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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Bamboo

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  • badger5149@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/4/2003 11:00:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... I am curious as to how much a typical bamboo arrow might weigh, I use both american and
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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      In a message dated 8/4/2003 11:00:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
      greytaylor@... writes:

      > Are there other american hardwoods that will replicate the
      > >mechanics and physics of proper bamboo, with more availibility,
      > >and less cost...?"
      >

      I am curious as to how much a typical bamboo arrow might weigh, I use both
      american and exotic hardwoods and softwoods, at present i am favoring santos
      mahagany as they seem unbreakable but they are heavy, usually around 700 to 750
      grains when completed. I have found if I go thru the lumber carefully I can
      find specimens of walnut that are very light, they make beautiful arrows but the
      light weight pieces have no strength advantage over the softwoods. I have
      found various bamboo patches in my area but have yet to find anything suitable for
      arrow making. I am looking forward to my first batch of hardwood footed
      bamboo arrows. Badger


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kinjal of Moravia
      ... that the last 8-10 of the shaft is of hardwood, but not a removable segment as used in some tribes. Perhaps the strength and smoothness here serves some
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, badger5149@a... wrote:
        > In a message dated 8/4/2003 11:00:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
        > greytaylor@a... writes:
        >
        > > Are there other american hardwoods that will replicate the
        > > >mechanics and physics of proper bamboo, with more availibility,
        > > >and less cost...?"
        > >
        >
        > I have been examining Native American bamboo arrows and have found
        that the last 8-10" of the shaft is of hardwood, but not a removable
        segment as used in some tribes. Perhaps the strength and smoothness
        here serves some purpose in controlling breakage or flight.
        However, few of the lowland trees and shrubs would have provided
        long, straight shafts so the bonding of the two materials may have
        been from necessity. May be worth a try if you can only find
        shorter pieces of straight bamboo.

        Kinjal
      • blkknighti@aol.com
        Just wondering ...where does the bamboo grow in the US that Native Americans used? My wife is Lanape and never heard of this. It sound interesting. Richard In
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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          Just wondering ...where does the bamboo grow in the US that Native Americans
          used? My wife is Lanape and never heard of this. It sound interesting.
          Richard

          In a message dated 8/4/03 3:40:18 PM, gusarimagic@... writes:

          << > I have been examining Native American bamboo arrows and have found

          that the last 8-10" of the shaft is of hardwood, but not a removable

          segment as used in some tribes. Perhaps the strength and smoothness

          here serves some purpose in controlling breakage or flight.

          However, few of the lowland trees and shrubs would have provided

          long, straight shafts so the bonding of the two materials may have

          been from necessity. May be worth a try if you can only find

          shorter pieces of straight bamboo.


          Kinjal >>
        • jameswolfden
          ... Native Americans ... interesting. ... I am not sure whether Kinjal is referring to the same thing but I believe river cane is considered to be a bamboo and
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, blkknighti@a... wrote:
            > Just wondering ...where does the bamboo grow in the US that
            Native Americans
            > used? My wife is Lanape and never heard of this. It sound
            interesting.
            > Richard

            I am not sure whether Kinjal is referring to the same thing but I
            believe river cane is considered to be a bamboo and it is native
            to North America. It was used by Eastern Woodland nations
            according to The Bowyer's Bible. There are supposed to be two
            other species of bamboo native to North America.

            James Wolfden
          • blkknighti@aol.com
            Ok, bamboo is a grass, and the phragmite reeds that are native to the US are considered grass but I don t think that they are bamboo although I m sure that
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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              Ok, bamboo is a "grass," and the phragmite reeds that are native to the US
              are considered "grass" but I don't think that they are bamboo although I'm sure
              that the authors of the Boyars bible could have mistaken them for such. I have
              had the luxury of closely inspecting artifact Lenape arrows and they are
              constructed of phragmite reed. I also have collected the materials I would need to
              make replica arrows but haven't gotten around to it.
              I am getting ready for Pensic so I don't have time right now but I have
              collected some info on these arrows (it got buried somewhere in this house when I
              moved.)
              I just really don't think what they were referring to is actually classified
              as "bamboo". I'm not a botanist although I know that the reed Lenape and other
              local tribes used were phragmite reed. This could all be a matter of
              semantics.
              I'll try to persue this further when I get back.
              Richard
              In a message dated 8/4/03 5:33:11 PM, jameswolfden@... writes:

              << I am not sure whether Kinjal is referring to the same thing but I

              believe river cane is considered to be a bamboo and it is native

              to North America. It was used by Eastern Woodland nations

              according to The Bowyer's Bible. There are supposed to be two

              other species of bamboo native to North America.


              James Wolfden >>
            • Kinjal of Moravia
              ... Americans ... interesting. ... I had some of the same thoughts, but the people at the displays had no answeres. It looks like segmented bamboo but may be
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, blkknighti@a... wrote:
                > Just wondering ...where does the bamboo grow in the US that Native
                Americans
                > used? My wife is Lanape and never heard of this. It sound
                interesting.
                > Richard

                > Kinjal >>

                I had some of the same thoughts, but the people at the displays had
                no answeres. It looks like segmented bamboo but may be some type of
                reed. However, as arrows were still used in hunting into the 1890's
                in the west (we are still technically at war with the Washow
                tribes), and many orientals were imported in the 1850's, it may be a
                more 'modern' development. Reed arrows were certainly used by many
                tribes for centuries with segmented tips.
              • Robert Lauderdale
                ... A footed arrow makes the foreshaft heavier and as a consequence the arrow flies better. If you are ever anywhere near Columbia Missouri it will be well
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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                  At 07:37 PM 8/4/03 +0000, you wrote:

                  > > I have been examining Native American bamboo arrows and have found
                  >that the last 8-10" of the shaft is of hardwood, but not a removable
                  >segment as used in some tribes. Perhaps the strength and smoothness
                  >here serves some purpose in controlling breakage or flight.
                  >However, few of the lowland trees and shrubs would have provided
                  >long, straight shafts so the bonding of the two materials may have
                  >been from necessity. May be worth a try if you can only find
                  >shorter pieces of straight bamboo.
                  >
                  >Kinjal

                  A footed arrow makes the foreshaft heavier and as a consequence the arrow
                  flies better.

                  If you are ever anywhere near Columbia Missouri it will be well worth your
                  time to arrange a tour of the Grayson archery collection,
                  http://coas.missouri.edu/anthromuseum/grayson/grayson.html

                  Dr Grayson, now in his 90s and still sharp, has been a collector and
                  archery pioneer for over 70 years. I had the privelge a couple of months
                  ago of having him take me in and allow me to wander through the shelves and
                  actually handle the items. I spent three hours there--I could have spent a
                  week and not seen it all.

                  The collection has example of native American arrows made from cane, a
                  several thousand year old section of antler that some ancient bower had cut
                  for making a stave, African arrows with the poison still on them (careful
                  handling those!) and Japanese and Chinese and Persian and Native American
                  and on and on till it makes your head swim.

                  Chidiock
                • Talmon Parker
                  TalmonThe only one I have exaimaned had a piece of what was said to be English hedge plant. I m not sure that is the right name for it and I don t know how old
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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                    TalmonThe only one I have exaimaned had a piece of what was said to be
                    English hedge plant. I'm not sure that is the right name for it and I don't
                    know how old it was , the self nock was cut into this and was bound with
                    what looked like linen. It was owned by a chief Red Fox of the ogalla sioux.
                    Fletch was turkey feathers. point was flint bird point very small.There
                    was just the one.


                    Talmon

                    DER BARON





                    >From: Robert Lauderdale <chidiock@...>
                    >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Bamboo
                    >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:59:52 -0500
                    >
                    >At 07:37 PM 8/4/03 +0000, you wrote:
                    >
                    > > > I have been examining Native American bamboo arrows and have found
                    > >that the last 8-10" of the shaft is of hardwood, but not a removable
                    > >segment as used in some tribes. Perhaps the strength and smoothness
                    > >here serves some purpose in controlling breakage or flight.
                    > >However, few of the lowland trees and shrubs would have provided
                    > >long, straight shafts so the bonding of the two materials may have
                    > >been from necessity. May be worth a try if you can only find
                    > >shorter pieces of straight bamboo.
                    > >
                    > >Kinjal
                    >
                    >A footed arrow makes the foreshaft heavier and as a consequence the arrow
                    >flies better.
                    >
                    >If you are ever anywhere near Columbia Missouri it will be well worth your
                    >time to arrange a tour of the Grayson archery collection,
                    >http://coas.missouri.edu/anthromuseum/grayson/grayson.html
                    >
                    >Dr Grayson, now in his 90s and still sharp, has been a collector and
                    >archery pioneer for over 70 years. I had the privelge a couple of months
                    >ago of having him take me in and allow me to wander through the shelves and
                    >actually handle the items. I spent three hours there--I could have spent a
                    >week and not seen it all.
                    >
                    >The collection has example of native American arrows made from cane, a
                    >several thousand year old section of antler that some ancient bower had cut
                    >for making a stave, African arrows with the poison still on them (careful
                    >handling those!) and Japanese and Chinese and Persian and Native American
                    >and on and on till it makes your head swim.
                    >
                    >Chidiock
                    >
                    >
                    >---8<---------------------------------------------
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                  • jameswolfden
                    The phragmite reed and the river cane are two different things. The river cane is also known as Arundinaria gigantea and this is listed as a bamboo in the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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                      The phragmite reed and the river cane are two different things.
                      The river cane is also known as Arundinaria gigantea and this is
                      listed as a bamboo in the sites that I have checked.

                      For the record, the Bowyer's bible only refers to it as river cane to
                      the best of my knowledge. They do also refer to phragmite as an
                      arrow material but not in the same location. I was the one
                      claiming river cane was bamboo. (So if I am wrong about river
                      cane being a bamboo, its my fault not theirs.)

                      James



                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, blkknighti@a... wrote:
                      > Ok, bamboo is a "grass," and the phragmite reeds that are
                      native to the US
                      > are considered "grass" but I don't think that they are bamboo
                      although I'm sure
                      > that the authors of the Boyars bible could have mistaken them
                      for such. I have
                      > had the luxury of closely inspecting artifact Lenape arrows and
                      they are
                      > constructed of phragmite reed. I also have collected the
                      materials I would need to
                      > make replica arrows but haven't gotten around to it.
                      > I am getting ready for Pensic so I don't have time right now but I
                      have
                      > collected some info on these arrows (it got buried somewhere
                      in this house when I
                      > moved.)
                      > I just really don't think what they were referring to is actually
                      classified
                      > as "bamboo". I'm not a botanist although I know that the reed
                      Lenape and other
                      > local tribes used were phragmite reed. This could all be a
                      matter of
                      > semantics.
                      > I'll try to persue this further when I get back.
                      > Richard
                    • blkknighti@aol.com
                      In a message dated 8/5/03 12:32:45 AM, jameswolfden@yahoo.ca writes: Absolutely.
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 4, 2003
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                        In a message dated 8/5/03 12:32:45 AM, jameswolfden@... writes:

                        << The phragmite reed and the river cane are two different things. >>

                        Absolutely.


                        <<The river cane is also known as Arundinaria gigantea and this is

                        listed as a bamboo in the sites that I have checked. >>

                        This is true. I was mistaken when I said "I just really don't think what
                        they were referring to is actually classified as "bamboo". (snipped). This could
                        all be a

                        matter of semantics."
                        Its not a matter of semantics and James, you are not incorrect. River Reed is
                        a bamboo (the only which is native to North America). It is not what I had
                        thought it was, being phragmite, which is what the Lenapes used. It also is not
                        very common to the Lenape territory which would explain why they would be
                        using phragmite. One the other hand Seminoles or other more southern natives would
                        very likely have used bamboo. This information is actually pretty cool if you
                        think about it.
                        A shout out of thanks to my little Lenape friends.....
                        Richard


                        <<For the record, the Bowyer's bible only refers to it as river cane to

                        the best of my knowledge. They do also refer to phragmite as an

                        arrow material but not in the same location. I was the one

                        claiming river cane was bamboo. (So if I am wrong about river

                        cane being a bamboo, its my fault not theirs.)


                        James >>




                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, blkknighti@a... wrote:

                        > Ok, bamboo is a "grass," and the phragmite reeds that are

                        native to the US

                        > are considered "grass" but I don't think that they are bamboo

                        although I'm sure

                        > that the authors of the Boyars bible could have mistaken them

                        for such. I have

                        > had the luxury of closely inspecting artifact Lenape arrows and

                        they are

                        > constructed of phragmite reed. I also have collected the

                        materials I would need to

                        > make replica arrows but haven't gotten around to it.

                        > I am getting ready for Pensic so I don't have time right now but I

                        have

                        > collected some info on these arrows (it got buried somewhere

                        in this house when I

                        > moved.)

                        > I just really don't think what they were referring to is actually

                        classified as "bamboo". I'm not a botanist although I know that the reed

                        Lenape and other local tribes used were phragmite reed. This could all be a

                        matter of semantics.

                        > I'll try to persue this further when I get back.

                        > Richard

                        >>
                      • Carolus Eulenhorst
                        Native American shafts were usually cane, not bamboo per se. This could be harvested from most wetlands, even transient ones found in desert areas. The
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 5, 2003
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                          Native American shafts were usually cane, not bamboo per se. This could
                          be harvested from most wetlands, even transient ones found in desert
                          areas. The shafts were cut and dried in bundles, then straightened by
                          running them through a groove in a heated rock. Check out Ishii in Two
                          Worlds for a description of how to do this ( I think that's the book, my
                          anthro books are packed but it was one of the Ishii books I think by
                          Kroeber).

                          In service to the dream
                          Carolus von Eulenhorst
                          eulenhorst@...

                          On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:35:41 EDT blkknighti@... writes:
                          > Just wondering ...where does the bamboo grow in the US that Native
                          > Americans
                          > used? My wife is Lanape and never heard of this. It sound
                          > interesting.
                          > Richard
                          >
                          > In a message dated 8/4/03 3:40:18 PM, gusarimagic@...
                          > writes:
                          >
                          > << > I have been examining Native American bamboo arrows and have
                          > found
                          >
                          > that the last 8-10" of the shaft is of hardwood, but not a removable
                          >
                          >
                          > segment as used in some tribes. Perhaps the strength and smoothness
                          >
                          >
                          > here serves some purpose in controlling breakage or flight.
                          >
                          > However, few of the lowland trees and shrubs would have provided
                          >
                          > long, straight shafts so the bonding of the two materials may have
                          >
                          > been from necessity. May be worth a try if you can only find
                          >
                          > shorter pieces of straight bamboo.
                          >
                          >
                          > Kinjal >>

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Carolus Eulenhorst
                          Arundinaria resemble bamboo but are not. It is an import from SE Asia and is a major problem here in California as it is choking out the native vegetations.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 5, 2003
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                            Arundinaria resemble bamboo but are not. It is an import from SE Asia
                            and is a major problem here in California as it is choking out the native
                            vegetations. We are trying to eliminate it from our waterways now.
                            Unfortunately, some landscapers haven't gotten the message and are still
                            planting it in people's yards.

                            In service to the dream
                            Carolus von Eulenhorst
                            eulenhorst@...

                            On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:31:58 -0000 "jameswolfden" <jameswolfden@...>
                            writes:
                            > The phragmite reed and the river cane are two different things.
                            > The river cane is also known as Arundinaria gigantea and this is
                            > listed as a bamboo in the sites that I have checked.
                            >
                            > For the record, the Bowyer's bible only refers to it as river cane
                            > to
                            > the best of my knowledge. They do also refer to phragmite as an
                            > arrow material but not in the same location. I was the one
                            > claiming river cane was bamboo. (So if I am wrong about river
                            > cane being a bamboo, its my fault not theirs.)
                            >
                            > James

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