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Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery Targets Illegal?

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  • Robert Lauderdale
    ... The only place I ve seen this rule is at the local Renaissance Festival. Chidiock the Younger Calontir
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 11 2:50 PM
      you wrote:
      >
      >Lord Ragnar MacHardy, Grandmaster Bowman of the East
      >
      >Onora inghen mic Tomais <ladyodett@...> wrote:
      >I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and barbarians
      >and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they might
      >not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human likeness'
      >are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss informed?
      >

      The only place I've seen this rule is at the local Renaissance Festival.

      Chidiock the Younger
      Calontir
    • Bob Upson
      ... Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman aren t always above saying something is illegal when it is. = YIS, Macsen
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 11 3:03 PM
        On 11 Jul 2003 at 7:49, Greg Christensen wrote:

        > There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which) where they
        > are illegal. They did this to discourage training of posible killers with
        > guns. Call your local police and ask them if you are not sure.

        Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman
        aren't always above saying something is "illegal" when it is. =>

        YIS,
        Macsen
      • hanhebin
        ... Let s bring this discussion to reality. They don t prosecute many laws that are presently on the books and I doubt that anything would come of shooting
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 11 9:54 PM
          >> There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which)
          >> where they are illegal. They did this to discourage training of
          >> posible killers with guns. Call your local police and ask them if
          >> you are not sure.

          > Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman
          > aren't always above saying something is "illegal" when it is. =>

          Let's bring this discussion to reality. They don't prosecute many
          laws that are presently on the books and I doubt that anything would
          come of shooting any kind of paper / cardboard target you wish.
          There is simply too much case law on the books that no DA would waste
          the resources because they know they would lose on appeal.

          Michael
        • Erasmus Urswyc
          I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them at the range if you know
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 11 11:05 PM
            I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them at the range if you know the people there. I don't think anyone is going to care if you use them or not.

            hanhebin <hamberg@...> wrote:>> There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which)
            >> where they are illegal. They did this to discourage training of
            >> posible killers with guns. Call your local police and ask them if
            >> you are not sure.

            > Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman
            > aren't always above saying something is "illegal" when it is. =>

            Let's bring this discussion to reality. They don't prosecute many
            laws that are presently on the books and I doubt that anything would
            come of shooting any kind of paper / cardboard target you wish.
            There is simply too much case law on the books that no DA would waste
            the resources because they know they would lose on appeal.

            Michael




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          • James C. Wolf
            The archery range we have indoor/winter practice at won t let us use man shaped targets for insurance reasons, outdoors in the park/summer practice they re ok
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 12 2:42 PM
              The archery range we have indoor/winter practice at won't let us use man
              shaped targets for insurance reasons, outdoors in the park/summer
              practice they're ok tho.
              Felix G., Boga Fyrd

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            • Bob Upson
              ... Again, this is a local issue. It s certainly not an issue where I live. There are target ranges that don t allow shooting silhouettes* but it isn t
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 13 6:19 AM
                On 11 Jul 2003 at 23:05, Erasmus Urswyc wrote:

                > I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know
                > its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy

                Again, this is a local issue. It's certainly not an issue where I
                live. There are target ranges that don't allow shooting silhouettes*
                but it isn't illegal per se.

                *(More for PR reasons than anything else, I suspect.)

                YIS,
                Macsen
              • hanhebin
                ... Agreed! Back to the original point. Can you imagine the trial of several archers getting ticketed for shooting a cardboard cutout of a mounted knight as I
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 13 9:10 AM
                  > *(More for PR reasons than anything else, I suspect.)

                  Agreed!

                  Back to the original point. Can you imagine the trial of several
                  archers getting ticketed for shooting a cardboard cutout of a mounted
                  knight as I still remember the media attention that juror got a few
                  years back because she insisted on wearing a Star Trek uniform. The
                  media would have a field day with this one as the case would
                  definitely draw national attention. I can't imagine a single juror
                  voting guilty or single person in the courtroom having a straight
                  face.

                  Then again, it might just be worth a $50 fine because you would
                  probably get on the "Tonight Show" or "Larry King Live." Definitely
                  would get your 15 minutes of fame.

                  Michael
                • Fearghus Mac Lochloinn
                  ... its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them at the range if you know the people there. I don t think anyone is going to care if
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 13 3:41 PM
                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Erasmus Urswyc
                    <erasmus_urswyc@y...> wrote:
                    > I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know
                    its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them
                    at the range if you know the people there. I don't think anyone is
                    going to care if you use them or not.

                    You must not live in the finr Peoples Republik of Kaliphornya, when I
                    go shooting a hand gun or rifle or shotgun I can pretty much put up
                    any target I darn well please. Just so long as it is not to
                    distracing to the other shooters :)

                    YIS and in Good Humor Fearghus
                  • roguenad2000
                    ... Must be your local festival. Most of the Ones I have been doing (Corona, Econdido, Las Vegas) the Folks from the archers Of Ravenwood seem to almost always
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 14 7:43 AM
                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Robert Lauderdale
                      <chidiock@a...> wrote:

                      > The only place I've seen this rule is at the local
                      > Renaissance Festival.

                      Must be your local festival. Most of the Ones I have been doing
                      (Corona, Econdido, Las Vegas) the Folks from the archers Of
                      Ravenwood seem to almost always have a target or two that look like
                      people.

                      Nad
                    • jameswolfden
                      If you are still concerned, you could try to do what I did for our local barony championship shoot. I made up some dummies out of burlap (stuffed with poly).
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 14 8:41 AM
                        If you are still concerned, you could try to do what I did for our
                        local barony championship shoot.

                        I made up some dummies out of burlap (stuffed with poly). For
                        the heads, I started with 1/2 a pool noodle and then wrapped it
                        in strips of a cut-up blue camping foam to get it to look more like
                        a head. However, in this case the organizer specifically
                        requested that she wanted Orcs or some other monster. We
                        added big pointy ears and finished the head with green crepe
                        paper mache. It's still human shaped but, for those that would
                        feel wrong shooting at a human being or, more importantly, for
                        those watching who might feel it is wrong, the fact it is monster
                        takes the edge off. I understand for many in the SCA, you will get
                        archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                        than a knight bearing down on them.

                        For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                        reference to an evil creature called orcneas.

                        The following tip to those wishing to reconstruct. If you buy burlap
                        in the gardening or landscaping department at Home Depot, it
                        will be a lot cheaper than buying burlap at a fabric store. If you
                        don't have enough plastic bags at home, pick up the large roll of
                        poly while you are there.

                        James Wolfden
                      • Bob Upson
                        ... Oooo! A D&D fantasy event... *gak* = ... As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics as I ve ever heard... Not to pick on you
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 14 9:24 AM
                          On 14 Jul 2003 at 15:41, jameswolfden wrote:

                          > a head. However, in this case the organizer specifically
                          > requested that she wanted Orcs or some other monster. We

                          Oooo! A D&D fantasy event... *gak* =>

                          > added big pointy ears and finished the head with green crepe
                          > paper mache. It's still human shaped but, for those that would
                          > feel wrong shooting at a human being or, more importantly, for
                          > those watching who might feel it is wrong, the fact it is monster
                          > takes the edge off. I understand for many in the SCA, you will get

                          As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics as I've
                          ever heard... Not to pick on you personally, but I think that people
                          who feel so strongly about shooting at a "human" target should just
                          forego shooting rather than forcing event organizers to bend to their
                          silly hang-ups...

                          We're allegedly doing medieval re-creation & recreation to *some*
                          degree in the SCA and that doesn't mean shooting at "orcs" anymore
                          than it means shooting at mass printed FITA targets.

                          > archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                          > than a knight bearing down on them.

                          Yup. These are people who need to find something else to do.

                          > For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                          > reference to an evil creature called orcneas.

                          Erm. So? Tolkien and Gary Gygax both drew heavily on mythology when
                          creating their epic works of fiction but that doesn't make those
                          myths any less fantastic.

                          YIS,
                          Macsen
                        • Talmon Parker
                          I,m sure that there wern t very many archers in the mid ages who were against shooting at men liknesses {targets or real} if that was what was called for at
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 14 9:42 AM
                            I,m sure that there wern't very many archers in the mid ages who were
                            against shooting at men liknesses {targets or real} if that was what was
                            called for at the time.
                            For goodness sake, you aren't killing anything here, Loosen up and enjoy
                            life. It's getting shorter all
                            the time.


                            Baron Talmon
                            Lousy archer who shoots
                            targets

                            DER BARON





                            >From: "Bob Upson" <wyvern@...>
                            >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Archery Targets Illegal?
                            >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:24:09 -0400
                            >
                            >On 14 Jul 2003 at 15:41, jameswolfden wrote:
                            >
                            > > a head. However, in this case the organizer specifically
                            > > requested that she wanted Orcs or some other monster. We
                            >
                            >Oooo! A D&D fantasy event... *gak* =>
                            >
                            > > added big pointy ears and finished the head with green crepe
                            > > paper mache. It's still human shaped but, for those that would
                            > > feel wrong shooting at a human being or, more importantly, for
                            > > those watching who might feel it is wrong, the fact it is monster
                            > > takes the edge off. I understand for many in the SCA, you will get
                            >
                            >As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics as I've
                            >ever heard... Not to pick on you personally, but I think that people
                            >who feel so strongly about shooting at a "human" target should just
                            >forego shooting rather than forcing event organizers to bend to their
                            >silly hang-ups...
                            >
                            >We're allegedly doing medieval re-creation & recreation to *some*
                            >degree in the SCA and that doesn't mean shooting at "orcs" anymore
                            >than it means shooting at mass printed FITA targets.
                            >
                            > > archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                            > > than a knight bearing down on them.
                            >
                            >Yup. These are people who need to find something else to do.
                            >
                            > > For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                            > > reference to an evil creature called orcneas.
                            >
                            >Erm. So? Tolkien and Gary Gygax both drew heavily on mythology when
                            >creating their epic works of fiction but that doesn't make those
                            >myths any less fantastic.
                            >
                            >YIS,
                            >Macsen
                            >
                            >
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                          • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                            Let s see,people get dressed in armor and beat the crap out of each other one-on-one or in melee with heavy sticks or poles meant to represent swords,
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 14 10:14 AM
                              Let's see,people get dressed in armor and beat the crap out of each
                              other one-on-one or in melee with heavy sticks or poles meant to
                              represent swords, polearms, maces and axes. They get in their fanciest
                              frilliest puffy sleeved shirts and doublets and try to skewer each other
                              with rapiers and daggers, or they go out into the field dressed in armor
                              (lght or heavy) and shoot actual projectiles from a bow at armored
                              fighters .....and yet...there seems to be a problem in some people's
                              eyes with the notion that archers are shooting at inanimate 2
                              dimensional or even 3 dimensional targets made to represent a human. The
                              lunatics are running the asylum!
                              My business partner and best friend was a pistol instructor for
                              Nassau County Police(NY) and also was a peace officer. For a short time
                              I served with him on his crew. We ONLY used human shaped silhouette
                              targets for qualifying at the range. We also had human representation
                              targets that had features (yes It did look like John Dillenger).
                              About 8 years ago I was the range officer at a shooting range here
                              on Long Island. We sold human silhouette targets all of the time and
                              they were used quite regularly. The owner of the range facility was a
                              retired Suffolk County Lt. of Detectives.
                              When a person purchases a pistol for protection in their home, what
                              exactly do you think that they might be shooting at should the situation
                              ever arise? I would want to make sure that the home-owner, gun-owner was
                              very proficient in using that weapon and hitting what and where they
                              were aiming at.
                              If this concept is apalling to you...well welcome to the REAL
                              world. People can be nasty, frightened, violent, evil, sad as well as
                              happy, caring, loving and honorable. Sticking your head in the sand and
                              pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away. The middle ages was a
                              brutal and violent time. Shooting at people with a bow and arrow was one
                              of the more benevolent ways that they injured each other .
                              I know of no law HERE that prohibits shooting at a human shaped
                              silhouette target or one that is made to look like a "generic" human.
                              Now...if you are shooting at a target that is made to represent an
                              elected official, especially the president, then you could be in some
                              trouble.
                              I'm not sure about California, I guess the only human shaped
                              targets you can shoot at there are other travellers on the freeway. :P
                              -Geoffrei


                              http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                            • jameswolfden
                              ... as I ve ... people ... just ... their ... *some* ... anymore ... No problem. It was an enjoyable shoot but I understand where you are coming from. It would
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 14 10:26 AM
                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Upson"
                                <wyvern@m...> wrote:
                                > On 14 Jul 2003 at 15:41, jameswolfden wrote:
                                >

                                > As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics
                                as I've
                                > ever heard... Not to pick on you personally, but I think that
                                people
                                > who feel so strongly about shooting at a "human" target should
                                just
                                > forego shooting rather than forcing event organizers to bend to
                                their
                                > silly hang-ups...
                                >
                                > We're allegedly doing medieval re-creation & recreation to
                                *some*
                                > degree in the SCA and that doesn't mean shooting at "orcs"
                                anymore
                                > than it means shooting at mass printed FITA targets.

                                No problem. It was an enjoyable shoot but I understand where
                                you are coming from. It would have been actually easier to
                                change the head to a simple barrel helm. (Don't have to try to
                                make a nose and ears. ) But, yes, in this case, the shoot
                                organizer was wanting to do something based on LOTR. The
                                next time they will be used, they will be modified to be viking
                                raiders. The design allowed for modification.

                                > > archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                                > > than a knight bearing down on them.
                                >
                                > Yup. These are people who need to find something else to do.

                                The double standard just amuses me.

                                > > For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                                > > reference to an evil creature called orcneas.
                                >
                                > Erm. So? Tolkien and Gary Gygax both drew heavily on
                                mythology when
                                > creating their epic works of fiction but that doesn't make those
                                > myths any less fantastic.

                                So? So nothing! That's the only defense I had. If you are not
                                going to buy it the first time, restating it isn't going to change your
                                mind. If I could proved that in period, they shoot at mythological
                                targets, then I would have something. But I can't and I don't.

                                IMHO, I think some myths are not always based on the fantastic.
                                In some cases, it is the demonization of your enemy. Changing
                                them from human beings defending their land to savage
                                snarling soulless beasts - more wild than civilized.

                                James
                              • hanhebin
                                ... Don t really think so here as I have yet to hear of a single person cited for shooting a human-like target nor can I find any referencing citing such a law
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 14 3:17 PM
                                  > The lunatics are running the asylum!

                                  Don't really think so here as I have yet to hear of a single person
                                  cited for shooting a human-like target nor can I find any referencing
                                  citing such a law or ordinance (LEXUS/NEXUS). Me thinkest this is
                                  nothing more than urban legend.

                                  Michael
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