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Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery Targets Illegal?

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  • Steve Mason
    I am unaware of any such rules. Heck we have advancing barbarians all the time. I say go for it. Lord Ragnar MacHardy, Grandmaster Bowman of the East Onora
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 10, 2003
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      I am unaware of any such rules. Heck we have advancing barbarians all the time. I say go for it.


      Lord Ragnar MacHardy, Grandmaster Bowman of the East

      Onora inghen mic Tomais <ladyodett@...> wrote:
      I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and barbarians
      and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they might
      not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human likeness'
      are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss informed?



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    • Matt Hemmer
      Onora, As a former peace officer (Colorado) and law enforcement agent (Fed) I can reliably tell you that if it is illegal; it s either only in your state, or
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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        Onora,

        As a former peace officer (Colorado) and law enforcement agent (Fed)
        I can reliably tell you that if it is illegal; it's either only in your
        state, or your municipality, as I've trained for years shooting human
        silouettes as a cop, agent, and soldier. Further, we regularly use human
        silouettes for archer duels in Denver, Co. and can even buy them at various
        cop shops" (police/security supply stores). Check your local codes (ask a
        cop, he/she should know) but be assured that there is no Federal law against
        it (it would fall under the baliwick of the ATF). Hope this helps.....

        YIS,
        Fionn

        -------Original Message-------

        From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, July 10, 2003 06:53:37 PM
        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery Targets Illegal?

        I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and barbarians
        and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they might
        not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human likeness'
        are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss informed?



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      • Onora inghen mic Tomais
        LOL, thank you.. I am a canuck..( Alberta to be precise ) and well.. our government is a little more anal about the gun/weapon issues. Thank you though, I
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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          LOL, thank you.. I am a canuck..( Alberta to be precise ) and well..
          our government is a little more anal about the gun/weapon issues.
          Thank you though, I never would have thought of contacting the City
          Police for City bylaws and such.
          DOn't think it would be an issue.. but would hate to blunder into
          something and stir up a hornets nest.

          Onora


          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Hemmer" <captmac382@h...>
          wrote:
          > Onora,
          >
          > As a former peace officer (Colorado) and law enforcement
          agent (Fed)
          > I can reliably tell you that if it is illegal; it's either only
          in your
          > state, or your municipality, as I've trained for years shooting
          human
          > silouettes as a cop, agent, and soldier. Further, we regularly use
          human
          > silouettes for archer duels in Denver, Co. and can even buy them
          at various
          > cop shops" (police/security supply stores). Check your local codes
          (ask a
          > cop, he/she should know) but be assured that there is no Federal
          law against
          > it (it would fall under the baliwick of the ATF). Hope this
          helps.....
          >
          > YIS,
          > Fionn
          >
          > -------Original Message-------
          >
          > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2003 06:53:37 PM
          > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery Targets Illegal?
          >
          > I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and
          barbarians
          > and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they
          might
          > not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human
          likeness'
          > are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss informed?
          >
          >
          >
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          > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
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          list]
          >
          >
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        • Robert Lauderdale
          ... The only place I ve seen this rule is at the local Renaissance Festival. Chidiock the Younger Calontir
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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            you wrote:
            >
            >Lord Ragnar MacHardy, Grandmaster Bowman of the East
            >
            >Onora inghen mic Tomais <ladyodett@...> wrote:
            >I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and barbarians
            >and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they might
            >not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human likeness'
            >are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss informed?
            >

            The only place I've seen this rule is at the local Renaissance Festival.

            Chidiock the Younger
            Calontir
          • Bob Upson
            ... Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman aren t always above saying something is illegal when it is. = YIS, Macsen
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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              On 11 Jul 2003 at 7:49, Greg Christensen wrote:

              > There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which) where they
              > are illegal. They did this to discourage training of posible killers with
              > guns. Call your local police and ask them if you are not sure.

              Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman
              aren't always above saying something is "illegal" when it is. =>

              YIS,
              Macsen
            • hanhebin
              ... Let s bring this discussion to reality. They don t prosecute many laws that are presently on the books and I doubt that anything would come of shooting
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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                >> There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which)
                >> where they are illegal. They did this to discourage training of
                >> posible killers with guns. Call your local police and ask them if
                >> you are not sure.

                > Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman
                > aren't always above saying something is "illegal" when it is. =>

                Let's bring this discussion to reality. They don't prosecute many
                laws that are presently on the books and I doubt that anything would
                come of shooting any kind of paper / cardboard target you wish.
                There is simply too much case law on the books that no DA would waste
                the resources because they know they would lose on appeal.

                Michael
              • Erasmus Urswyc
                I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them at the range if you know
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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                  I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them at the range if you know the people there. I don't think anyone is going to care if you use them or not.

                  hanhebin <hamberg@...> wrote:>> There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which)
                  >> where they are illegal. They did this to discourage training of
                  >> posible killers with guns. Call your local police and ask them if
                  >> you are not sure.

                  > Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman
                  > aren't always above saying something is "illegal" when it is. =>

                  Let's bring this discussion to reality. They don't prosecute many
                  laws that are presently on the books and I doubt that anything would
                  come of shooting any kind of paper / cardboard target you wish.
                  There is simply too much case law on the books that no DA would waste
                  the resources because they know they would lose on appeal.

                  Michael




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                • James C. Wolf
                  The archery range we have indoor/winter practice at won t let us use man shaped targets for insurance reasons, outdoors in the park/summer practice they re ok
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 12, 2003
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                    The archery range we have indoor/winter practice at won't let us use man
                    shaped targets for insurance reasons, outdoors in the park/summer
                    practice they're ok tho.
                    Felix G., Boga Fyrd

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                  • Bob Upson
                    ... Again, this is a local issue. It s certainly not an issue where I live. There are target ranges that don t allow shooting silhouettes* but it isn t
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 13, 2003
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                      On 11 Jul 2003 at 23:05, Erasmus Urswyc wrote:

                      > I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know
                      > its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy

                      Again, this is a local issue. It's certainly not an issue where I
                      live. There are target ranges that don't allow shooting silhouettes*
                      but it isn't illegal per se.

                      *(More for PR reasons than anything else, I suspect.)

                      YIS,
                      Macsen
                    • hanhebin
                      ... Agreed! Back to the original point. Can you imagine the trial of several archers getting ticketed for shooting a cardboard cutout of a mounted knight as I
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 13, 2003
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                        > *(More for PR reasons than anything else, I suspect.)

                        Agreed!

                        Back to the original point. Can you imagine the trial of several
                        archers getting ticketed for shooting a cardboard cutout of a mounted
                        knight as I still remember the media attention that juror got a few
                        years back because she insisted on wearing a Star Trek uniform. The
                        media would have a field day with this one as the case would
                        definitely draw national attention. I can't imagine a single juror
                        voting guilty or single person in the courtroom having a straight
                        face.

                        Then again, it might just be worth a $50 fine because you would
                        probably get on the "Tonight Show" or "Larry King Live." Definitely
                        would get your 15 minutes of fame.

                        Michael
                      • Fearghus Mac Lochloinn
                        ... its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them at the range if you know the people there. I don t think anyone is going to care if
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 13, 2003
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                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Erasmus Urswyc
                          <erasmus_urswyc@y...> wrote:
                          > I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know
                          its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them
                          at the range if you know the people there. I don't think anyone is
                          going to care if you use them or not.

                          You must not live in the finr Peoples Republik of Kaliphornya, when I
                          go shooting a hand gun or rifle or shotgun I can pretty much put up
                          any target I darn well please. Just so long as it is not to
                          distracing to the other shooters :)

                          YIS and in Good Humor Fearghus
                        • roguenad2000
                          ... Must be your local festival. Most of the Ones I have been doing (Corona, Econdido, Las Vegas) the Folks from the archers Of Ravenwood seem to almost always
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Robert Lauderdale
                            <chidiock@a...> wrote:

                            > The only place I've seen this rule is at the local
                            > Renaissance Festival.

                            Must be your local festival. Most of the Ones I have been doing
                            (Corona, Econdido, Las Vegas) the Folks from the archers Of
                            Ravenwood seem to almost always have a target or two that look like
                            people.

                            Nad
                          • jameswolfden
                            If you are still concerned, you could try to do what I did for our local barony championship shoot. I made up some dummies out of burlap (stuffed with poly).
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                              If you are still concerned, you could try to do what I did for our
                              local barony championship shoot.

                              I made up some dummies out of burlap (stuffed with poly). For
                              the heads, I started with 1/2 a pool noodle and then wrapped it
                              in strips of a cut-up blue camping foam to get it to look more like
                              a head. However, in this case the organizer specifically
                              requested that she wanted Orcs or some other monster. We
                              added big pointy ears and finished the head with green crepe
                              paper mache. It's still human shaped but, for those that would
                              feel wrong shooting at a human being or, more importantly, for
                              those watching who might feel it is wrong, the fact it is monster
                              takes the edge off. I understand for many in the SCA, you will get
                              archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                              than a knight bearing down on them.

                              For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                              reference to an evil creature called orcneas.

                              The following tip to those wishing to reconstruct. If you buy burlap
                              in the gardening or landscaping department at Home Depot, it
                              will be a lot cheaper than buying burlap at a fabric store. If you
                              don't have enough plastic bags at home, pick up the large roll of
                              poly while you are there.

                              James Wolfden
                            • Bob Upson
                              ... Oooo! A D&D fantasy event... *gak* = ... As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics as I ve ever heard... Not to pick on you
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                On 14 Jul 2003 at 15:41, jameswolfden wrote:

                                > a head. However, in this case the organizer specifically
                                > requested that she wanted Orcs or some other monster. We

                                Oooo! A D&D fantasy event... *gak* =>

                                > added big pointy ears and finished the head with green crepe
                                > paper mache. It's still human shaped but, for those that would
                                > feel wrong shooting at a human being or, more importantly, for
                                > those watching who might feel it is wrong, the fact it is monster
                                > takes the edge off. I understand for many in the SCA, you will get

                                As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics as I've
                                ever heard... Not to pick on you personally, but I think that people
                                who feel so strongly about shooting at a "human" target should just
                                forego shooting rather than forcing event organizers to bend to their
                                silly hang-ups...

                                We're allegedly doing medieval re-creation & recreation to *some*
                                degree in the SCA and that doesn't mean shooting at "orcs" anymore
                                than it means shooting at mass printed FITA targets.

                                > archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                                > than a knight bearing down on them.

                                Yup. These are people who need to find something else to do.

                                > For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                                > reference to an evil creature called orcneas.

                                Erm. So? Tolkien and Gary Gygax both drew heavily on mythology when
                                creating their epic works of fiction but that doesn't make those
                                myths any less fantastic.

                                YIS,
                                Macsen
                              • Talmon Parker
                                I,m sure that there wern t very many archers in the mid ages who were against shooting at men liknesses {targets or real} if that was what was called for at
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                  I,m sure that there wern't very many archers in the mid ages who were
                                  against shooting at men liknesses {targets or real} if that was what was
                                  called for at the time.
                                  For goodness sake, you aren't killing anything here, Loosen up and enjoy
                                  life. It's getting shorter all
                                  the time.


                                  Baron Talmon
                                  Lousy archer who shoots
                                  targets

                                  DER BARON





                                  >From: "Bob Upson" <wyvern@...>
                                  >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Archery Targets Illegal?
                                  >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:24:09 -0400
                                  >
                                  >On 14 Jul 2003 at 15:41, jameswolfden wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > a head. However, in this case the organizer specifically
                                  > > requested that she wanted Orcs or some other monster. We
                                  >
                                  >Oooo! A D&D fantasy event... *gak* =>
                                  >
                                  > > added big pointy ears and finished the head with green crepe
                                  > > paper mache. It's still human shaped but, for those that would
                                  > > feel wrong shooting at a human being or, more importantly, for
                                  > > those watching who might feel it is wrong, the fact it is monster
                                  > > takes the edge off. I understand for many in the SCA, you will get
                                  >
                                  >As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics as I've
                                  >ever heard... Not to pick on you personally, but I think that people
                                  >who feel so strongly about shooting at a "human" target should just
                                  >forego shooting rather than forcing event organizers to bend to their
                                  >silly hang-ups...
                                  >
                                  >We're allegedly doing medieval re-creation & recreation to *some*
                                  >degree in the SCA and that doesn't mean shooting at "orcs" anymore
                                  >than it means shooting at mass printed FITA targets.
                                  >
                                  > > archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                                  > > than a knight bearing down on them.
                                  >
                                  >Yup. These are people who need to find something else to do.
                                  >
                                  > > For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                                  > > reference to an evil creature called orcneas.
                                  >
                                  >Erm. So? Tolkien and Gary Gygax both drew heavily on mythology when
                                  >creating their epic works of fiction but that doesn't make those
                                  >myths any less fantastic.
                                  >
                                  >YIS,
                                  >Macsen
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                                  Let s see,people get dressed in armor and beat the crap out of each other one-on-one or in melee with heavy sticks or poles meant to represent swords,
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                    Let's see,people get dressed in armor and beat the crap out of each
                                    other one-on-one or in melee with heavy sticks or poles meant to
                                    represent swords, polearms, maces and axes. They get in their fanciest
                                    frilliest puffy sleeved shirts and doublets and try to skewer each other
                                    with rapiers and daggers, or they go out into the field dressed in armor
                                    (lght or heavy) and shoot actual projectiles from a bow at armored
                                    fighters .....and yet...there seems to be a problem in some people's
                                    eyes with the notion that archers are shooting at inanimate 2
                                    dimensional or even 3 dimensional targets made to represent a human. The
                                    lunatics are running the asylum!
                                    My business partner and best friend was a pistol instructor for
                                    Nassau County Police(NY) and also was a peace officer. For a short time
                                    I served with him on his crew. We ONLY used human shaped silhouette
                                    targets for qualifying at the range. We also had human representation
                                    targets that had features (yes It did look like John Dillenger).
                                    About 8 years ago I was the range officer at a shooting range here
                                    on Long Island. We sold human silhouette targets all of the time and
                                    they were used quite regularly. The owner of the range facility was a
                                    retired Suffolk County Lt. of Detectives.
                                    When a person purchases a pistol for protection in their home, what
                                    exactly do you think that they might be shooting at should the situation
                                    ever arise? I would want to make sure that the home-owner, gun-owner was
                                    very proficient in using that weapon and hitting what and where they
                                    were aiming at.
                                    If this concept is apalling to you...well welcome to the REAL
                                    world. People can be nasty, frightened, violent, evil, sad as well as
                                    happy, caring, loving and honorable. Sticking your head in the sand and
                                    pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away. The middle ages was a
                                    brutal and violent time. Shooting at people with a bow and arrow was one
                                    of the more benevolent ways that they injured each other .
                                    I know of no law HERE that prohibits shooting at a human shaped
                                    silhouette target or one that is made to look like a "generic" human.
                                    Now...if you are shooting at a target that is made to represent an
                                    elected official, especially the president, then you could be in some
                                    trouble.
                                    I'm not sure about California, I guess the only human shaped
                                    targets you can shoot at there are other travellers on the freeway. :P
                                    -Geoffrei


                                    http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                                  • jameswolfden
                                    ... as I ve ... people ... just ... their ... *some* ... anymore ... No problem. It was an enjoyable shoot but I understand where you are coming from. It would
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Upson"
                                      <wyvern@m...> wrote:
                                      > On 14 Jul 2003 at 15:41, jameswolfden wrote:
                                      >

                                      > As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics
                                      as I've
                                      > ever heard... Not to pick on you personally, but I think that
                                      people
                                      > who feel so strongly about shooting at a "human" target should
                                      just
                                      > forego shooting rather than forcing event organizers to bend to
                                      their
                                      > silly hang-ups...
                                      >
                                      > We're allegedly doing medieval re-creation & recreation to
                                      *some*
                                      > degree in the SCA and that doesn't mean shooting at "orcs"
                                      anymore
                                      > than it means shooting at mass printed FITA targets.

                                      No problem. It was an enjoyable shoot but I understand where
                                      you are coming from. It would have been actually easier to
                                      change the head to a simple barrel helm. (Don't have to try to
                                      make a nose and ears. ) But, yes, in this case, the shoot
                                      organizer was wanting to do something based on LOTR. The
                                      next time they will be used, they will be modified to be viking
                                      raiders. The design allowed for modification.

                                      > > archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                                      > > than a knight bearing down on them.
                                      >
                                      > Yup. These are people who need to find something else to do.

                                      The double standard just amuses me.

                                      > > For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                                      > > reference to an evil creature called orcneas.
                                      >
                                      > Erm. So? Tolkien and Gary Gygax both drew heavily on
                                      mythology when
                                      > creating their epic works of fiction but that doesn't make those
                                      > myths any less fantastic.

                                      So? So nothing! That's the only defense I had. If you are not
                                      going to buy it the first time, restating it isn't going to change your
                                      mind. If I could proved that in period, they shoot at mythological
                                      targets, then I would have something. But I can't and I don't.

                                      IMHO, I think some myths are not always based on the fantastic.
                                      In some cases, it is the demonization of your enemy. Changing
                                      them from human beings defending their land to savage
                                      snarling soulless beasts - more wild than civilized.

                                      James
                                    • hanhebin
                                      ... Don t really think so here as I have yet to hear of a single person cited for shooting a human-like target nor can I find any referencing citing such a law
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                        > The lunatics are running the asylum!

                                        Don't really think so here as I have yet to hear of a single person
                                        cited for shooting a human-like target nor can I find any referencing
                                        citing such a law or ordinance (LEXUS/NEXUS). Me thinkest this is
                                        nothing more than urban legend.

                                        Michael
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