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Re: [SCA-Archery] new thread- was "Talhoffer and Mounted Crossbowman"

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  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
    Greetings Lord Ian Griffen the Archer, Deputy Royal Archer, Kingdom of Atenveldt I guess you will have to expain your audience routine also. I am not
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 5, 2004
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      Greetings Lord Ian Griffen the Archer, Deputy Royal Archer, Kingdom of
      Atenveldt

      I guess you will have to expain "your audience routine" also. I am not
      trying to to be disrespectful of "your position". I work with a lot of new
      archery marshals from many kingdoms and have a need to know specific
      reasoning behind "positions" so I can better instruct marshals when they are
      working at interkingdom events.

      Master Baron James Cunningham


      > Ian,
      > It would be period to have him flogged for disrespect. I think he is
      > copying my "audience" routine. And he is disrespectful of your position.
      > Anybody "period police" out there with some period punishment suggestions
      > to get us through this cold winter night?
      >
      > Teagus Kohen
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > At 05:53 PM 2/5/2004 -0500, you wrote:
      > >Please extrapolate on what your "safety issues" are. Which ones would
      not
      > >allow this type of shoot? Are they the same for handbow as well? I am
      sure
      > >you have an interested audience.
      > >
      > >James Cunningham
      > >
      > > > Do to the safety issues, this would not be allowed on any of the
      ranges in
      > >Atenveldt.
      > > >
      > > > Lord Ian Griffen the Archer
      > > > Deputy Royal Archer
      > > > Kingdom of Atenveldt
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
      > > > Considering some safety issues I have had here in Caid, this would be
      > > > definitely out on our line.
      > > > Carolus
      > > >
      > > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:54:08 -0500 "L.J. Sparvero"
      > > > writes:
      > > > > My short article is now uploaded into the files section, if I had
      > > > > known
      > > > > there was interest I would have gotten it up sooner!
      > > > >
      > > > > I've considered a shoot where the crossbowmen have to shoot at a
      > > > > close
      > > > > target with the crossbow pointed *behind* them, as described. Lots
      > > > > of
      > > > > safety issues though -- need to be careful what direction you point
      > > > > the bow
      > > > > as you load it! What seems to work best is if the tail end of the
      > > > > bolt fits
      > > > > snugly into the roller-nut. Really hard to steady the bolt otherwise
      > > > > (and
      > > > > would be worse on horseback).
      > > > >
      > > > > -Lyev
      > >
      > >
      > >
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    • Ian Griffen
      I will try to answer with in the text of the missive below. You will find my comments in ( ). Ian Griffen the Archer Master Baron James Cunningham ( Master
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 5, 2004
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        I will try to answer with in the text of the missive below. You will find my comments in ( ).


        Ian Griffen the Archer


        Master Baron James Cunningham


        ( Master James, there is no disrespect taken I understand your position. One of the things I look for while designing and Marshaling a shoot is the safety to all who are on the range. )



        > Ian,
        > It would be period to have him flogged for disrespect. I think he is
        > copying my "audience" routine. And he is disrespectful of your position.
        > Anybody "period police" out there with some period punishment suggestions
        > to get us through this cold winter night?
        >
        > Teagus Kohen


        ( I have been on this list for several years and I have found Master James to be straight forward and willing to share his knowledge to all that asks. Even though I have never meet Master James I have a lot of respect for him. I hope someday I will have the chance to meet him. )

        >
        >>
        >
        > At 05:53 PM 2/5/2004 -0500, you wrote:
        > >Please extrapolate on what your "safety issues" are. Which ones would
        not
        > >allow this type of shoot? Are they the same for handbow as well? I am
        sure
        > >you have an interested audience.
        > >
        > >James Cunningham
        > >

        ( Safety issues I have with this shoot is that the archer will not have complete control of His/Her weapon. The chance of premature release of the bolt/arrow is to great. Also the physical stress and discomfort that will happen when the archer has their body twisted during shooting. The lack of a clear view of the majority of the range. All of the above can affect the safety of the range if done in the standing position. )


        > > > > safety issues though -- need to be careful what direction you point
        > > > > the bow
        > > > > as you load it! What seems to work best is if the tail end of the
        > > > > bolt fits
        > > > > snugly into the roller-nut. Really hard to steady the bolt otherwise
        > > > > (and
        > > > > would be worse on horseback).
        > > > >
        > > > > -Lyev


        ( Also look at the statements above. In my head they setoff an alarm. )


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      • Tessa the Huntress
        *Tessa FWIW, when I ve run a scenerio similar to this.. I ve had the archers use combat bolts/missiles. SOmetimes using combat missiles let s you have shoots
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 5, 2004
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          *Tessa FWIW, when I've run a scenerio similar to this.. I've had the archers
          use combat bolts/missiles. SOmetimes using combat missiles let's you have
          shoots that you can't do safely with target missiles.

          Just a thought..

          Tessa the Huntress

          I will try to answer with in the text of the missive below. You will find
          my comments in ( ).

          ( Safety issues I have with this shoot is that the archer will not have
          complete control of His/Her weapon. The chance of premature release of the
          bolt/arrow is to great. Also the physical stress and discomfort that will
          happen when the archer has their body twisted during shooting. The lack of
          a clear view of the majority of the range. All of the above can affect the
          safety of the range if done in the standing position. )
        • Carolus Eulenhorst
          Unfortunately, as we have seen already, target bolts can cause serious injury to someone not properly armored. As I doubt anyone at a target range would have
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 6, 2004
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            Unfortunately, as we have seen already, target bolts can cause serious
            injury to someone not properly armored. As I doubt anyone at a target
            range would have the proper armor, even this option presents too much
            chance of injury to be allowed on our ranges. The US in general but
            California in particular is litigation happy (and having recently done
            some research into the matter have found that this has been the case for
            a century now) thus making this a very high risk activity.
            Carolus


            On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 01:18:55 -0500 "Tessa the Huntress"
            <tessathehuntress@...> writes:
            > *Tessa FWIW, when I've run a scenerio similar to this.. I've had the
            > archers
            > use combat bolts/missiles. SOmetimes using combat missiles let's
            > you have
            > shoots that you can't do safely with target missiles.
            >
            > Just a thought..
            >
            > Tessa the Huntress

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          • Tessa the Huntress
            Actually, when I ve done scenerios like this.. we used golf tube arrows with the thrusting style head (2 to 3 ) of foam padding on 30 # and 600 # crossbows.
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 6, 2004
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              Actually, when I've done scenerios like this.. we used golf tube arrows with
              the thrusting style head (2 to 3") of foam padding on 30 # and 600"#
              crossbows. Those don't even cause a bruise if they hit you..

              It's not something I would recommend doing if you were planning on shooting
              someone who wasn't in armor.. but if it was for a shoot that hasn't benn run
              before, for a bit of added security/safety.. it is an option.

              Of course, bottom line is what the marshal running the range (and teh one in
              charge) think. There have been scenerios and set ups that I've seen before
              that I've shut down or refused to run, since I did not feel they were safe.

              I mentioned using the combat arrows, since it is another option.. for
              specific scenerios and situations..

              No one has to use them :)

              Tessa


              Unfortunately, as we have seen already, target bolts can cause serious
              injury to someone not properly armored. As I doubt anyone at a target
              range would have the proper armor, even this option presents too much
              chance of injury to be allowed on our ranges. The US in general but
              California in particular is litigation happy (and having recently done
              some research into the matter have found that this has been the case for
              a century now) thus making this a very high risk activity.
              Carolus


              On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 01:18:55 -0500 "Tessa the Huntress"
              <tessathehuntress@...> writes:
              > *Tessa FWIW, when I've run a scenerio similar to this.. I've had the
              > archers
              > use combat bolts/missiles. SOmetimes using combat missiles let's
              > you have
              > shoots that you can't do safely with target missiles.
              >
              > Just a thought..
              >
              > Tessa the Huntress

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            • John Edgerton
              I do not see any real safety problem with a Parthian Shot as long as the bow or crossbow is only pointed at the ground until it is in line with the target and
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 6, 2004
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                I do not see any real safety problem with a Parthian Shot as long as the
                bow or crossbow is only pointed at the ground until it is in line with
                the target and then can be brought up to aim at the target. I would also
                add, that the shooter should be in a stable position and not balancing
                on one foot, etc. I would not like to see it done where the shooter is
                facing away from the target and then turns, with cocked crossbow or hand
                bow up and at draw, 180 degrees to face the target. This could allow
                releases in directions other than toward the target or into the ground
                and is not safe.

                Jon
              • s.l.rees@ieee.org
                We did a mounted shoot at our Baronnial Champions last year. The finalists sat on a mount facing angled away from the targets. They shot looking back
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 6, 2004
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                  We did a 'mounted' shoot at our Baronnial Champions last year. The
                  finalists sat on a 'mount' facing angled away from the targets. They shot
                  looking back onto the target range. No one was beyond the shooting line
                  and we had no problems with safety.

                  Now, this was not a timed round, so they could look back and draw at their
                  leisure. For a crossbow, they could have cocked it, looked back, loaded
                  and shot. We did not have a crossbow in the finals. But I think it would
                  have been fine.

                  I'm looking forward to possibly doing this shoot again. Depending on what
                  contest our champion wants her successor to go through.
                  Shadhra
                  Madrone Baronnial Archer


                  > I do not see any real safety problem with a Parthian Shot as long as the
                  > bow or crossbow is only pointed at the ground until it is in line with
                  > the target and then can be brought up to aim at the target. I would also
                  > add, that the shooter should be in a stable position and not balancing
                  > on one foot, etc. I would not like to see it done where the shooter is
                  > facing away from the target and then turns, with cocked crossbow or hand
                  > bow up and at draw, 180 degrees to face the target. This could allow
                  > releases in directions other than toward the target or into the ground
                  > and is not safe.
                  >
                  > Jon
                  >
                • J. Hughes
                  We had a mounted shoot at the Archers to the Wald event in Steltonwald. It was from a stationary horse frame and aimed forward. _Saracen Archery_, I
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 6, 2004
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                    We had a "mounted shoot" at the Archers to the Wald
                    event in Steltonwald. It was from a stationary "horse"
                    frame and aimed forward. _Saracen Archery_, I believe
                    (it might also be _Arab Archery_), has an entire
                    training program for mounted archery that my people
                    would like to shoot. My regional marshal, Mistress
                    Aleea, keeps trying to get up a party to travel to
                    Iowa for the mounted Archery event (non Society) they
                    hold each year.

                    I am still researching the various cultures that had
                    mounted crossbowmen on how they worked their spanning
                    devices. Some sort of hook on the belt, saddle, or
                    stirrup probably.

                    Charles O'Connor
                    --- s.l.rees@... wrote:
                    > We did a 'mounted' shoot at our Baronnial Champions
                    > last year. The
                    > finalists sat on a 'mount' facing angled away from
                    > the targets. They shot
                    > looking back onto the target range. No one was
                    > beyond the shooting line
                    > and we had no problems with safety.
                    >
                    > Now, this was not a timed round, so they could look
                    > back and draw at their
                    > leisure. For a crossbow, they could have cocked it,
                    > looked back, loaded
                    > and shot. We did not have a crossbow in the finals.
                    > But I think it would
                    > have been fine.
                    >
                    > I'm looking forward to possibly doing this shoot
                    > again. Depending on what
                    > contest our champion wants her successor to go
                    > through.
                    > Shadhra
                    > Madrone Baronnial Archer


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                  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                    Greetings Ian I hope someday I will have the chance to meet him. ) I will be at Lillies/Gulf War and Maybe Pennsic this year...You will find me
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 6, 2004
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                      Greetings Ian

                      <Snip>
                      I hope someday I will have the chance to meet him. )
                      <snip>
                      I will be at Lillies/Gulf War and Maybe Pennsic this year...You will find me
                      on the Archery Range or with my hawk.

                      Your points are well thought out. I have seen this shoot done safely and
                      not so safely. The key is that you need a safety zone not only infront of
                      the archer but also in any direction that he can swing his bow(left or
                      right). Like flying targets you have to leave room for early and late
                      shots. Some ranges cannot handle 90 degrees of clear area. But shooting at
                      the lions chasing your horse is very period.(not safe but period).

                      James Cunningham

                      > ( Safety issues I have with this shoot is that the archer will not have
                      complete control of His/Her weapon. The chance of premature release of the
                      bolt/arrow is to great. Also the physical stress and discomfort that will
                      happen when the archer has their body twisted during shooting. The lack of
                      a clear view of the majority of the range. All of the above can affect the
                      safety of the range if done in the standing position. )
                      <snip>
                      >
                    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                      I have seen someting similar. A turn, load, and shoot. It that cuts down the angle a little, but still requires close supervision. James Cunningham
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 6, 2004
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                        I have seen someting similar. A turn, load, and shoot. It that cuts down
                        the angle a little, but still requires close supervision.

                        James Cunningham

                        > I do not see any real safety problem with a Parthian Shot as long as the
                        > bow or crossbow is only pointed at the ground until it is in line with
                        > the target and then can be brought up to aim at the target. I would also
                        > add, that the shooter should be in a stable position and not balancing
                        > on one foot, etc. I would not like to see it done where the shooter is
                        > facing away from the target and then turns, with cocked crossbow or hand
                        > bow up and at draw, 180 degrees to face the target. This could allow
                        > releases in directions other than toward the target or into the ground
                        > and is not safe.
                        >
                        > Jon
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Dan Scheid
                        ok I m sorry but siting on a barrel or fence or what ever is not anywhere near working off a horse. Can it be done safely? YES. But it is not easy to have a
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 6, 2004
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                          ok I'm sorry but siting on a barrel or fence or what ever is not anywhere
                          near working off a horse.
                          Can it be done safely? YES. But it is not easy to have a place. Where you
                          can ride safe and shoot safe and keep everyone else safe. Your looking a a 5
                          acre field to be sure you not going to A) hurt the horse B) hurt someone
                          watching. or C) hurt yourself.
                          And for those that don't know me.
                          well ask Carolus for the picture of the last GWW
                          Damales who is a little grumpy today

                          > We had a "mounted shoot" at the Archers to the Wald
                          > event in Steltonwald. It was from a stationary "horse"
                          > frame and aimed forward. _Saracen Archery_, I believe
                          > (it might also be _Arab Archery_), has an entire
                          > training program for mounted archery that my people
                          > would like to shoot. My regional marshal, Mistress
                          > Aleea, keeps trying to get up a party to travel to
                          > Iowa for the mounted Archery event (non Society) they
                          > hold each year.
                          >
                          > I am still researching the various cultures that had
                          > mounted crossbowmen on how they worked their spanning
                          > devices. Some sort of hook on the belt, saddle, or
                          > stirrup probably.
                          >
                          > Charles O'Connor
                          > --- s.l.rees@... wrote:
                          > > We did a 'mounted' shoot at our Baronnial Champions
                          > > last year. The
                          > > finalists sat on a 'mount' facing angled away from
                          > > the targets. They shot
                          > > looking back onto the target range. No one was
                          > > beyond the shooting line
                          > > and we had no problems with safety.
                          > >
                          > > Now, this was not a timed round, so they could look
                          > > back and draw at their
                          > > leisure. For a crossbow, they could have cocked it,
                          > > looked back, loaded
                          > > and shot. We did not have a crossbow in the finals.
                          > > But I think it would
                          > > have been fine.
                          > >
                          > > I'm looking forward to possibly doing this shoot
                          > > again. Depending on what
                          > > contest our champion wants her successor to go
                          > > through.
                          > > Shadhra
                          > > Madrone Baronnial Archer
                          >
                          >
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