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Re: [SCA-Archery] Archery Targets Illegal?

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  • Steve Mason
    I am unaware of any such rules. Heck we have advancing barbarians all the time. I say go for it. Lord Ragnar MacHardy, Grandmaster Bowman of the East Onora
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 10, 2003
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      I am unaware of any such rules. Heck we have advancing barbarians all the time. I say go for it.


      Lord Ragnar MacHardy, Grandmaster Bowman of the East

      Onora inghen mic Tomais <ladyodett@...> wrote:
      I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and barbarians
      and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they might
      not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human likeness'
      are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss informed?



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    • hanhebin
      ... The FBI sillouette used on their pistol range I believe is Dillinger and I ve actually purchased archery targets of Bin Laden and Saddam. Michael
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 10, 2003
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        > I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and barbarians
        > and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they
        > might not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human
        > likeness' are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss
        > informed?

        The FBI sillouette used on their pistol range I believe is Dillinger
        and I've actually purchased archery targets of Bin Laden and Saddam.

        Michael
      • Greg Christensen
        There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which) where they are illegal. They did this to discourage training of posible killers with guns.
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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          There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which) where they
          are illegal. They did this to discourage training of posible killers with
          guns. Call your local police and ask them if you are not sure.

          GREGGE the ARCHER

          >From: "hanhebin" <hamberg@...>
          >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Archery Targets Illegal?
          >Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:10:21 -0000
          >
          > > I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and barbarians
          > > and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they
          > > might not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human
          > > likeness' are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss
          > > informed?
          >
          >The FBI sillouette used on their pistol range I believe is Dillinger
          >and I've actually purchased archery targets of Bin Laden and Saddam.
          >
          >Michael
          >
          >
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        • Matt Hemmer
          Onora, As a former peace officer (Colorado) and law enforcement agent (Fed) I can reliably tell you that if it is illegal; it s either only in your state, or
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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            Onora,

            As a former peace officer (Colorado) and law enforcement agent (Fed)
            I can reliably tell you that if it is illegal; it's either only in your
            state, or your municipality, as I've trained for years shooting human
            silouettes as a cop, agent, and soldier. Further, we regularly use human
            silouettes for archer duels in Denver, Co. and can even buy them at various
            cop shops" (police/security supply stores). Check your local codes (ask a
            cop, he/she should know) but be assured that there is no Federal law against
            it (it would fall under the baliwick of the ATF). Hope this helps.....

            YIS,
            Fionn

            -------Original Message-------

            From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, July 10, 2003 06:53:37 PM
            To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery Targets Illegal?

            I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and barbarians
            and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they might
            not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human likeness'
            are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss informed?



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          • Onora inghen mic Tomais
            LOL, thank you.. I am a canuck..( Alberta to be precise ) and well.. our government is a little more anal about the gun/weapon issues. Thank you though, I
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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              LOL, thank you.. I am a canuck..( Alberta to be precise ) and well..
              our government is a little more anal about the gun/weapon issues.
              Thank you though, I never would have thought of contacting the City
              Police for City bylaws and such.
              DOn't think it would be an issue.. but would hate to blunder into
              something and stir up a hornets nest.

              Onora


              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Hemmer" <captmac382@h...>
              wrote:
              > Onora,
              >
              > As a former peace officer (Colorado) and law enforcement
              agent (Fed)
              > I can reliably tell you that if it is illegal; it's either only
              in your
              > state, or your municipality, as I've trained for years shooting
              human
              > silouettes as a cop, agent, and soldier. Further, we regularly use
              human
              > silouettes for archer duels in Denver, Co. and can even buy them
              at various
              > cop shops" (police/security supply stores). Check your local codes
              (ask a
              > cop, he/she should know) but be assured that there is no Federal
              law against
              > it (it would fall under the baliwick of the ATF). Hope this
              helps.....
              >
              > YIS,
              > Fionn
              >
              > -------Original Message-------
              >
              > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2003 06:53:37 PM
              > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery Targets Illegal?
              >
              > I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and
              barbarians
              > and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they
              might
              > not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human
              likeness'
              > are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss informed?
              >
              >
              >
              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
              > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2003 by Medieval Mart
              > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
              >
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this
              list]
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              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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            • Robert Lauderdale
              ... The only place I ve seen this rule is at the local Renaissance Festival. Chidiock the Younger Calontir
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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                you wrote:
                >
                >Lord Ragnar MacHardy, Grandmaster Bowman of the East
                >
                >Onora inghen mic Tomais <ladyodett@...> wrote:
                >I am doing up some sketches of horse mounted archers and barbarians
                >and suchnot to make into targets and it dawned on me that they might
                >not be legal. i had heard somewhere that photos and human likeness'
                >are not permitted for target practice.... am I miss informed?
                >

                The only place I've seen this rule is at the local Renaissance Festival.

                Chidiock the Younger
                Calontir
              • Bob Upson
                ... Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman aren t always above saying something is illegal when it is. = YIS, Macsen
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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                  On 11 Jul 2003 at 7:49, Greg Christensen wrote:

                  > There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which) where they
                  > are illegal. They did this to discourage training of posible killers with
                  > guns. Call your local police and ask them if you are not sure.

                  Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman
                  aren't always above saying something is "illegal" when it is. =>

                  YIS,
                  Macsen
                • hanhebin
                  ... Let s bring this discussion to reality. They don t prosecute many laws that are presently on the books and I doubt that anything would come of shooting
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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                    >> There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which)
                    >> where they are illegal. They did this to discourage training of
                    >> posible killers with guns. Call your local police and ask them if
                    >> you are not sure.

                    > Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman
                    > aren't always above saying something is "illegal" when it is. =>

                    Let's bring this discussion to reality. They don't prosecute many
                    laws that are presently on the books and I doubt that anything would
                    come of shooting any kind of paper / cardboard target you wish.
                    There is simply too much case law on the books that no DA would waste
                    the resources because they know they would lose on appeal.

                    Michael
                  • Erasmus Urswyc
                    I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them at the range if you know
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 11, 2003
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                      I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them at the range if you know the people there. I don't think anyone is going to care if you use them or not.

                      hanhebin <hamberg@...> wrote:>> There are some areas, counties, cities, states (unknown which)
                      >> where they are illegal. They did this to discourage training of
                      >> posible killers with guns. Call your local police and ask them if
                      >> you are not sure.

                      > Just be sure to get a citation of any supposed rules. Policeman
                      > aren't always above saying something is "illegal" when it is. =>

                      Let's bring this discussion to reality. They don't prosecute many
                      laws that are presently on the books and I doubt that anything would
                      come of shooting any kind of paper / cardboard target you wish.
                      There is simply too much case law on the books that no DA would waste
                      the resources because they know they would lose on appeal.

                      Michael




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                    • James C. Wolf
                      The archery range we have indoor/winter practice at won t let us use man shaped targets for insurance reasons, outdoors in the park/summer practice they re ok
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 12, 2003
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                        The archery range we have indoor/winter practice at won't let us use man
                        shaped targets for insurance reasons, outdoors in the park/summer
                        practice they're ok tho.
                        Felix G., Boga Fyrd

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                      • Bob Upson
                        ... Again, this is a local issue. It s certainly not an issue where I live. There are target ranges that don t allow shooting silhouettes* but it isn t
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 13, 2003
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                          On 11 Jul 2003 at 23:05, Erasmus Urswyc wrote:

                          > I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know
                          > its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy

                          Again, this is a local issue. It's certainly not an issue where I
                          live. There are target ranges that don't allow shooting silhouettes*
                          but it isn't illegal per se.

                          *(More for PR reasons than anything else, I suspect.)

                          YIS,
                          Macsen
                        • hanhebin
                          ... Agreed! Back to the original point. Can you imagine the trial of several archers getting ticketed for shooting a cardboard cutout of a mounted knight as I
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 13, 2003
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                            > *(More for PR reasons than anything else, I suspect.)

                            Agreed!

                            Back to the original point. Can you imagine the trial of several
                            archers getting ticketed for shooting a cardboard cutout of a mounted
                            knight as I still remember the media attention that juror got a few
                            years back because she insisted on wearing a Star Trek uniform. The
                            media would have a field day with this one as the case would
                            definitely draw national attention. I can't imagine a single juror
                            voting guilty or single person in the courtroom having a straight
                            face.

                            Then again, it might just be worth a $50 fine because you would
                            probably get on the "Tonight Show" or "Larry King Live." Definitely
                            would get your 15 minutes of fame.

                            Michael
                          • Fearghus Mac Lochloinn
                            ... its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them at the range if you know the people there. I don t think anyone is going to care if
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 13, 2003
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                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Erasmus Urswyc
                              <erasmus_urswyc@y...> wrote:
                              > I agree with the argumnt here, I am a handgun shooter and i know
                              its illegal to use human sillouette targets .... but you can buy them
                              at the range if you know the people there. I don't think anyone is
                              going to care if you use them or not.

                              You must not live in the finr Peoples Republik of Kaliphornya, when I
                              go shooting a hand gun or rifle or shotgun I can pretty much put up
                              any target I darn well please. Just so long as it is not to
                              distracing to the other shooters :)

                              YIS and in Good Humor Fearghus
                            • roguenad2000
                              ... Must be your local festival. Most of the Ones I have been doing (Corona, Econdido, Las Vegas) the Folks from the archers Of Ravenwood seem to almost always
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Robert Lauderdale
                                <chidiock@a...> wrote:

                                > The only place I've seen this rule is at the local
                                > Renaissance Festival.

                                Must be your local festival. Most of the Ones I have been doing
                                (Corona, Econdido, Las Vegas) the Folks from the archers Of
                                Ravenwood seem to almost always have a target or two that look like
                                people.

                                Nad
                              • jameswolfden
                                If you are still concerned, you could try to do what I did for our local barony championship shoot. I made up some dummies out of burlap (stuffed with poly).
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                  If you are still concerned, you could try to do what I did for our
                                  local barony championship shoot.

                                  I made up some dummies out of burlap (stuffed with poly). For
                                  the heads, I started with 1/2 a pool noodle and then wrapped it
                                  in strips of a cut-up blue camping foam to get it to look more like
                                  a head. However, in this case the organizer specifically
                                  requested that she wanted Orcs or some other monster. We
                                  added big pointy ears and finished the head with green crepe
                                  paper mache. It's still human shaped but, for those that would
                                  feel wrong shooting at a human being or, more importantly, for
                                  those watching who might feel it is wrong, the fact it is monster
                                  takes the edge off. I understand for many in the SCA, you will get
                                  archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                                  than a knight bearing down on them.

                                  For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                                  reference to an evil creature called orcneas.

                                  The following tip to those wishing to reconstruct. If you buy burlap
                                  in the gardening or landscaping department at Home Depot, it
                                  will be a lot cheaper than buying burlap at a fabric store. If you
                                  don't have enough plastic bags at home, pick up the large roll of
                                  poly while you are there.

                                  James Wolfden
                                • Bob Upson
                                  ... Oooo! A D&D fantasy event... *gak* = ... As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics as I ve ever heard... Not to pick on you
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                    On 14 Jul 2003 at 15:41, jameswolfden wrote:

                                    > a head. However, in this case the organizer specifically
                                    > requested that she wanted Orcs or some other monster. We

                                    Oooo! A D&D fantasy event... *gak* =>

                                    > added big pointy ears and finished the head with green crepe
                                    > paper mache. It's still human shaped but, for those that would
                                    > feel wrong shooting at a human being or, more importantly, for
                                    > those watching who might feel it is wrong, the fact it is monster
                                    > takes the edge off. I understand for many in the SCA, you will get

                                    As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics as I've
                                    ever heard... Not to pick on you personally, but I think that people
                                    who feel so strongly about shooting at a "human" target should just
                                    forego shooting rather than forcing event organizers to bend to their
                                    silly hang-ups...

                                    We're allegedly doing medieval re-creation & recreation to *some*
                                    degree in the SCA and that doesn't mean shooting at "orcs" anymore
                                    than it means shooting at mass printed FITA targets.

                                    > archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                                    > than a knight bearing down on them.

                                    Yup. These are people who need to find something else to do.

                                    > For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                                    > reference to an evil creature called orcneas.

                                    Erm. So? Tolkien and Gary Gygax both drew heavily on mythology when
                                    creating their epic works of fiction but that doesn't make those
                                    myths any less fantastic.

                                    YIS,
                                    Macsen
                                  • Talmon Parker
                                    I,m sure that there wern t very many archers in the mid ages who were against shooting at men liknesses {targets or real} if that was what was called for at
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                      I,m sure that there wern't very many archers in the mid ages who were
                                      against shooting at men liknesses {targets or real} if that was what was
                                      called for at the time.
                                      For goodness sake, you aren't killing anything here, Loosen up and enjoy
                                      life. It's getting shorter all
                                      the time.


                                      Baron Talmon
                                      Lousy archer who shoots
                                      targets

                                      DER BARON





                                      >From: "Bob Upson" <wyvern@...>
                                      >Reply-To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Archery Targets Illegal?
                                      >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:24:09 -0400
                                      >
                                      >On 14 Jul 2003 at 15:41, jameswolfden wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > a head. However, in this case the organizer specifically
                                      > > requested that she wanted Orcs or some other monster. We
                                      >
                                      >Oooo! A D&D fantasy event... *gak* =>
                                      >
                                      > > added big pointy ears and finished the head with green crepe
                                      > > paper mache. It's still human shaped but, for those that would
                                      > > feel wrong shooting at a human being or, more importantly, for
                                      > > those watching who might feel it is wrong, the fact it is monster
                                      > > takes the edge off. I understand for many in the SCA, you will get
                                      >
                                      >As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics as I've
                                      >ever heard... Not to pick on you personally, but I think that people
                                      >who feel so strongly about shooting at a "human" target should just
                                      >forego shooting rather than forcing event organizers to bend to their
                                      >silly hang-ups...
                                      >
                                      >We're allegedly doing medieval re-creation & recreation to *some*
                                      >degree in the SCA and that doesn't mean shooting at "orcs" anymore
                                      >than it means shooting at mass printed FITA targets.
                                      >
                                      > > archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                                      > > than a knight bearing down on them.
                                      >
                                      >Yup. These are people who need to find something else to do.
                                      >
                                      > > For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                                      > > reference to an evil creature called orcneas.
                                      >
                                      >Erm. So? Tolkien and Gary Gygax both drew heavily on mythology when
                                      >creating their epic works of fiction but that doesn't make those
                                      >myths any less fantastic.
                                      >
                                      >YIS,
                                      >Macsen
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      >
                                      >

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                                    • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                                      Let s see,people get dressed in armor and beat the crap out of each other one-on-one or in melee with heavy sticks or poles meant to represent swords,
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                        Let's see,people get dressed in armor and beat the crap out of each
                                        other one-on-one or in melee with heavy sticks or poles meant to
                                        represent swords, polearms, maces and axes. They get in their fanciest
                                        frilliest puffy sleeved shirts and doublets and try to skewer each other
                                        with rapiers and daggers, or they go out into the field dressed in armor
                                        (lght or heavy) and shoot actual projectiles from a bow at armored
                                        fighters .....and yet...there seems to be a problem in some people's
                                        eyes with the notion that archers are shooting at inanimate 2
                                        dimensional or even 3 dimensional targets made to represent a human. The
                                        lunatics are running the asylum!
                                        My business partner and best friend was a pistol instructor for
                                        Nassau County Police(NY) and also was a peace officer. For a short time
                                        I served with him on his crew. We ONLY used human shaped silhouette
                                        targets for qualifying at the range. We also had human representation
                                        targets that had features (yes It did look like John Dillenger).
                                        About 8 years ago I was the range officer at a shooting range here
                                        on Long Island. We sold human silhouette targets all of the time and
                                        they were used quite regularly. The owner of the range facility was a
                                        retired Suffolk County Lt. of Detectives.
                                        When a person purchases a pistol for protection in their home, what
                                        exactly do you think that they might be shooting at should the situation
                                        ever arise? I would want to make sure that the home-owner, gun-owner was
                                        very proficient in using that weapon and hitting what and where they
                                        were aiming at.
                                        If this concept is apalling to you...well welcome to the REAL
                                        world. People can be nasty, frightened, violent, evil, sad as well as
                                        happy, caring, loving and honorable. Sticking your head in the sand and
                                        pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away. The middle ages was a
                                        brutal and violent time. Shooting at people with a bow and arrow was one
                                        of the more benevolent ways that they injured each other .
                                        I know of no law HERE that prohibits shooting at a human shaped
                                        silhouette target or one that is made to look like a "generic" human.
                                        Now...if you are shooting at a target that is made to represent an
                                        elected official, especially the president, then you could be in some
                                        trouble.
                                        I'm not sure about California, I guess the only human shaped
                                        targets you can shoot at there are other travellers on the freeway. :P
                                        -Geoffrei


                                        http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                                      • jameswolfden
                                        ... as I ve ... people ... just ... their ... *some* ... anymore ... No problem. It was an enjoyable shoot but I understand where you are coming from. It would
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Upson"
                                          <wyvern@m...> wrote:
                                          > On 14 Jul 2003 at 15:41, jameswolfden wrote:
                                          >

                                          > As impressive a bit of sophistry and roundabout apologetics
                                          as I've
                                          > ever heard... Not to pick on you personally, but I think that
                                          people
                                          > who feel so strongly about shooting at a "human" target should
                                          just
                                          > forego shooting rather than forcing event organizers to bend to
                                          their
                                          > silly hang-ups...
                                          >
                                          > We're allegedly doing medieval re-creation & recreation to
                                          *some*
                                          > degree in the SCA and that doesn't mean shooting at "orcs"
                                          anymore
                                          > than it means shooting at mass printed FITA targets.

                                          No problem. It was an enjoyable shoot but I understand where
                                          you are coming from. It would have been actually easier to
                                          change the head to a simple barrel helm. (Don't have to try to
                                          make a nose and ears. ) But, yes, in this case, the shoot
                                          organizer was wanting to do something based on LOTR. The
                                          next time they will be used, they will be modified to be viking
                                          raiders. The design allowed for modification.

                                          > > archers that are more squeamish about shooting a 3-D deer
                                          > > than a knight bearing down on them.
                                          >
                                          > Yup. These are people who need to find something else to do.

                                          The double standard just amuses me.

                                          > > For the period police, the original text of Beowulf makes
                                          > > reference to an evil creature called orcneas.
                                          >
                                          > Erm. So? Tolkien and Gary Gygax both drew heavily on
                                          mythology when
                                          > creating their epic works of fiction but that doesn't make those
                                          > myths any less fantastic.

                                          So? So nothing! That's the only defense I had. If you are not
                                          going to buy it the first time, restating it isn't going to change your
                                          mind. If I could proved that in period, they shoot at mythological
                                          targets, then I would have something. But I can't and I don't.

                                          IMHO, I think some myths are not always based on the fantastic.
                                          In some cases, it is the demonization of your enemy. Changing
                                          them from human beings defending their land to savage
                                          snarling soulless beasts - more wild than civilized.

                                          James
                                        • hanhebin
                                          ... Don t really think so here as I have yet to hear of a single person cited for shooting a human-like target nor can I find any referencing citing such a law
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jul 14, 2003
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            > The lunatics are running the asylum!

                                            Don't really think so here as I have yet to hear of a single person
                                            cited for shooting a human-like target nor can I find any referencing
                                            citing such a law or ordinance (LEXUS/NEXUS). Me thinkest this is
                                            nothing more than urban legend.

                                            Michael
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