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Re: [SCA-Archery] new thread- was "Talhoffer and Mounted Crossbowman"

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  • Ian Griffen
    I will try to answer with in the text of the missive below. You will find my comments in ( ). Ian Griffen the Archer Master Baron James Cunningham ( Master
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 5 10:08 PM
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      I will try to answer with in the text of the missive below. You will find my comments in ( ).


      Ian Griffen the Archer


      Master Baron James Cunningham


      ( Master James, there is no disrespect taken I understand your position. One of the things I look for while designing and Marshaling a shoot is the safety to all who are on the range. )



      > Ian,
      > It would be period to have him flogged for disrespect. I think he is
      > copying my "audience" routine. And he is disrespectful of your position.
      > Anybody "period police" out there with some period punishment suggestions
      > to get us through this cold winter night?
      >
      > Teagus Kohen


      ( I have been on this list for several years and I have found Master James to be straight forward and willing to share his knowledge to all that asks. Even though I have never meet Master James I have a lot of respect for him. I hope someday I will have the chance to meet him. )

      >
      >>
      >
      > At 05:53 PM 2/5/2004 -0500, you wrote:
      > >Please extrapolate on what your "safety issues" are. Which ones would
      not
      > >allow this type of shoot? Are they the same for handbow as well? I am
      sure
      > >you have an interested audience.
      > >
      > >James Cunningham
      > >

      ( Safety issues I have with this shoot is that the archer will not have complete control of His/Her weapon. The chance of premature release of the bolt/arrow is to great. Also the physical stress and discomfort that will happen when the archer has their body twisted during shooting. The lack of a clear view of the majority of the range. All of the above can affect the safety of the range if done in the standing position. )


      > > > > safety issues though -- need to be careful what direction you point
      > > > > the bow
      > > > > as you load it! What seems to work best is if the tail end of the
      > > > > bolt fits
      > > > > snugly into the roller-nut. Really hard to steady the bolt otherwise
      > > > > (and
      > > > > would be worse on horseback).
      > > > >
      > > > > -Lyev


      ( Also look at the statements above. In my head they setoff an alarm. )


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    • Tessa the Huntress
      *Tessa FWIW, when I ve run a scenerio similar to this.. I ve had the archers use combat bolts/missiles. SOmetimes using combat missiles let s you have shoots
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 5 10:18 PM
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        *Tessa FWIW, when I've run a scenerio similar to this.. I've had the archers
        use combat bolts/missiles. SOmetimes using combat missiles let's you have
        shoots that you can't do safely with target missiles.

        Just a thought..

        Tessa the Huntress

        I will try to answer with in the text of the missive below. You will find
        my comments in ( ).

        ( Safety issues I have with this shoot is that the archer will not have
        complete control of His/Her weapon. The chance of premature release of the
        bolt/arrow is to great. Also the physical stress and discomfort that will
        happen when the archer has their body twisted during shooting. The lack of
        a clear view of the majority of the range. All of the above can affect the
        safety of the range if done in the standing position. )
      • Carolus Eulenhorst
        Unfortunately, as we have seen already, target bolts can cause serious injury to someone not properly armored. As I doubt anyone at a target range would have
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 6 10:15 AM
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          Unfortunately, as we have seen already, target bolts can cause serious
          injury to someone not properly armored. As I doubt anyone at a target
          range would have the proper armor, even this option presents too much
          chance of injury to be allowed on our ranges. The US in general but
          California in particular is litigation happy (and having recently done
          some research into the matter have found that this has been the case for
          a century now) thus making this a very high risk activity.
          Carolus


          On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 01:18:55 -0500 "Tessa the Huntress"
          <tessathehuntress@...> writes:
          > *Tessa FWIW, when I've run a scenerio similar to this.. I've had the
          > archers
          > use combat bolts/missiles. SOmetimes using combat missiles let's
          > you have
          > shoots that you can't do safely with target missiles.
          >
          > Just a thought..
          >
          > Tessa the Huntress

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        • Tessa the Huntress
          Actually, when I ve done scenerios like this.. we used golf tube arrows with the thrusting style head (2 to 3 ) of foam padding on 30 # and 600 # crossbows.
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 6 10:45 AM
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            Actually, when I've done scenerios like this.. we used golf tube arrows with
            the thrusting style head (2 to 3") of foam padding on 30 # and 600"#
            crossbows. Those don't even cause a bruise if they hit you..

            It's not something I would recommend doing if you were planning on shooting
            someone who wasn't in armor.. but if it was for a shoot that hasn't benn run
            before, for a bit of added security/safety.. it is an option.

            Of course, bottom line is what the marshal running the range (and teh one in
            charge) think. There have been scenerios and set ups that I've seen before
            that I've shut down or refused to run, since I did not feel they were safe.

            I mentioned using the combat arrows, since it is another option.. for
            specific scenerios and situations..

            No one has to use them :)

            Tessa


            Unfortunately, as we have seen already, target bolts can cause serious
            injury to someone not properly armored. As I doubt anyone at a target
            range would have the proper armor, even this option presents too much
            chance of injury to be allowed on our ranges. The US in general but
            California in particular is litigation happy (and having recently done
            some research into the matter have found that this has been the case for
            a century now) thus making this a very high risk activity.
            Carolus


            On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 01:18:55 -0500 "Tessa the Huntress"
            <tessathehuntress@...> writes:
            > *Tessa FWIW, when I've run a scenerio similar to this.. I've had the
            > archers
            > use combat bolts/missiles. SOmetimes using combat missiles let's
            > you have
            > shoots that you can't do safely with target missiles.
            >
            > Just a thought..
            >
            > Tessa the Huntress

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          • John Edgerton
            I do not see any real safety problem with a Parthian Shot as long as the bow or crossbow is only pointed at the ground until it is in line with the target and
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 6 11:19 AM
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              I do not see any real safety problem with a Parthian Shot as long as the
              bow or crossbow is only pointed at the ground until it is in line with
              the target and then can be brought up to aim at the target. I would also
              add, that the shooter should be in a stable position and not balancing
              on one foot, etc. I would not like to see it done where the shooter is
              facing away from the target and then turns, with cocked crossbow or hand
              bow up and at draw, 180 degrees to face the target. This could allow
              releases in directions other than toward the target or into the ground
              and is not safe.

              Jon
            • s.l.rees@ieee.org
              We did a mounted shoot at our Baronnial Champions last year. The finalists sat on a mount facing angled away from the targets. They shot looking back
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 6 11:26 AM
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                We did a 'mounted' shoot at our Baronnial Champions last year. The
                finalists sat on a 'mount' facing angled away from the targets. They shot
                looking back onto the target range. No one was beyond the shooting line
                and we had no problems with safety.

                Now, this was not a timed round, so they could look back and draw at their
                leisure. For a crossbow, they could have cocked it, looked back, loaded
                and shot. We did not have a crossbow in the finals. But I think it would
                have been fine.

                I'm looking forward to possibly doing this shoot again. Depending on what
                contest our champion wants her successor to go through.
                Shadhra
                Madrone Baronnial Archer


                > I do not see any real safety problem with a Parthian Shot as long as the
                > bow or crossbow is only pointed at the ground until it is in line with
                > the target and then can be brought up to aim at the target. I would also
                > add, that the shooter should be in a stable position and not balancing
                > on one foot, etc. I would not like to see it done where the shooter is
                > facing away from the target and then turns, with cocked crossbow or hand
                > bow up and at draw, 180 degrees to face the target. This could allow
                > releases in directions other than toward the target or into the ground
                > and is not safe.
                >
                > Jon
                >
              • J. Hughes
                We had a mounted shoot at the Archers to the Wald event in Steltonwald. It was from a stationary horse frame and aimed forward. _Saracen Archery_, I
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 6 11:43 AM
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                  We had a "mounted shoot" at the Archers to the Wald
                  event in Steltonwald. It was from a stationary "horse"
                  frame and aimed forward. _Saracen Archery_, I believe
                  (it might also be _Arab Archery_), has an entire
                  training program for mounted archery that my people
                  would like to shoot. My regional marshal, Mistress
                  Aleea, keeps trying to get up a party to travel to
                  Iowa for the mounted Archery event (non Society) they
                  hold each year.

                  I am still researching the various cultures that had
                  mounted crossbowmen on how they worked their spanning
                  devices. Some sort of hook on the belt, saddle, or
                  stirrup probably.

                  Charles O'Connor
                  --- s.l.rees@... wrote:
                  > We did a 'mounted' shoot at our Baronnial Champions
                  > last year. The
                  > finalists sat on a 'mount' facing angled away from
                  > the targets. They shot
                  > looking back onto the target range. No one was
                  > beyond the shooting line
                  > and we had no problems with safety.
                  >
                  > Now, this was not a timed round, so they could look
                  > back and draw at their
                  > leisure. For a crossbow, they could have cocked it,
                  > looked back, loaded
                  > and shot. We did not have a crossbow in the finals.
                  > But I think it would
                  > have been fine.
                  >
                  > I'm looking forward to possibly doing this shoot
                  > again. Depending on what
                  > contest our champion wants her successor to go
                  > through.
                  > Shadhra
                  > Madrone Baronnial Archer


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                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                  Greetings Ian I hope someday I will have the chance to meet him. ) I will be at Lillies/Gulf War and Maybe Pennsic this year...You will find me
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 6 3:48 PM
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                    Greetings Ian

                    <Snip>
                    I hope someday I will have the chance to meet him. )
                    <snip>
                    I will be at Lillies/Gulf War and Maybe Pennsic this year...You will find me
                    on the Archery Range or with my hawk.

                    Your points are well thought out. I have seen this shoot done safely and
                    not so safely. The key is that you need a safety zone not only infront of
                    the archer but also in any direction that he can swing his bow(left or
                    right). Like flying targets you have to leave room for early and late
                    shots. Some ranges cannot handle 90 degrees of clear area. But shooting at
                    the lions chasing your horse is very period.(not safe but period).

                    James Cunningham

                    > ( Safety issues I have with this shoot is that the archer will not have
                    complete control of His/Her weapon. The chance of premature release of the
                    bolt/arrow is to great. Also the physical stress and discomfort that will
                    happen when the archer has their body twisted during shooting. The lack of
                    a clear view of the majority of the range. All of the above can affect the
                    safety of the range if done in the standing position. )
                    <snip>
                    >
                  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                    I have seen someting similar. A turn, load, and shoot. It that cuts down the angle a little, but still requires close supervision. James Cunningham
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 6 4:30 PM
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                      I have seen someting similar. A turn, load, and shoot. It that cuts down
                      the angle a little, but still requires close supervision.

                      James Cunningham

                      > I do not see any real safety problem with a Parthian Shot as long as the
                      > bow or crossbow is only pointed at the ground until it is in line with
                      > the target and then can be brought up to aim at the target. I would also
                      > add, that the shooter should be in a stable position and not balancing
                      > on one foot, etc. I would not like to see it done where the shooter is
                      > facing away from the target and then turns, with cocked crossbow or hand
                      > bow up and at draw, 180 degrees to face the target. This could allow
                      > releases in directions other than toward the target or into the ground
                      > and is not safe.
                      >
                      > Jon
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Dan Scheid
                      ok I m sorry but siting on a barrel or fence or what ever is not anywhere near working off a horse. Can it be done safely? YES. But it is not easy to have a
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 6 5:18 PM
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                        ok I'm sorry but siting on a barrel or fence or what ever is not anywhere
                        near working off a horse.
                        Can it be done safely? YES. But it is not easy to have a place. Where you
                        can ride safe and shoot safe and keep everyone else safe. Your looking a a 5
                        acre field to be sure you not going to A) hurt the horse B) hurt someone
                        watching. or C) hurt yourself.
                        And for those that don't know me.
                        well ask Carolus for the picture of the last GWW
                        Damales who is a little grumpy today

                        > We had a "mounted shoot" at the Archers to the Wald
                        > event in Steltonwald. It was from a stationary "horse"
                        > frame and aimed forward. _Saracen Archery_, I believe
                        > (it might also be _Arab Archery_), has an entire
                        > training program for mounted archery that my people
                        > would like to shoot. My regional marshal, Mistress
                        > Aleea, keeps trying to get up a party to travel to
                        > Iowa for the mounted Archery event (non Society) they
                        > hold each year.
                        >
                        > I am still researching the various cultures that had
                        > mounted crossbowmen on how they worked their spanning
                        > devices. Some sort of hook on the belt, saddle, or
                        > stirrup probably.
                        >
                        > Charles O'Connor
                        > --- s.l.rees@... wrote:
                        > > We did a 'mounted' shoot at our Baronnial Champions
                        > > last year. The
                        > > finalists sat on a 'mount' facing angled away from
                        > > the targets. They shot
                        > > looking back onto the target range. No one was
                        > > beyond the shooting line
                        > > and we had no problems with safety.
                        > >
                        > > Now, this was not a timed round, so they could look
                        > > back and draw at their
                        > > leisure. For a crossbow, they could have cocked it,
                        > > looked back, loaded
                        > > and shot. We did not have a crossbow in the finals.
                        > > But I think it would
                        > > have been fine.
                        > >
                        > > I'm looking forward to possibly doing this shoot
                        > > again. Depending on what
                        > > contest our champion wants her successor to go
                        > > through.
                        > > Shadhra
                        > > Madrone Baronnial Archer
                        >
                        >
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