>
                      >
                      >>snip<<
                      >
                      >I missed the first half of the program because of a traffic snarl,
                      >!#@$#@.
                      >What were the particulars of the shot? Draw weight, type of point,
                      >type/quality of armor, etc.?
                      >
                      >
                      > Tomonaga
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >--
                      >A long bow and a strong bow,
                      >And let the sky grow dark.
                      >The nock to the cord, the shaft to the ear,
                      >And a foreign king for a mark!
                      >
                      > -- Stolen from "The Song of the Bosonian Archers" --
                      > By Robert E. Howard, who should be
                      > the patron saint of Ansteorra
                      >
                      >______________________________________________________

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