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Re: [SCA-Archery] Parthian simulation

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  • Karl W. Evoy
    This may be Kingdom specific (and I don t recall you saying where you lived) but I have heard that the Middle Kingdom Equestrians are working on, or have in
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 25, 2004
      This may be Kingdom specific (and I don't recall you saying where you
      lived) but I have heard that the Middle Kingdom Equestrians are working on,
      or have in place, mounted archer certification. Given that the horse is
      probably a bigger safety issue in this than the bow, you would probably want
      to deal with your kingdom's EQ Marshal.
      Ancel
    • peterson476ce
      Hello, I am new to both the list and archery in general. My persona s name is Raimundo de Cabrera de la frontera. He is a 15th century spaniard that is
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 25, 2004
        Hello,

        I am new to both the list and archery in general. My persona's
        name is Raimundo de Cabrera de la frontera. He is a 15th century
        spaniard that is middle-class, urban and lives in the Balearic
        Islands (the ones between Sardinia and Spain). As a result, I have
        determined that he should be trained, for missile-fire, in light
        crossbow. At this time and place there is, as some of you may know,
        the iberian tradition of combat class called "jinete", which
        basically can be reduced to light cavalry influence that originated
        with the moors, as far as Iberia is concerned. I know that I should
        get some basic experience with the crossbow that I have before doing
        anything fancey, but at least for some point in the future, my
        question is how do I simulate reasonably firing from horseback,
        without actually getting a horse. I probably will never be able to
        afford a horse, so this is definately not something that I am pressed
        for time over. I just wonder what are everybody's suggestions for a
        false mount that I can shoot at something behind me, with or without
        an adarga (a moorish all-leather torso-sized center-grip shield ) on
        my right arm (yes, I am a lefty). Also, I have never seen a quiver
        that is situated on the calf but always on the hips. If riding "a la
        jinete", with my legs so compressed that I could somewhat easily
        reach my ankle if I wanted to, what are your thoughts on placement of
        the quiver: hips, calf, or on the saddle itself?

        Sinceramente Suyo, Robert Peterson.
      • Sean Westman
        A broom stick would work great for a horse! Just kidding. Unless you actually have a horse you are not really not going to have any luck with this one. You
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 26, 2004
          A broom stick would work great for a horse! Just kidding. Unless you actually have a horse you are not really not going to have any luck with this one. You cannot simulate what it would be like in a combat situation sitting stationary on anything. Furthermore I am not even sure they allow a horse on the SCA battlefield by way of regulation. Hmmm I think I need to look into this one. I am considering getting a horse myself.

          Sean

          peterson476ce <peterson717@...> wrote:
          Hello,

          I am new to both the list and archery in general. My persona's
          name is Raimundo de Cabrera de la frontera. He is a 15th century
          spaniard that is middle-class, urban and lives in the Balearic
          Islands (the ones between Sardinia and Spain). As a result, I have
          determined that he should be trained, for missile-fire, in light
          crossbow. At this time and place there is, as some of you may know,
          the iberian tradition of combat class called "jinete", which
          basically can be reduced to light cavalry influence that originated
          with the moors, as far as Iberia is concerned. I know that I should
          get some basic experience with the crossbow that I have before doing
          anything fancey, but at least for some point in the future, my
          question is how do I simulate reasonably firing from horseback,
          without actually getting a horse. I probably will never be able to
          afford a horse, so this is definately not something that I am pressed
          for time over. I just wonder what are everybody's suggestions for a
          false mount that I can shoot at something behind me, with or without
          an adarga (a moorish all-leather torso-sized center-grip shield ) on
          my right arm (yes, I am a lefty). Also, I have never seen a quiver
          that is situated on the calf but always on the hips. If riding "a la
          jinete", with my legs so compressed that I could somewhat easily
          reach my ankle if I wanted to, what are your thoughts on placement of
          the quiver: hips, calf, or on the saddle itself?

          Sinceramente Suyo, Robert Peterson.




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        • J. Hughes
          First of all work toward the mounted crossbow in stages. Even if the final result is beyond you, the attempt is a worthy quest. My thoughts on this are derived
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 26, 2004
            First of all work toward the mounted crossbow in
            stages. Even if the final result is beyond you, the
            attempt is a worthy quest. My thoughts on this are
            derived from Mamluk and Magrib Islamic manuscripts
            (both cultures in constant contact with the people of
            AL Andalusia. Learn the crossbow, as a hook is the
            most probable spanning devise for mounted crossbow in
            Spain, get and use a hook. A stationary stand will
            allow you to practice the positions in firing. To
            achieve the range of shots in the manuscript, you will
            need a very large cleared practice area. Learn to ride
            a horse, well. Arrange to fire from a stationary
            horse. Have someone gently walk the horse while you
            fire. Proceed only then to doing yourself and at any
            greater speed. Again, this comes from the manuscripts
            not personal experience. My regional marshal and I
            keep talking of doing this some day, but you could be
            assured that we would keep safety first.

            This is all on your own. If you wanted to do it at an
            event what we have found out is the equestrians are
            more of a problem than archers. They have rules that
            would prevent it. (Based on a fear of a horse steping
            on a point or broken bolt). Combat archery bolts might
            eliminate that problem.

            I am still trying to research anything I can get on
            the crossbowmen of Iberia, Islamic or Christian. So
            any thing you come across I would appreciate.

            Charles O'Connor
            --- peterson476ce <peterson717@...> wrote:
            > Hello,
            >
            > I am new to both the list and archery in
            > general. My persona's
            > name is Raimundo de Cabrera de la frontera. He is a
            > 15th century
            > spaniard that is middle-class, urban and lives in
            > the Balearic
            > Islands (the ones between Sardinia and Spain). As a
            > result, I have
            > determined that he should be trained, for
            > missile-fire, in light
            > crossbow. At this time and place there is, as some
            > of you may know,
            > the iberian tradition of combat class called
            > "jinete", which
            > basically can be reduced to light cavalry influence
            > that originated
            > with the moors, as far as Iberia is concerned. I
            > know that I should
            > get some basic experience with the crossbow that I
            > have before doing
            > anything fancey, but at least for some point in the
            > future, my
            > question is how do I simulate reasonably firing from
            > horseback,
            > without actually getting a horse. I probably will
            > never be able to
            > afford a horse, so this is definately not something
            > that I am pressed
            > for time over. I just wonder what are everybody's
            > suggestions for a
            > false mount that I can shoot at something behind me,
            > with or without
            > an adarga (a moorish all-leather torso-sized
            > center-grip shield ) on
            > my right arm (yes, I am a lefty). Also, I have
            > never seen a quiver
            > that is situated on the calf but always on the hips.
            > If riding "a la
            > jinete", with my legs so compressed that I could
            > somewhat easily
            > reach my ankle if I wanted to, what are your
            > thoughts on placement of
            > the quiver: hips, calf, or on the saddle itself?
            >
            > Sinceramente Suyo,
            > Robert Peterson.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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            > Medieval Mart
            > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's
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            > leave this list]
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            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
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            >
            >


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          • Bruce R. Gordon
            Greetings If you live in the Midrealm, note that we are verrrry verrrry slooooowly moving in the direction of mounted archery, at least as demo stuff. I don t
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 26, 2004
              Greetings
              If you live in the Midrealm, note that we are verrrry verrrry
              slooooowly moving in the direction of mounted archery, at least as demo
              stuff. I don't forsee a time when actual horses will be allowed on a
              range, even stationary (but note: at this next Pennsic there will be an
              effort to provide a simulated mounted experience as a novelty shoot -
              saddle on wheels pulled by trusty minions), but there are a number of
              people here who have an interest in the subject, I like the basic
              concept, and I'm open to ideas and suggestions on the topic. If you
              like, I could have some of the folk who know this or that on the
              subject contact you.
              As far as details of crossbow work are concerned, first step is
              learning how to load safely without a foot-ring. That means getting a
              belt-hook system and practicing with it.

              Cordially
              Nigel FitzMaurice, Midrealm AG


              > Hello,
              >
              > I am new to both the list and archery in general. My persona's
              > name is Raimundo de Cabrera de la frontera. He is a 15th century
              > spaniard that is middle-class, urban and lives in the Balearic
              > Islands (the ones between Sardinia and Spain). As a result, I have
              > determined that he should be trained, for missile-fire, in light
              > crossbow. At this time and place there is, as some of you may know,
              > the iberian tradition of combat class called "jinete", which
              > basically can be reduced to light cavalry influence that originated
              > with the moors, as far as Iberia is concerned. I know that I should
              > get some basic experience with the crossbow that I have before doing
              > anything fancey, but at least for some point in the future, my
              > question is how do I simulate reasonably firing from horseback,
              > without actually getting a horse. I probably will never be able to
              > afford a horse, so this is definately not something that I am pressed
              > for time over. I just wonder what are everybody's suggestions for a
              > false mount that I can shoot at something behind me, with or without
              > an adarga (a moorish all-leather torso-sized center-grip shield ) on
              > my right arm (yes, I am a lefty). Also, I have never seen a quiver
              > that is situated on the calf but always on the hips. If riding "a la
              > jinete", with my legs so compressed that I could somewhat easily
              > reach my ankle if I wanted to, what are your thoughts on placement of
              > the quiver: hips, calf, or on the saddle itself?
              >
              > Sinceramente Suyo, Robert Peterson.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
              > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
              > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
              >
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Ex Tenebra, Lux

              http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
            • Carolus Eulenhorst
              First thing to do is research the types of crossbows used by the warriors you have in mind. I am not well versed in the Iberian cultures but the more northern
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 26, 2004
                First thing to do is research the types of crossbows used by the warriors
                you have in mind. I am not well versed in the Iberian cultures but the
                more northern cultures seemed to use a short crossbow without a shoulder
                stock. Compares to a conventional crossbow as a riot gun does to a
                shotgun. This will affect the way you would use the weapon. Simulating
                this in anything but the most rudimentary form would be difficult because
                of the 3 dimensional movement of the horse. You could mount a saddle on
                a high sawhorse leaving your feet in the stirrups but off the ground.
                This will give you a feel for keeping your balance as you turn and move.
                It does not, however, give you any of the feedback you would get from a
                trained horse nor does it allow any of the ability of horse and rider to
                work as a team thus allowing the horse to do some of the work of
                positioning you.

                Did these horsemen shoot from horseback or did they operate more as
                dragoons riding to their position, dismounting, fighting on foot, and
                remounting to move again? Tactical issues like these also need to be
                addressed.

                You mention a torso sized center boss shield. This requires the use of
                your hand to hold and control and would therefore not be used by a bowman
                who needs both hands to control his weapon.

                From the description you give of the rider's position, I would suspect a
                hip quiver would not be used as the angle would be difficult to maintain
                with a secure suspension. Likewise, I would not recommend a calf quiver.
                I use one for target shooting but the motion involved in combat would
                make it useless. This leaves a saddle mounted quiver. This would be
                most likely as the mounting would be stable, position constant, and
                little thought would be needed to get the next bolt. Again, research is
                the name of the game here.

                In service to the dream
                Carolus von Eulenhorst
                eulenhorst@...
                Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com)



                On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 02:39:42 -0000 "peterson476ce"
                <peterson717@...> writes:
                > Hello,
                >
                > I am new to both the list and archery in general. My persona's
                >
                > name is Raimundo de Cabrera de la frontera. He is a 15th century
                > spaniard that is middle-class, urban and lives in the Balearic
                > Islands (the ones between Sardinia and Spain). As a result, I have
                >
                > determined that he should be trained, for missile-fire, in light
                > crossbow. At this time and place there is, as some of you may know,
                >
                > the iberian tradition of combat class called "jinete", which
                > basically can be reduced to light cavalry influence that originated
                >
                > with the moors, as far as Iberia is concerned. I know that I should
                >
                > get some basic experience with the crossbow that I have before doing
                >
                > anything fancey, but at least for some point in the future, my
                > question is how do I simulate reasonably firing from horseback,
                > without actually getting a horse. I probably will never be able to
                >
                > afford a horse, so this is definately not something that I am
                > pressed
                > for time over. I just wonder what are everybody's suggestions for a
                >
                > false mount that I can shoot at something behind me, with or without
                >
                > an adarga (a moorish all-leather torso-sized center-grip shield ) on
                >
                > my right arm (yes, I am a lefty). Also, I have never seen a quiver
                >
                > that is situated on the calf but always on the hips. If riding "a
                > la
                > jinete", with my legs so compressed that I could somewhat easily
                > reach my ankle if I wanted to, what are your thoughts on placement
                > of
                > the quiver: hips, calf, or on the saddle itself?
                >
                > Sinceramente Suyo, Robert Peterson.

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              • James Tollett
                as for the crossbow i do not have much knowledge..or the horse (u could use one of the broom handle horses like i had as a kid playing cowboy & indians{i was
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 26, 2004
                  as for the crossbow i do not have much knowledge..or the horse (u
                  could use one of the broom handle horses like i had as a kid playing
                  cowboy & indians{i was always the indian})... but if you check
                  primitive archer magazine, they are online also. they often have
                  articals concerning hungarian style horse archer's.. i would recomend
                  this as just a starting point. but could give you a good idea about
                  actually shooting from a horse.. iwould love to do this myself but
                  their is no way i can afford a horse, or place to keep one.. anybody
                  got some good lottery numbers for TN or GA???
                  James "the disturbed"





                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "peterson476ce"
                  <peterson717@h...> wrote:
                  > Hello,
                  >
                  > I am new to both the list and archery in general. My persona's
                  > name is Raimundo de Cabrera de la frontera. He is a 15th century
                  > spaniard that is middle-class, urban and lives in the Balearic
                  > Islands (the ones between Sardinia and Spain). As a result, I have
                  > determined that he should be trained, for missile-fire, in light
                  > crossbow. At this time and place there is, as some of you may
                  know,
                  > the iberian tradition of combat class called "jinete", which
                  > basically can be reduced to light cavalry influence that originated
                  > with the moors, as far as Iberia is concerned. I know that I
                  should
                  > get some basic experience with the crossbow that I have before
                  doing
                  > anything fancey, but at least for some point in the future, my
                  > question is how do I simulate reasonably firing from horseback,
                  > without actually getting a horse. I probably will never be able to
                  > afford a horse, so this is definately not something that I am
                  pressed
                  > for time over. I just wonder what are everybody's suggestions for
                  a
                  > false mount that I can shoot at something behind me, with or
                  without
                  > an adarga (a moorish all-leather torso-sized center-grip shield )
                  on
                  > my right arm (yes, I am a lefty). Also, I have never seen a quiver
                  > that is situated on the calf but always on the hips. If riding "a
                  la
                  > jinete", with my legs so compressed that I could somewhat easily
                  > reach my ankle if I wanted to, what are your thoughts on placement
                  of
                  > the quiver: hips, calf, or on the saddle itself?
                  >
                  > Sinceramente Suyo, Robert Peterson.
                • Ragnar Ketilsson
                  Two quick observations: When simulating a horse, a 55 gallon drum is a better simulation than a bare sawhorse - horses are -wide- critters, as the equestrians
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 27, 2004
                    Two quick observations:

                    When simulating a horse, a 55 gallon drum is a better
                    simulation than a bare sawhorse - horses are -wide-
                    critters, as the equestrians know and the rest of us
                    find out the first time we inflict ourselves on some
                    unsuspecting mount.

                    Secondly, I cannot strongly enough second Charles'
                    stepwise approach: a cocking hook provides less margin
                    for error than a foot stirrup, and a short-stocked bow
                    can wipe a wider arc faster. Both of these realities
                    mean you need to be very sure of your bow handling on
                    foot before you move on, and that you must be very
                    disciplined about 'muzzle' control after your bow is
                    loaded.

                    Please keep posting your progress - I for one find the
                    idea fascinating!

                    Keep the pointy stuff flying downrange,
                    Ragnar Ketilsson

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                  • jameswolfden
                    Last November, I had the chance to visit an advanced Chinese Archery class being run by Stephen Selby, author of Chinese Archery and owner of the url
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 27, 2004
                      Last November, I had the chance to visit an advanced Chinese Archery
                      class being run by Stephen Selby, author of Chinese Archery and owner
                      of the url www.atarn.org.

                      This is a copy of the observations I posted to our local group about
                      what I saw. I have clipped out some stuff about the beginners class.
                      I think some of this might be useful but it was done with Asian style
                      bows and not crossbows.

                      "In the Qing Dynasty, the draw was more to the ear. In the Ming
                      Dynasty, the draw was to the chest (based on period illustrations).
                      Today, Stephen was having the students switch from Qing to Ming.
                      Since the Ming release increases the drawlength, he had them switch
                      to longer arrows (about 33 inches). The students practised their
                      release into the archery net. Targets were not set up until much
                      later in the lesson.

                      The advanced class also went through some nocking drills but they
                      weren't allowed to look. This was followed by some marching drills to
                      a drum beat. Then this was combined as two columns of archers marched
                      forward to the shooting line, nocked and released all to the beating
                      of a drum. The two columns was also done to encourage some
                      competition.

                      The next nocking drill was even more energetic. Steven wanted to
                      simulate horse archery in the gymnasium. He had the archers hop to
                      the shooting line on one foot nocking the arrow as they went. They
                      were allowed to stand still for the release.

                      The next drill was a relay race. Two chairs were set up at the
                      shooting line in front of each column of archers. Each archer had
                      three arrows in their belt. They had to run up and go around the
                      chairs releasing while in front of the chair. And then run back to
                      tag off to the next archer.

                      The targets were finally set up for the last set of drills.

                      The purpose of the next drill was to simulate the different shooting
                      positions when advancing, when turning the horse around, and while
                      retreating. To do this, you must picture that you are riding a horse.
                      (I think I will add drawings if I send this to the Northwind.)

                      When approaching the target, you will be straddling the horse like so
                      x0x where x is your feet and 0 is the horses body. But don't forget
                      about the horse's head. You will need to cant the bow.

                      When turning, your feet are now in a traditional archery stance and
                      the horse's body isn't interfering with your shot. When retreating,
                      you are facing away from the target and the horse's rump is in the
                      way so you have to cant the bow again.

                      The first time to the line, the archer shot from the approaching
                      position. The second time from the turning position. The third time
                      from the retreating position. All good fun to watch but then it got
                      even better. After a while, Stephen wanted them to get the feel of
                      the horses' movement so he had them bouncing up and down while
                      shooting to simulate the horse."

                      Some caveats. This was done within the context of a class where the
                      coach can watch the progress and determine what the students could
                      safely handle next. If doing two lines, give a good separation to
                      them.

                      If doing a novelty shoot, I would mock up a horse including head and
                      tail as previously suggested. Each archer would be allowed one shot
                      with horse pointed towards the target, broadside to the target, and
                      facing away from the target. No time limit for safety reasons. No
                      movement of the horse. I will let others figure out the crossbow
                      sweep safety issue.

                      James Wolfden
                    • eulenhorst@juno.com
                      If the Qing draw was to the ear and the Ming to the chest, doesn t that make the Qing longer than the Ming rather than the reverse? Or am I missing something
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 27, 2004
                        If the Qing draw was to the ear and the Ming to the chest, doesn't that make the Qing longer than the Ming rather than the reverse? Or am I missing something here?

                        In Service to the dream
                        Carolus von Eulenhorst
                        eulenhorst@...

                        -- "jameswolfden" <jameswolfden@...> wrote:
                        Last November, I had the chance to visit an advanced Chinese Archery
                        class being run by Stephen Selby, author of Chinese Archery and owner
                        of the url www.atarn.org.

                        This is a copy of the observations I posted to our local group about
                        what I saw. I have clipped out some stuff about the beginners class.
                        I think some of this might be useful but it was done with Asian style
                        bows and not crossbows.

                        "In the Qing Dynasty, the draw was more to the ear. In the Ming
                        Dynasty, the draw was to the chest (based on period illustrations).
                        Today, Stephen was having the students switch from Qing to Ming.
                        Since the Ming release increases the drawlength, he had them switch
                        to longer arrows (about 33 inches). The students practised their
                        release into the archery net. Targets were not set up until much
                        later in the lesson.

                        The advanced class also went through some nocking drills but they
                        weren't allowed to look. This was followed by some marching drills to
                        a drum beat. Then this was combined as two columns of archers marched
                        forward to the shooting line, nocked and released all to the beating
                        of a drum. The two columns was also done to encourage some
                        competition.

                        The next nocking drill was even more energetic. Steven wanted to
                        simulate horse archery in the gymnasium. He had the archers hop to
                        the shooting line on one foot nocking the arrow as they went. They
                        were allowed to stand still for the release.

                        The next drill was a relay race. Two chairs were set up at the
                        shooting line in front of each column of archers. Each archer had
                        three arrows in their belt. They had to run up and go around the
                        chairs releasing while in front of the chair. And then run back to
                        tag off to the next archer.

                        The targets were finally set up for the last set of drills.

                        The purpose of the next drill was to simulate the different shooting
                        positions when advancing, when turning the horse around, and while
                        retreating. To do this, you must picture that you are riding a horse.
                        (I think I will add drawings if I send this to the Northwind.)

                        When approaching the target, you will be straddling the horse like so
                        x0x where x is your feet and 0 is the horses body. But don't forget
                        about the horse's head. You will need to cant the bow.

                        When turning, your feet are now in a traditional archery stance and
                        the horse's body isn't interfering with your shot. When retreating,
                        you are facing away from the target and the horse's rump is in the
                        way so you have to cant the bow again.

                        The first time to the line, the archer shot from the approaching
                        position. The second time from the turning position. The third time
                        from the retreating position. All good fun to watch but then it got
                        even better. After a while, Stephen wanted them to get the feel of
                        the horses' movement so he had them bouncing up and down while
                        shooting to simulate the horse."

                        Some caveats. This was done within the context of a class where the
                        coach can watch the progress and determine what the students could
                        safely handle next. If doing two lines, give a good separation to
                        them.

                        If doing a novelty shoot, I would mock up a horse including head and
                        tail as previously suggested. Each archer would be allowed one shot
                        with horse pointed towards the target, broadside to the target, and
                        facing away from the target. No time limit for safety reasons. No
                        movement of the horse. I will let others figure out the crossbow
                        sweep safety issue.

                        James Wolfden




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                      • jameswolfden
                        ... that make the Qing longer than the Ming rather than the reverse? Or am I missing something here? ... It depends on what side of the chest you are drawing
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 27, 2004
                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, eulenhorst@j... wrote:
                          >
                          > If the Qing draw was to the ear and the Ming to the chest, doesn't
                          that make the Qing longer than the Ming rather than the reverse? Or
                          am I missing something here?
                          >
                          > In Service to the dream
                          > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                          > eulenhorst@j...

                          It depends on what side of the chest you are drawing to. When I tried
                          to practise it back home, I found the mongolian draw in either case
                          increased my drawlength by a large margin. But your anchor is not
                          dependent on your string hand but your bow hand. Full draw was
                          determined by the arrowhead making contact with the middle finger of
                          the bow hand. Using field points, I would feel for the lip where the
                          point was attached to the shaft. Don't wear gloves and don't over
                          draw. That said, one of the Ming manuals on the Atarn site states
                          that for horse archery, you should always get to at least 90% of full
                          draw, implying that short drawing was common.

                          James Wolfden
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