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Re: periodness of two sights

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  • Obsidian
    ... Greetings Oh, I daresay that availablity of practice makes a difference, certainly so. I shoot a trad crossbow myself, and am almost entirely disallowed
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 5 10:17 AM
      AMENSEYA@... wrote:
      >
      > From: AMENSEYA@...
      >
      > Forester Nigel,
      >
      > Bear with me a moment, but I have to dispute the reason why a recurve
      > won over a crossbow in the winter shoot.
      >
      > In my area, we are not allowed to use crossbows in any indoor venue that
      > I have checked. This makes shooting crossbows next to impossible in the
      > winter shoot.
      > So perhaps that is the reason.
      >
      > However, I agree with you that the accuracy of 14 arrows at each of 2
      > speed rounds is impressive and wonderful.
      >
      > YIS
      > Lady Ayesha of the Flowing Sands
      > MAY Your arrows fly straight and hit their targets
      > AMENSEYA@...

      Greetings
      Oh, I daresay that availablity of practice makes a difference,
      certainly so. I shoot a trad crossbow myself, and am almost entirely
      disallowed from both indoor AND some outdoor ranges, because it doesn't
      have a safety, etc. Last years Winter Challenge had a bunch of crossbows
      near the top of the charts, many from one particular group (Hi,
      Havenholde...), largely because that crossbow-heavy group has a c'bow
      friendly range where they practice at least once a week, if not more.
      My point about a recurve winning the Challenge was not so much about
      specifics of available practice time and general SCA conditions, as it
      was that crossbows and handbows each have well understood advantages and
      disadvantages with respect to one another, and that therefore a
      handbowman shouln't feel that it is always a hopeless proposition to
      compete against a crossbow.

      Forester Nigel FitzMaurice, Mid
      --

      Ex Tenebra, Lux

      http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
    • AMENSEYA@xxx.xxx
      Thank you for setting me straight on it. I shoot both crossbow and Mongolian bow and understand the advantages that each have and agree with you so totally
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 5 10:20 AM
        Thank you for setting me straight on it. I shoot both crossbow and Mongolian
        bow and understand the advantages that each have and agree with you so
        totally that each has its own plusses and minuses.

        Lady Ayesha
      • Ian Gourdon
        ... Certainly, some crossbows didn t shoot the winter challenge. On the other hand, the best crossbow shooters of my acquaintance (in the Midrealm, anyway) did
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 5 1:37 PM
          AMENSEYA@... wrote:
          >
          > From: AMENSEYA@...
          >
          > Forester Nigel,
          >
          > Bear with me a moment, but I have to dispute the reason why a recurve
          > won over a crossbow in the winter shoot.
          >
          > In my area, we are not allowed to use crossbows in any indoor venue that
          > I have checked. This makes shooting crossbows next to impossible in the
          > winter shoot.
          > So perhaps that is the reason.
          >
          > However, I agree with you that the accuracy of 14 arrows at each of 2
          > speed rounds is impressive and wonderful.
          >
          > YIS
          > Lady Ayesha of the Flowing Sands
          > MAY Your arrows fly straight and hit their targets
          > AMENSEYA@...

          Certainly, some crossbows didn't shoot the winter challenge. On the
          other hand, the best crossbow shooters of my acquaintance (in the
          Midrealm, anyway) did shoot it. And were outshot. Otherwise, they were a
          large proportion of the top ten, I seem to remember.
          --
          Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe, OP, CGC
          - "Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small,
          large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good
          sense.
          Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might
          of the enemy.''
          Winston Churchill
          - 29 October 1941 to the boys at Harrow - - - - - - -
          http://web.raex.com/~agincort
        • Alberic
          Greetings: Sort of an omnibus reply coming. On the two-sighted crossbow question, as far as I can remember, I saw one once in the Basel city museum with a
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 5 2:39 PM
            Greetings:

            Sort of an omnibus reply coming.

            On the two-sighted crossbow question, as far as I can remember, I saw
            one once in the Basel city museum with a "goalpost" style foresight,
            dated to 1580 or so.
            It's been about 10 years, so I could be mis-remembering where I saw it,
            but perhaps writing to the museum director would yield some information?

            As far as crossbows and unfair advantages...well, no, not really, just
            anachronistic shooting gear. Personally, I agree with Sigfried,
            crossbows should probably be in their own division, but not exactly for
            the same reason.
            Part of the reason we have such troubles with our "mission" in archery
            is the huge range of times and places we're trying to re-create.
            The technology of archery changed tremendously over the 1000+ years the
            SCA covers. I find it not at all surprising that someone using late
            period gear can easily outshoot someone using early medieval gear. It
            has nothing to do with "fair" or "unfair", it has to do with the
            advances in technology.
            A more "fair" shooting structure would be to group the archers not by
            crossbow/handbow, but rather chronologically. So that folks using early
            period gear don't wind up competing against others using late period
            tack-drivers. The surprise there isn't that the late period gear is
            more accurate (but slower), but rather that the hand bows are
            competitive at all.
            By way of analogy, would you compete a smoothbore "hook gun" (hand
            cannon) against a flintlock musket? How'd the musket do against a
            winchester carbine? What would the carbine be worth against a gatling
            gun? So why do we compete crossbows against handbows in accuracy contests?

            Cheers-
            Alberic
          • Karl Sandhoff
            I, for one wiould welcome it for the variety it would bring. In mundane competitions we have a plethora of classes for true barebow, single point sighted
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 5 3:29 PM
              I, for one wiould welcome it for the variety it would bring. In mundane
              competitions we have a plethora of classes for true barebow, single point
              sighted recorve, doublesighted recurve, and similar for compounds. then
              we get to the crossbows. It seems silly to me that we have not
              established a similar system to deal with the range of technology we are
              using. On the tourney field, the technology didn't change much till the
              advent of the rapier and we have seperated that entirely. If we are
              truely trying to we an "educational" organization, we should we showing
              the changes in the technology over the time and geographic span of the
              period we are recreating. Thus this documentation should be brought
              forward, considered, and incorporated.
              Carolus von Eulenhorst

              On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 11:16:40 -0500 Siegfried Sebastian Faust
              <eliwhite@...> writes:
              >From: Siegfried Sebastian Faust <eliwhite@...>
              >
              >
              >>This is almost 100 percent a theoretical question, as I prefer
              >showing off the
              >>skill I have developed with a sight-free crossbow, but if I had just
              >recently
              >>come across documentation for a 16th century crossbow with a front
              >and rear
              >>sight (both adjustable, in a limited fashion), and they were stamped
              >with the
              >>same maker's mark as the buttplate of the bow (meaning they were not
              >>out-of-period additions), would this documentation be enough to cause
              >a
              >>re-think in the sights rules for SCA crossbow archery?
              >
              >It very well might, but in general, it would be wonderful to see such
              >documentation, simply because if it DID exist, many people will want
              >to
              >know about it.
              >
              >Currently the sights rules are there CLAIMING that it is because they
              >didn't exist. At least if the this documentation was brought out, and
              >the
              >rules were wanting to remain the same, they would at LEAST have to be
              >changed to say: "They are not allowed because of the competitive edge
              >they
              >give."
              >
              >>Or is the sighting rule (as it should be, in my opinion) there to
              >keep one
              >>class of weapons from completely dominating all shooting,
              >
              >However, I myself feel that this should not be the case. We are
              >therefore
              >then saying: "Sorry, you can't use that perfectly period crossbow at
              >our
              >SCA event, where we are supposed to be recreating period things,
              >because it
              >gives you an advantage and we don't like that.
              >
              >We should be promoting people performing period tasks, and if it was
              >period, don't then tell someone they can't do it.
              >
              >It would be like (for example) someone coming forward in heavy
              >fighting
              >with a one handed sword with a 4' blade on it, and lets say for
              >arguments
              >sake (yeah, yeah, I know this wouldn't happen) that this one person,
              >with
              >this 4' blade, starts killing everyone, knights, dukes, etc.
              >
              >He is unstoppable.
              >
              >It would be the same if we then passed a rule saying: "no swords
              >blades can
              >be longer than 3' because they otherwise give a competitive edge".
              >Even if
              >it was a perfectly period sword style, and he was using it
              >wonderfully.
              >
              >Safety is one issue, something being period is another, but
              >competitive
              >edge shouldn't be.
              >
              >
              >NOW ... let me say something else though ...
              >
              >I have NO problems with an equalizer though. It is a known fact that
              >crossbows are more accurate than bows in the hands of the
              >unskilled. Someone can usually pick up a crossbow and be much more
              >accurate than a bow before they have been well trained in it's use.
              >
              >Look at the number of ludicrous bowman that are crossbows as the
              >description of the top end of crossbow use.
              >
              >If crossbows are as
              >'extra-deadly-accurate-you-cant-beat-them-with-a-regular-bow' than
              >bows,
              >they why are we competing on the same field?
              >
              >Personally, I am a crossbowman, why? Because (a) my persona would
              >have
              >been MUCH more apt to use a crossbow, and (b) I have alot of fun with
              >it.
              >
              >I am not a crossbowman because I want a competitive edge. If dual
              >sights
              >were proved period and allowed, yes, I may very well consider putting
              >one
              >on to play with it .. why? Because I think it would be fun, and
              >something
              >else to try.
              >
              >However I am very tired of hearing people call crossbowmen an
              >'epidemic'
              >(even when they are joking and being lighthearted), and I don't know
              >HOW
              >many times I have heard VERY good bowman come off of the field and
              >when I
              >ask them how they did, the response is: "Couldn't hold up against the
              >crossbows today."
              >
              >So my question comes again, why are we competing in the same class?
              >
              >I would have NO problems, and would in fact enjoy it, if crossbowmen
              >were
              >separated into a different competitive division.
              >
              >You could have the exact same competitions as you do now. Just don't
              >give
              >an 'overall' award. Give a crossbow award, and a bow award.
              >
              >Or gauge your competitions to be equal ...
              >
              >For example, why don't crossbowmen shoot at 40cm targets for royal
              >rounds
              >while bowman shoot at a 60cm? Sounds like a good equalizer to me ...
              >
              >Also when designing roving ranges and such, don't let the crossbowmen
              >have
              >that much of an advantage ... a good example of this is Pennsic, where
              >
              >many/most of the shots did their best to equalize, by having speed
              >rounds
              >(typically a bit of an equalizer), and having 'must stand' rounds
              >(especailly must stand speed rounds), you can tend to equalize things
              >a bit
              >as well ...
              >
              >But I have no problem competeing in a different 'class', and in fact
              >would
              >like to, as I hate the 'negativity' that I see in people about
              >crossbows. I have seen a number of people (my wife included) get
              >frustrated with archery because of the crossbowmen (like myself)
              >getting
              >better scores quickly. I even know of some bowmen who are getting
              >crossbows for similar reasons.
              >
              >On the converse, a good example is combat archery, where I still use a
              >
              >crossbow, why? Because I am a crossbowmen at heart and I love it.
              >Even
              >though people have tried to tell me that I am not going to have as
              >much
              >fun, or that I won't be able to be as effective because of reload
              >time,
              >etc. So everyone ELSE is using regular bows for combat archery,
              >because
              >they are the 'most effective'.
              >
              >But I don't care, I use my crossbow, and I love it *grin*
              >
              >*shew*
              >
              >>and are other
              >>examples of front- and rear-sighted crossbows already well known and
              >just
              >>disregarded in our situation?
              >
              >I don't think so, at least, if they do exist, then I have been lied to
              >/
              >misinformed many times
              >
              >Siegfried
              >
              >______________________________________________________________________
              >Lord Siegfried Sebastian Faust Barony of Highland Foorde
              > Minister of Misinformation (Chronicler & Web Minister)
              > http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org
              >
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            • James W. Pratt Jr.
              ... that ... Try using the fact that the crossbows we use are no more powerfull that a hunting compound bow. Also you can voluteer to bring your own back stop
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 5 7:08 PM
                >From: AMENSEYA@...
                >
                > In my area, we are not allowed to use crossbows in any indoor venue
                that
                >I have checked. This makes shooting crossbows next to impossible in the
                >winter shoot.


                Try using the fact that the crossbows we use are no more powerfull that a
                hunting compound bow. Also you can voluteer to bring your own back stop to
                stop the crossbow bolts befor they get buried... another problem with
                crossbows.

                James Cunningham
              • AMENSEYA@xxx.xxx
                James, Thank you for the suggestions. Lady Ayesha
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 5 7:44 PM
                  James,

                  Thank you for the suggestions.

                  Lady Ayesha
                • Guy Taylor
                  ... to ... It is quite possiible that the crossbow restriction at some indoor ranges is due to the dislike that many modern archers have for crossbows. It can
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 5 8:19 PM
                    > Try using the fact that the crossbows we use are no more powerfull that a
                    > hunting compound bow. Also you can voluteer to bring your own back stop
                    to
                    > stop the crossbow bolts befor they get buried... another problem with
                    > crossbows.
                    >
                    > James Cunningham

                    It is quite possiible that the crossbow restriction at some indoor ranges is
                    due to the dislike that many modern archers have for crossbows. It can
                    ocassionally border on rabid hate. Reason might not help in those
                    instances.
                    My local county run outdoor range bans them for political reasons.

                    Taillear
                  • Michael vanBergen
                    Publish your sources so those involved in the discussion can be on equal ground. Michael On Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:02:39 -0800 Chris Nogy
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 5 9:14 PM
                      Publish your sources so those involved in the discussion can be on equal
                      ground.


                      Michael



                      On Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:02:39 -0800 Chris Nogy <cnogy@...>
                      writes:
                      >From: Chris Nogy <cnogy@...>
                      >
                      >This is almost 100 percent a theoretical question, as I prefer showing
                      >off the
                      >skill I have developed with a sight-free crossbow, but if I had just
                      >recently
                      >come across documentation for a 16th century crossbow with a front and
                      >rear
                      >sight (both adjustable, in a limited fashion), and they were stamped
                      >with the
                      >same maker's mark as the buttplate of the bow (meaning they were not
                      >out-of-period additions), would this documentation be enough to cause
                      >a
                      >re-think in the sights rules for SCA crossbow archery?
                      >
                      >Or is the sighting rule (as it should be, in my opinion) there to keep
                      >one
                      >class of weapons from completely dominating all shooting, and are
                      >other
                      >examples of front- and rear-sighted crossbows already well known and
                      >just
                      >disregarded in our situation?
                      >
                      >Just wanted to know, and to start up some conversation...
                      >
                      >Kaz
                      >
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                    • Gerald L. Collins
                      I am not sure about AMENSEYA@aol.com s situation, but I know that some of the indoor ranges in the St. Louis, MO area won t allow crossbows because of
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 5 9:40 PM
                        I am not sure about AMENSEYA@...'s situation, but I know that some
                        of the indoor ranges in the St. Louis, MO area won't allow crossbows
                        because of insurance problems. Also, there has been discussion in the
                        past that crossbows are a firearm because of their mechanical release (I
                        think this is supposed to be a state regulation.) At outdoor ranges
                        I've never worried about the possible problems that might pose and have
                        never had any problems with law enforcement officials.

                        Idris ap Llawr


                        "James W. Pratt Jr." wrote:
                        >
                        > From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
                        >
                        > >From: AMENSEYA@...
                        > >
                        > > In my area, we are not allowed to use crossbows in any indoor venue
                        > that
                        > >I have checked. This makes shooting crossbows next to impossible in the
                        > >winter shoot.
                        >
                        > Try using the fact that the crossbows we use are no more powerfull that a
                        > hunting compound bow. Also you can voluteer to bring your own back stop to
                        > stop the crossbow bolts befor they get buried... another problem with
                        > crossbows.
                        >
                        > James Cunningham
                        >
                        > > This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
                        > of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
                        > [SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@... to leave this list]
                      • Guy Taylor
                        ... Firearms?! I am in the firearms trade and I can assure you that if compound shooters using mechanical releases had to start going through the political
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 5 10:45 PM
                          > From: "Gerald L. Collins" <idris@...>
                          >
                          > I am not sure about AMENSEYA@...'s situation, but I know that some
                          > of the indoor ranges in the St. Louis, MO area won't allow crossbows
                          > because of insurance problems. Also, there has been discussion in the
                          > past that crossbows are a firearm because of their mechanical release (I
                          > think this is supposed to be a state regulation.) At outdoor ranges
                          > I've never worried about the possible problems that might pose and have
                          > never had any problems with law enforcement officials.
                          >
                          > Idris ap Llawr


                          Firearms?! I am in the firearms trade and I can assure you that if compound
                          shooters using mechanical releases had to start going through the political
                          crap that firearm owners and shooters have to go through, there would be
                          some Very upset archers.
                          Saying that crossbows are firearms sounds like typical political stupidity.

                          Sorry for the rant, gun rights are a sore spot to me.

                          Taillear
                        • James W. Pratt Jr.
                          Everyone please be careful...do not confuse problems, discussion, fact, attitude, and law. Try to use specifics as much as possible. I thought it was a law...
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 6 7:47 AM
                            Everyone please be careful...do not confuse problems, discussion, fact,
                            attitude, and law. Try to use specifics as much as possible. I thought it
                            was a law... may do as much harm as Society for Consenting Adults.

                            James Cunningham

                            P.S. A flame war over RRs is fine. Bad and/or false information on this is
                            harmfull.


                            >From: "Gerald L. Collins" <idris@...>
                            >
                            >I am not sure about AMENSEYA@...'s situation, but I know that some
                            >of the indoor ranges in the St. Louis, MO area won't allow crossbows
                            >because of insurance problems. Also, there has been discussion in the
                            >past that crossbows are a firearm because of their mechanical release (I
                            >think this is supposed to be a state regulation.) At outdoor ranges
                            >I've never worried about the possible problems that might pose and have
                            >never had any problems with law enforcement officials.
                            >
                            >Idris ap Llawr
                            >
                            >
                            >"James W. Pratt Jr." wrote:
                            >>
                            >> From: "James W. Pratt Jr." <cunning@...>
                            >>
                            >> >From: AMENSEYA@...
                            >> >
                            >> > In my area, we are not allowed to use crossbows in any indoor venue
                            >> that
                            >> >I have checked. This makes shooting crossbows next to impossible in the
                            >> >winter shoot.
                            >>
                            >> Try using the fact that the crossbows we use are no more powerfull that a
                            >> hunting compound bow. Also you can voluteer to bring your own back stop
                            to
                            >> stop the crossbow bolts befor they get buried... another problem with
                            >> crossbows.
                            >>
                            >> James Cunningham
                            >>
                            >> > This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
                            >> of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
                            >> [SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@... to leave this list]
                            >
                            >>This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
                            >of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
                            >[SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@... to leave this list]
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