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Re: [SCA-Archery] Back quiver VS. Hip quiver- further study

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  • Karl W. Evoy
    Well..aside for the date of the Iceman being far to early to be relevent, the statement offers no proof that he in fact had a back quiver, just an opinion.
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 25, 2004
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      Well..aside for the date of the Iceman being far to early to be
      relevent, the statement offers no proof that he in fact had a back quiver,
      just an opinion.
      Ancel

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@...>
      To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 1:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Back quiver VS. Hip quiver- further study


      Great! As the governing documents state no early cutoff we have now
      established the back quiver as period and, by the rules we use,
      documentable and acceptable. Now, the question as to whether it was
      culturally appropriate for any of our personas is another matter.

      Carolus

      On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 9:43:51 -0700 <sayokom@...> writes:
      > I have been watching the debate of whether or not the back quiver is
      > period or
      > not, and if there was even ANY precedence for them.
      >
      > I started to research this issue myself because I am rather partial
      > to the back
      > quiver. I came across the Ötzi, the Iceman and found out that he
      > had a quiver
      > with some arrows in it. But all the information that I read did not
      > tell me
      > whether or not it was a back or hip quiver.
      >
      > So, I emailed the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Italy with
      > the question
      > of whether or not the Iceman carried a back or hip quiver, and the
      > following is
      > the answer I got back from them:
      >
      > referring to your question about the Iceman we can tell that he
      > surely had a
      > back quiver.
      > Below some information about it:
      > "The quiver is made of a rectangular, elongated hide bag that tapers
      > slightly
      > towards the bottom. The piece of hide was held together lengthways
      > and
      > supported by a 9.-cm-long hazel wood rod. This supporting strut had
      > already
      > been broken into three sections during Ötzi's lifetime. The lid and
      > the
      > carrying strap were missing. The elaborately decorated side pocket
      > remains in
      > good condition however.
      > The quiver contained twelve rough arrow shafts and two finished
      > arrows. The
      > unfinished shafts are between 84 and 87 cm long and made of the
      > shoots of
      > viburnum sapwood. Their bark had been removed but not yet smoothed
      > down and all
      > had notches cut into the ends.
      > Both finished arrows have flint arrowheads, fixed to the shaft with
      > birch tar
      > and then bound with thread. These arrows are unique in that the
      > shafts display
      > the remains of three-part radial fletching, attached with birch tar
      > and bound
      > with thin nettle fibres. This fletching served to stabilize the
      > arrow during
      > flight. One of the arrows had an extended shaft made of cornel wood
      > inserted
      > into the top.
      > The quiver also held four tips of stag antlers tied together with
      > strips of
      > bast. There was also a bent antler tip that the Iceman probably used
      > for
      > skinning the animals he had hunted.
      > Besides two animal sinews, there was also a ball of tree bast string
      > some two
      > metres long. The irregular and inelastic nature of this cord makes
      > it unlikely
      > that it colud have served as a bowstring."
      >
      > From: "Ötzi, the Iceman - A full facts at a glance" Author: Angelika
      >
      > Fleckinger, Folio-Editor
      >
      > I hope that I could help you. Please don't hesitate to contact me
      > for any
      > further information.
      >
      > Kind wishes,
      >
      > Melitta Franceschini
      > South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology
      > www.iceman.it
      >
      > So, the back quiver is actually PRE-period and there is precendence
      > for back
      > quivers in the SCA. I hope that this puts fuel to the fire and
      > supports back
      > quiver usage.
      >
      > Sabra
      >
      >
      >
      > ---8<---------------------------------------------
      > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
      > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
      >
      > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this
      > list]
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >

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    • sayokom@adelphia.net
      I have been watching the debate of whether or not the back quiver is period or not, and if there was even ANY precedence for them. I started to research this
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 27, 2004
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        I have been watching the debate of whether or not the back quiver is period or
        not, and if there was even ANY precedence for them.

        I started to research this issue myself because I am rather partial to the back
        quiver. I came across the Ötzi, the Iceman and found out that he had a quiver
        with some arrows in it. But all the information that I read did not tell me
        whether or not it was a back or hip quiver.

        So, I emailed the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Italy with the question
        of whether or not the Iceman carried a back or hip quiver, and the following is
        the answer I got back from them:

        referring to your question about the Iceman we can tell that he surely had a
        back quiver.
        Below some information about it:
        "The quiver is made of a rectangular, elongated hide bag that tapers slightly
        towards the bottom. The piece of hide was held together lengthways and
        supported by a 9.-cm-long hazel wood rod. This supporting strut had already
        been broken into three sections during Ötzi's lifetime. The lid and the
        carrying strap were missing. The elaborately decorated side pocket remains in
        good condition however.
        The quiver contained twelve rough arrow shafts and two finished arrows. The
        unfinished shafts are between 84 and 87 cm long and made of the shoots of
        viburnum sapwood. Their bark had been removed but not yet smoothed down and all
        had notches cut into the ends.
        Both finished arrows have flint arrowheads, fixed to the shaft with birch tar
        and then bound with thread. These arrows are unique in that the shafts display
        the remains of three-part radial fletching, attached with birch tar and bound
        with thin nettle fibres. This fletching served to stabilize the arrow during
        flight. One of the arrows had an extended shaft made of cornel wood inserted
        into the top.
        The quiver also held four tips of stag antlers tied together with strips of
        bast. There was also a bent antler tip that the Iceman probably used for
        skinning the animals he had hunted.
        Besides two animal sinews, there was also a ball of tree bast string some two
        metres long. The irregular and inelastic nature of this cord makes it unlikely
        that it colud have served as a bowstring."

        From: "Ötzi, the Iceman - A full facts at a glance" Author: Angelika
        Fleckinger, Folio-Editor

        I hope that I could help you. Please don't hesitate to contact me for any
        further information.

        Kind wishes,

        Melitta Franceschini
        South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology
        www.iceman.it

        So, the back quiver is actually PRE-period and there is precendence for back
        quivers in the SCA. I hope that this puts fuel to the fire and supports back
        quiver usage.

        Sabra
      • Scott Jaqua
        Fascinating stuff. Thank you for sharing this information. Njall Scott B. Jaqua ... The most import right of all, is that of free speech. Without that, all
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 27, 2004
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          Fascinating stuff. Thank you for sharing this information.

          Njall

          Scott B. Jaqua
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----------------------------
          The most import right of all, is that of free speech. Without that, all your
          other rights will soon be taken away. So, I may disagree with what you say,
          but I will defend until death, your right to say it!
        • Carolus Eulenhorst
          Great! As the governing documents state no early cutoff we have now established the back quiver as period and, by the rules we use, documentable and
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 27, 2004
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            Great! As the governing documents state no early cutoff we have now
            established the back quiver as period and, by the rules we use,
            documentable and acceptable. Now, the question as to whether it was
            culturally appropriate for any of our personas is another matter.

            Carolus

            On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 9:43:51 -0700 <sayokom@...> writes:
            > I have been watching the debate of whether or not the back quiver is
            > period or
            > not, and if there was even ANY precedence for them.
            >
            > I started to research this issue myself because I am rather partial
            > to the back
            > quiver. I came across the Ötzi, the Iceman and found out that he
            > had a quiver
            > with some arrows in it. But all the information that I read did not
            > tell me
            > whether or not it was a back or hip quiver.
            >
            > So, I emailed the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Italy with
            > the question
            > of whether or not the Iceman carried a back or hip quiver, and the
            > following is
            > the answer I got back from them:
            >
            > referring to your question about the Iceman we can tell that he
            > surely had a
            > back quiver.
            > Below some information about it:
            > "The quiver is made of a rectangular, elongated hide bag that tapers
            > slightly
            > towards the bottom. The piece of hide was held together lengthways
            > and
            > supported by a 9.-cm-long hazel wood rod. This supporting strut had
            > already
            > been broken into three sections during Ötzi's lifetime. The lid and
            > the
            > carrying strap were missing. The elaborately decorated side pocket
            > remains in
            > good condition however.
            > The quiver contained twelve rough arrow shafts and two finished
            > arrows. The
            > unfinished shafts are between 84 and 87 cm long and made of the
            > shoots of
            > viburnum sapwood. Their bark had been removed but not yet smoothed
            > down and all
            > had notches cut into the ends.
            > Both finished arrows have flint arrowheads, fixed to the shaft with
            > birch tar
            > and then bound with thread. These arrows are unique in that the
            > shafts display
            > the remains of three-part radial fletching, attached with birch tar
            > and bound
            > with thin nettle fibres. This fletching served to stabilize the
            > arrow during
            > flight. One of the arrows had an extended shaft made of cornel wood
            > inserted
            > into the top.
            > The quiver also held four tips of stag antlers tied together with
            > strips of
            > bast. There was also a bent antler tip that the Iceman probably used
            > for
            > skinning the animals he had hunted.
            > Besides two animal sinews, there was also a ball of tree bast string
            > some two
            > metres long. The irregular and inelastic nature of this cord makes
            > it unlikely
            > that it colud have served as a bowstring."
            >
            > From: "Ötzi, the Iceman - A full facts at a glance" Author: Angelika
            >
            > Fleckinger, Folio-Editor
            >
            > I hope that I could help you. Please don't hesitate to contact me
            > for any
            > further information.
            >
            > Kind wishes,
            >
            > Melitta Franceschini
            > South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology
            > www.iceman.it
            >
            > So, the back quiver is actually PRE-period and there is precendence
            > for back
            > quivers in the SCA. I hope that this puts fuel to the fire and
            > supports back
            > quiver usage.
            >
            > Sabra
            >
            >
            >
            > ---8<---------------------------------------------
            > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
            > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
            >
            > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this
            > list]
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >

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          • Walter Davis
            On page 106 of Robert Hardy s book, Longbow, is a picture of 4 Norman archers from the Bayeaux Tapestry. While three of the archers are clearly using hip
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 27, 2004
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              On page 106 of Robert Hardy's book, Longbow, is a picture of 4 Norman archers from the Bayeaux Tapestry. While three of the archers are clearly using hip quivers one appears to be using a back quiver. Check it out!Oudoceus--- On Tue 01/27, Carolus Eulenhorst < eulenhorst@... > wrote:From: Carolus Eulenhorst [mailto: eulenhorst@...]To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:59:36 -0800Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Back quiver VS. Hip quiver- further studyGreat! As the governing documents state no early cutoff we have nowestablished the back quiver as period and, by the rules we use,documentable and acceptable. Now, the question as to whether it wasculturally appropriate for any of our personas is another matter.CarolusOn Tue, 27 Jan 2004 9:43:51 -0700 writes:> I have been watching the debate of whether or not the back quiver is > period or > not, and if there was even ANY precedence for them.> > I started to research this issue myself because I am rather partial > to the back > quiver. I came across the �tzi, the Iceman and found out that he > had a quiver > with some arrows in it. But all the information that I read did not > tell me > whether or not it was a back or hip quiver.> > So, I emailed the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Italy with > the question > of whether or not the Iceman carried a back or hip quiver, and the > following is > the answer I got back from them:> > referring to your question about the Iceman we can tell that he > surely had a > back quiver.> Below some information about it:> "The quiver is made of a rectangular, elongated hide bag that tapers > slightly > towards the bottom. The piece of hide was held together lengthways > and > supported by a 9.-cm-long hazel wood rod. This supporting strut had > already > been broken into three sections during �tzi's lifetime. The lid and > the > carrying strap were missing. The elaborately decorated side pocket > remains in > good condition however.> The quiver contained twelve rough arrow shafts and two finished > arrows. The > unfinished shafts are between 84 and 87 cm long and made of the > shoots of > viburnum sapwood. Their bark had been removed but not yet smoothed > down and all > had notches cut into the ends.> Both finished arrows have flint arrowheads, fixed to the shaft with > birch tar > and then bound with thread. These arrows are unique in that the > shafts display > the remains of three-part radial fletching, attached with birch tar > and bound > with thin nettle fibres. This fletching served to stabilize the > arrow during > flight. One of the arrows had an extended shaft made of cornel wood > inserted > into the top.> The quiver also held four tips of stag antlers tied together with > strips of > bast. There was also a bent antler tip that the Iceman probably used > for > skinning the animals he had hunted.> Besides two animal sinews, there was also a ball of tree bast string > some two > metres long. The irregular and inelastic nature of this cord makes > it unlikely > that it colud have served as a bowstring."> > From: "�tzi, the Iceman - A full facts at a glance" Author: Angelika > > Fleckinger, Folio-Editor> > I hope that I could help you. Please don't hesitate to contact me > for any > further information.> > Kind wishes,> > Melitta Franceschini> South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology> www.iceman.it> > So, the back quiver is actually PRE-period and there is precendence > for back > quivers in the SCA. I hope that this puts fuel to the fire and > supports back > quiver usage. > > Sabra> > > > ---8<---------------------------------------------> Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart> Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/> > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this > list]
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links> > To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:> SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ________________________________________________________________The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!---8<---------------------------------------------Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval MartGet Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/%5bEmail to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo! Groups LinksTo visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Archery/To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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            • John Edgerton
              I have reread the information from Melitta Franceschini several times. But, other than the statement that .... he surely had a back quiver. There is no
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 27, 2004
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                I have reread the information from Melitta Franceschini several times.
                But, other than the statement that " .... he surely had a back quiver."
                There is no information in the description to indicate that it was a
                back quiver. And the information that the strap for the quiver was
                missing would make it hard to determine how it was worn since the method
                of suspension was not known. Also a side pocket would be hard to get to
                on a back quiver. That does not mean it could not have one, just that it
                be arkward to get to with out removing the quiver.

                Jon
                (who uses a back quiver for target and a mid 1400's style bag quiver for
                combat





                sayokom@... wrote:

                >I have been watching the debate of whether or not the back quiver is period or
                >not, and if there was even ANY precedence for them.
                >
                >I started to research this issue myself because I am rather partial to the back
                >quiver. I came across the Ötzi, the Iceman and found out that he had a quiver
                >with some arrows in it. But all the information that I read did not tell me
                >whether or not it was a back or hip quiver.
                >
                >So, I emailed the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Italy with the question
                >of whether or not the Iceman carried a back or hip quiver, and the following is
                >the answer I got back from them:
                >
                >referring to your question about the Iceman we can tell that he surely had a
                >back quiver.
                >Below some information about it:
                >"The quiver is made of a rectangular, elongated hide bag that tapers slightly
                >towards the bottom. The piece of hide was held together lengthways and
                >supported by a 9.-cm-long hazel wood rod. This supporting strut had already
                >been broken into three sections during Ötzi's lifetime. The lid and the
                >carrying strap were missing. The elaborately decorated side pocket remains in
                >good condition however.
                >The quiver contained twelve rough arrow shafts and two finished arrows. The
                >unfinished shafts are between 84 and 87 cm long and made of the shoots of
                >viburnum sapwood. Their bark had been removed but not yet smoothed down and all
                >had notches cut into the ends.
                >Both finished arrows have flint arrowheads, fixed to the shaft with birch tar
                >and then bound with thread. These arrows are unique in that the shafts display
                >the remains of three-part radial fletching, attached with birch tar and bound
                >with thin nettle fibres. This fletching served to stabilize the arrow during
                >flight. One of the arrows had an extended shaft made of cornel wood inserted
                >into the top.
                >The quiver also held four tips of stag antlers tied together with strips of
                >bast. There was also a bent antler tip that the Iceman probably used for
                >skinning the animals he had hunted.
                >Besides two animal sinews, there was also a ball of tree bast string some two
                >metres long. The irregular and inelastic nature of this cord makes it unlikely
                >that it colud have served as a bowstring."
                >
                >From: "Ötzi, the Iceman - A full facts at a glance" Author: Angelika
                >Fleckinger, Folio-Editor
                >
                >I hope that I could help you. Please don't hesitate to contact me for any
                >further information.
                >
                >Kind wishes,
                >
                >Melitta Franceschini
                >South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology
                >www.iceman.it
                >
                >So, the back quiver is actually PRE-period and there is precendence for back
                >quivers in the SCA. I hope that this puts fuel to the fire and supports back
                >quiver usage.
                >
                >Sabra
                >
                >
              • Herrin Kathalyn Nimet
                I would tend to agree with the ARCHEOLOGISTS, who are well-educated and have the item in question in hand and fully examined it as opposed to armchair
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 27, 2004
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                  I would tend to agree with the ARCHEOLOGISTS, who are well-educated
                  and have the item in question in hand and fully examined it as opposed
                  to armchair historians, who have no education in said topic.

                  Huzzah to Sabra for her excellent "discovery".
                • RJ Bachner
                  ... Now traditional archery I believ it was did a 3 part story on his gear examining it closely and recreating it to exact dimensions and if I am not mistaken,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 28, 2004
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                    On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 9:43:51 -0700, you, with reckless abandon, wrote:

                    >I have been watching the debate of whether or not the back quiver is period or
                    >not, and if there was even ANY precedence for them.
                    >
                    >I started to research this issue myself because I am rather partial to the back
                    >quiver. I came across the Ötzi, the Iceman and found out that he had a quiver
                    >with some arrows in it. But all the information that I read did not tell me
                    >whether or not it was a back or hip quiver.
                    >
                    >So, I emailed the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Italy with the question
                    >of whether or not the Iceman carried a back or hip quiver, and the following is
                    >the answer I got back from them:
                    >
                    >referring to your question about the Iceman we can tell that he surely had a
                    >back quiver.
                    >Below some information about it:
                    >"The quiver is made of a rectangular, elongated hide bag that tapers slightly
                    >towards the bottom. The piece of hide was held together lengthways and
                    >supported by a 9.-cm-long hazel wood rod. This supporting strut had already
                    >been broken into three sections during Ötzi's lifetime. The lid and the
                    >carrying strap were missing. The elaborately decorated side pocket remains in
                    >good condition however.
                    >The quiver contained twelve rough arrow shafts and two finished arrows. The
                    >unfinished shafts are between 84 and 87 cm long and made of the shoots of
                    >viburnum sapwood. Their bark had been removed but not yet smoothed down and all
                    >had notches cut into the ends.
                    >Both finished arrows have flint arrowheads, fixed to the shaft with birch tar
                    >and then bound with thread. These arrows are unique in that the shafts display
                    >the remains of three-part radial fletching, attached with birch tar and bound
                    >with thin nettle fibres. This fletching served to stabilize the arrow during
                    >flight. One of the arrows had an extended shaft made of cornel wood inserted
                    >into the top.
                    >The quiver also held four tips of stag antlers tied together with strips of
                    >bast. There was also a bent antler tip that the Iceman probably used for
                    >skinning the animals he had hunted.
                    >Besides two animal sinews, there was also a ball of tree bast string some two
                    >metres long. The irregular and inelastic nature of this cord makes it unlikely
                    >that it colud have served as a bowstring."
                    >
                    >From: "Ötzi, the Iceman - A full facts at a glance" Author: Angelika
                    >Fleckinger, Folio-Editor

                    Now traditional archery I believ it was did a 3 part story on his gear examining it closely and
                    recreating it to exact dimensions and if I am not mistaken, as I have lent the issues out to a bud
                    of mine, the quiver he carried was a side quiver, much like what many native american indians used.
                    not a hip quiver or a back model but a long over the shoulder side quiver.

                    Jay massey also reccomends this same style in his boyers bible article on quivers. personally I like
                    this one better. period or not.

                    Ragi
                  • Carolus Eulenhorst
                    The jury is still out on that. Just as fighters would hang their sword belt over their shoulder and saw that eventually evolve into the baldric, the tapestry
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 28, 2004
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                      The jury is still out on that. Just as fighters would hang their sword
                      belt over their shoulder and saw that eventually evolve into the baldric,
                      the tapestry evidence does not definitively show the use of a designed
                      back quiver and not a hip quiver on a belt slung over the shoulder
                      rather than buckled in its designed position. To date we have no
                      conclusive evidence of a quiver designed for use on the back. Keep up
                      the research guys and gals, we're way further ahead than we were a few
                      years ago.

                      In service to the dream
                      Carolus von Eulenhorst
                      eulenhorst@...
                      Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                      Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com)

                      On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 16:29:57 -0500 (EST) "Walter Davis" <wdjr@...>
                      writes:
                      > On page 106 of Robert Hardy's book, Longbow, is a picture of 4
                      > Norman archers from the Bayeaux Tapestry. While three of the
                      > archers are clearly using hip quivers one appears to be using a back
                      > quiver. Check it out!Oudoceus---

                      ________________________________________________________________
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                    • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                      Greetings, Back quivers were known of during medieval Europesn times, unfortunately there is little evidence that they were used by medieval European archers.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 28, 2004
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                        Greetings,

                        Back quivers were known of during medieval Europesn times,
                        unfortunately there is little evidence that they were used by medieval
                        European archers. I use one, I will continue to use one.

                        The Bayeau Tapestry was created by Normans, I believe. The Normans
                        were of Norse heritage. The typical Norse quiver was set up similarly to
                        an American Plains Indian quiver. It was worn on a baldric that was
                        atached to the top opening of the quiver an the other side was attached
                        to the bottom. It rested in a somewhat horizontal diagonal fashon
                        accross the archers body and while traveling, it could be adjusted to
                        sit over the shoulder in a similar fashion to a back quiver. It is a big
                        step to jump from there to calling it a back quiver. That is what I see
                        when I look at the tapestry .

                        There are depictions of the Goddess Diana that were created in the
                        16th century where she is wearing a back quiver and there is an artifact
                        illustration showing what appears to be a back quiver, but it could just
                        as easily be the Norse style quiver described above. I was doing some
                        research on this very topic a few years ago and not having any luck, a
                        friend that is a Laurel here in the East Kingdom sent me two
                        llustrations that are as described. As much as I would like it to be
                        true that there is documentation that backquivers were used by medieval
                        European archers, there just isn't the historical
                        documentation..................yet.

                        Please keep looking.

                        -Geoffrei



                        http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                      • Mac Con mac Conaill
                        This is from a friend of mine so I take no credit in finding this but if it is true does it prove back quivers are period? A painting of Elizabeth 1 as Diana
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 29, 2004
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                          This is from a friend of mine so I take no credit in finding this but if it is true does it prove back quivers are period?

                          A painting of Elizabeth 1 as Diana by Cornelus Vroom(1566-1640).
                          The painting clear shows a back quiver worn by Elizabeth, this
                          painting hang in the Hatfeild House. Can be found in "The Grey Goose
                          Wing" this book can be found at your local library, page 143.
                          Page 41 of the same book shows a bowmen of Ramesses 3rd with an
                          elaborately decorated quiver, which is worn on the back. this was
                          taken from a coloured relief at Medinet Habu, xxth dynasty(1192-
                          1160b.c.). and there are others I would just have to find them.


                          Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                          The jury is still out on that. Just as fighters would hang their sword
                          belt over their shoulder and saw that eventually evolve into the baldric,
                          the tapestry evidence does not definitively show the use of a designed
                          back quiver and not a hip quiver on a belt slung over the shoulder
                          rather than buckled in its designed position. To date we have no
                          conclusive evidence of a quiver designed for use on the back. Keep up
                          the research guys and gals, we're way further ahead than we were a few
                          years ago.

                          In service to the dream
                          Carolus von Eulenhorst
                          eulenhorst@...
                          Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                          Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com)

                          On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 16:29:57 -0500 (EST) "Walter Davis"
                          writes:
                          > On page 106 of Robert Hardy's book, Longbow, is a picture of 4
                          > Norman archers from the Bayeaux Tapestry. While three of the
                          > archers are clearly using hip quivers one appears to be using a back
                          > quiver. Check it out!Oudoceus---

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                          Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald

                          As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

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                        • Eadric Anstapa
                          ... but if it is true does it prove back quivers are period? ... I put portrtait of Elzabeth by Vroom and some other pics at http://www.scabrewer.com/quiver/ I
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 29, 2004
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                            Mac Con mac Conaill <mac_con_mac_conaill@...> said:

                            > This is from a friend of mine so I take no credit in finding this
                            but if it is true does it prove back quivers are period?
                            >
                            > A painting of Elizabeth 1 as Diana by Cornelus Vroom(1566-1640).
                            > The painting clear shows a back quiver worn by Elizabeth, this
                            > painting hang in the Hatfeild House. Can be found in "The Grey Goose
                            > Wing" this book can be found at your local library, page 143.
                            > Page 41 of the same book shows a bowmen of Ramesses 3rd with an
                            > elaborately decorated quiver, which is worn on the back. this was
                            > taken from a coloured relief at Medinet Habu, xxth dynasty(1192-
                            > 1160b.c.). and there are others I would just have to find them.
                            >

                            I put portrtait of Elzabeth by Vroom and some other pics at

                            http://www.scabrewer.com/quiver/

                            I have some other pictures from books that I need to scan in and add
                            to the page.

                            While I'll agree that shoulder quivers do not seem to have been as
                            widely used as other quivers in most European cultures in period, I
                            think it is clear that those cultures knew about back quivers. I
                            dont think it is unreasonable to assume that some of them would have
                            at least tried back quivers.

                            Regards,

                            --
                            HL Eadric Anstapa
                            Ansteorra
                            eadric@...
                          • Carolus Eulenhorst
                            I fully concur that the concept of a back quiver is quite likely and I find no problem with it in the game we play. However, in the interest of the true study
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 29, 2004
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                              I fully concur that the concept of a back quiver is quite likely and I
                              find no problem with it in the game we play. However, in the interest of
                              the true study of history, we need to prove via documentary sources the
                              existence and use of the back quiver before saying that it is a truly
                              "period" and authentic construct. To do otherwise is speculative
                              history.

                              One of the strengths of our organization is its ability to use
                              speculative history in our game. It is also one of its liabilities in
                              the academic world. Knowing the difference is important in establishing
                              credibility. When we say "they must have had..." because we see the
                              required materials and technologies in place but we cannot show the
                              documentation we are doing ourselves a disservice. I have had professors
                              tell me that they had people speak up in their classes and tell them that
                              such and such must have been done because that's the way its done in the
                              SCA when the written record clearly shows otherwise. This only hurts our
                              standing.

                              I say these things not to criticize any here as I know you to be good and
                              knowledgeable people but to point out why we need to set a higher
                              standard than in the past. A standard I see often used as a mark by
                              those researching archery.

                              In service to the dream
                              Carolus von Eulenhorst
                              eulenhorst@...
                              Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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                              P.S Thanks for the page of illustrations. This fully supports the point
                              that the back quiver should be considered valid and suitable for SCA use.
                              It does not, however, demonstrate cultural validity and the actual use
                              of the back quiver by those we recreate.
                              CvE

                              On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:43:57 -0000 "Eadric Anstapa"
                              <smills@...> writes:
                              > Mac Con mac Conaill <mac_con_mac_conaill@...> said:
                              >
                              > > This is from a friend of mine so I take no credit in finding this
                              > but if it is true does it prove back quivers are period?
                              > >
                              > > A painting of Elizabeth 1 as Diana by Cornelus Vroom(1566-1640).
                              > > The painting clear shows a back quiver worn by Elizabeth, this
                              > > painting hang in the Hatfeild House. Can be found in "The Grey
                              > Goose
                              > > Wing" this book can be found at your local library, page 143.
                              > > Page 41 of the same book shows a bowmen of Ramesses 3rd with an
                              > > elaborately decorated quiver, which is worn on the back. this was
                              > > taken from a coloured relief at Medinet Habu, xxth dynasty(1192-
                              > > 1160b.c.). and there are others I would just have to find them.
                              > >
                              >
                              > I put portrtait of Elzabeth by Vroom and some other pics at
                              >
                              > http://www.scabrewer.com/quiver/
                              >
                              > I have some other pictures from books that I need to scan in and
                              > add
                              > to the page.
                              >
                              > While I'll agree that shoulder quivers do not seem to have been as
                              > widely used as other quivers in most European cultures in period, I
                              > think it is clear that those cultures knew about back quivers. I
                              > dont think it is unreasonable to assume that some of them would
                              > have
                              > at least tried back quivers.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > --
                              > HL Eadric Anstapa
                              > Ansteorra
                              > eadric@...

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                            • Mac Con mac Conaill
                              Ya because we all know ARCHEOLOGISTS have never gotten something wrong in the pass. Herrin Kathalyn Nimet wrote:I would tend to agree with
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 30, 2004
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                                Ya because we all know ARCHEOLOGISTS have never gotten something wrong in the pass.

                                Herrin Kathalyn Nimet <naherin@...> wrote:I would tend to agree with the ARCHEOLOGISTS, who are well-educated
                                and have the item in question in hand and fully examined it as opposed
                                to armchair historians, who have no education in said topic.

                                Huzzah to Sabra for her excellent "discovery".






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                                Yours in Service;

                                Tighearn (Lord) Mac Con mac Conaill of Clan MacDonald

                                As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

                                Declaration of Arbroath, 6 April 1320.





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