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Re: [SCA-Archery] Crossbow Target Shooting illustration

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  • HL Agnarr Thorvaldsson
    Greetings Allen The scan looks great to me and thanks for the picture. I wish you had a chance to get a close look at the actual manuscript cause I would like
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 6, 2003
      Greetings Allen

      The scan looks great to me and thanks for the picture. I wish you had a chance to get a close look at the actual manuscript cause I would like to look at it myself. Anyway, I have just taken a real close look at the picture you uploaded and if you take a close look you will see part of one giant "Dart Board" target behind the crossbowman on the line (left page) and another partial giant " Dart Board" target on the right page that they are shooting at so their is two Dart Board Targets.

      Other points of interest from this picture that I noticed are as follows:

      There is two individuals behind the brick safety walls on the right page and they are most likely servants and they look to be younger in age then everyone else and they are either acting as scorers for the shoot or are runners returning the bolts between rounds. (I'm assuming they are servants because these two young men are in the same livery as several other individuals in this picture).

      Additionally, since there is a pitcher and two mugs next to the one closest behind the walls they are there for long periods of time. So one can make an educated guess and state that this archery competition is something that is not just done for an hour or so; but most likely an all day shooting event. I'm going to make a wild guess on the status of the other men on the left page and state that they are mostly all from the upper class if not nobility due to the style and cut of their clothes. (the one wincing a xbow is obviously a servant or page since he is not in a houpenlaude (?spelling?.)

      All the crossbows shown have wooden prods and they are all probably composite prods in manufacture. If you will look closely at all the prods shown you will see that they have several areas that are heavily wrapped along the prods length. (A good sign that these prods are composites or backed bows). Also a close look at the side of the xbow being shot by the individual on the line wearing same livery shows what appears to be a "covering plate" in the area that a rolling nut would be located on the stock (look right above his left hand). And I also should make mention that the bolt being shot has what appears to be three fletchings not two.

      Also these xbows being shown are most likely 150 lbs. or more in pull as the one individual is using a wench to draw the crossbow string. (If the xbow was only 75 lbs. or so he would not be needing the winch.)

      As a final note if you will look at the top of the calendar on the right page you will see a centaur shooting over his backside.

      Sorry everyone about the length of this reply but I could not help myself and besides these are just my thoughts on what I see.

      I remain in service to the Kingdom and the Dream.

      HL Agnarr Thorvaldsson, CAMA
      Crossrode Keep, Ansteorra
    • Carolus Eulenhorst
      Note also the safety walls are pierced by slits. Could these be for some type of castle wall shoot? It does give the appearance of a range set up for
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 6, 2003
        Note also the "safety walls" are pierced by slits. Could these be for
        some type of "castle wall" shoot? It does give the appearance of a range
        set up for traditional end shooting first from one end to a target at the
        other and then from the other end to a target at the first.

        In service to the dream
        Carolus von Eulenhorst
        eulenhorst@...
        Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
        Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com)

        On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 05:03:27 -0500 "HL Agnarr Thorvaldsson"
        <agnarr@...> writes:
        > Greetings Allen
        >
        > The scan looks great to me and thanks for the picture. I wish you
        > had a chance to get a close look at the actual manuscript cause I
        > would like to look at it myself. Anyway, I have just taken a real
        > close look at the picture you uploaded and if you take a close look
        > you will see part of one giant "Dart Board" target behind the
        > crossbowman on the line (left page) and another partial giant " Dart
        > Board" target on the right page that they are shooting at so their
        > is two Dart Board Targets.
        >
        > Other points of interest from this picture that I noticed are as
        > follows:
        >
        > There is two individuals behind the brick safety walls on the
        > right page and they are most likely servants and they look to be
        > younger in age then everyone else and they are either acting as
        > scorers for the shoot or are runners returning the bolts between
        > rounds. (I'm assuming they are servants because these two young men
        > are in the same livery as several other individuals in this
        > picture).
        >
        > Additionally, since there is a pitcher and two mugs next to the one
        > closest behind the walls they are there for long periods of time.
        > So one can make an educated guess and state that this archery
        > competition is something that is not just done for an hour or so;
        > but most likely an all day shooting event. I'm going to make a wild
        > guess on the status of the other men on the left page and state that
        > they are mostly all from the upper class if not nobility due to the
        > style and cut of their clothes. (the one wincing a xbow is obviously
        > a servant or page since he is not in a houpenlaude (?spelling?.)
        >
        > All the crossbows shown have wooden prods and they are all
        > probably composite prods in manufacture. If you will look closely
        > at all the prods shown you will see that they have several areas
        > that are heavily wrapped along the prods length. (A good sign that
        > these prods are composites or backed bows). Also a close look at
        > the side of the xbow being shot by the individual on the line
        > wearing same livery shows what appears to be a "covering plate" in
        > the area that a rolling nut would be located on the stock (look
        > right above his left hand). And I also should make mention that the
        > bolt being shot has what appears to be three fletchings not two.
        >
        > Also these xbows being shown are most likely 150 lbs. or more in
        > pull as the one individual is using a wench to draw the crossbow
        > string. (If the xbow was only 75 lbs. or so he would not be needing
        > the winch.)
        >
        > As a final note if you will look at the top of the calendar on
        > the right page you will see a centaur shooting over his backside.
        >
        > Sorry everyone about the length of this reply but I could not help
        > myself and besides these are just my thoughts on what I see.
        >
        > I remain in service to the Kingdom and the Dream.
        >
        > HL Agnarr Thorvaldsson, CAMA
        > Crossrode Keep, Ansteorra

        ________________________________________________________________
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      • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
        ... be for ... of a range ... at the ... Konnichi wa, tomodachi, I must admit that I only shoot yumi, and have no experience with these crossbow weapons of
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 6, 2003
          > Note also the "safety walls" are pierced by slits. Could these
          be for
          > some type of "castle wall" shoot? It does give the appearance
          of a range
          > set up for traditional end shooting first from one end to a target
          at the
          > other and then from the other end to a target at the first.
          >


          > > There is two individuals behind the brick safety walls


          Konnichi wa, tomodachi,
          I must admit that I only shoot yumi, and have no experience with
          these crossbow weapons of yours, (except what the mongols
          used at Hakata Bay <grin>). I agree from the illustration that the
          range looks double ended, but I doubt that they would do a
          castle wall shoot, the way we think of it...it seems to me that a
          brick wall would be hard on 150lb shot crossbow bolts...
          I could easilly be wrong, though.
          Perhaps the slits are for judges, or populace to watch through...I
          would guess they would watch from the same side the shooters
          were on (not the target side...that could lead to some trouble...)

          Just thoughts

          Date Saburou Yukiie
          Yama Kaminari Ryu
          shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
          http://www.kabutographics.com (under recunstruction)
        • Nest verch Tangwistel
          Or maybe the slots were for those two individuals to peak through to make sure no one is still shooting before going out to retrieve bolts. Nest ...
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 6, 2003
            Or maybe the slots were for those two individuals to peak through to make
            sure no one is still shooting before going out to retrieve bolts.

            Nest
            >
            > > > There is two individuals behind the brick safety walls

            > Perhaps the slits are for judges, or populace to watch through...I
            > would guess they would watch from the same side the shooters
            > were on (not the target side...that could lead to some trouble...)
            >


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          • Siegfried Sebastian Faust
            Comments upon Comments ... Somewhat common practice from what I understand, to set up a range that is double-ended , so that you can shoot at one end, walk to
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 6, 2003
              Comments upon Comments

              > Anyway, I have just taken a real close look at the picture you uploaded
              > and if you take a close look you will see part of one giant "Dart Board"
              > target behind the crossbowman on the line (left page) and another partial
              > giant " Dart Board" target on the right page that they are shooting at so
              > their is two Dart Board Targets.

              Somewhat common practice from what I understand, to set up a range that is
              'double-ended', so that you can shoot at one end, walk to retrieve, then
              shoot backwards, walk to retrieve/etc ... more shooting, less walking that way.

              > There is two individuals behind the brick safety walls on the right
              > page and they are most likely servants and they look to be younger in age
              > then everyone else and they are either acting as scorers for the shoot or
              > are runners returning the bolts between rounds. (I'm assuming they are
              > servants because these two young men are in the same livery as several
              > other individuals in this picture).

              Given that it IS a double-ended range, I would assume scorers, and/or just
              'watching'. No need for retrievers.

              > All the crossbows shown have wooden prods and they are all probably
              > composite prods in manufacture. If you will look closely at all the
              > prods shown you will see that they have several areas that are heavily
              > wrapped along the prods length. (A good sign that these prods are
              > composites or backed bows).

              Definately composites by the date of the image, and of the 'massive
              thickness' of the prods.

              > Also a close look at the side of the xbow being shot by the individual
              > on the line wearing same livery shows what appears to be a "covering
              > plate" in the area that a rolling nut would be located on the stock (look
              > right above his left hand). And I also should make mention that the bolt
              > being shot has what appears to be three fletchings not two.

              Wow, you have good eyes, I can't see that at all. Although, 3 fletch bolts
              (two sideways, one vertical) are quite period and documented.

              > Also these xbows being shown are most likely 150 lbs. or more in pull
              > as the one individual is using a wench to draw the crossbow string. (If
              > the xbow was only 75 lbs. or so he would not be needing the winch.)

              Actually, I would wager much more than 150lbs. 150lbs, to even 200lbs, you
              CAN pull yourself, especially if it's your job. The purpose for the
              composite bows and windlasses were to get 300+ pound crossbows, which,
              these probably are.


              _________________________________________________________________________
              THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust Baronial Web Minister & Archery Marshal
              Barony of Highland Foorde http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/
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