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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Loose-headed arrows & Silk

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  • Carl West
    ... I don t get why having the head come off would make it particularly more difficult to extract an arrow head that had failed to pierce a silk shirt. Grab
    Message 1 of 4 , May 10, 2003
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      Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
      > ...
      > It is documented that the Mongols did not not leave their fallen on
      > the field, and that their silk shirts allowed arrows to be extracted
      > without fatal effect. This would not be posssible if the heads came
      > off.

      I don't get why having the head come off would make it particularly more difficult to extract an arrow head that had failed to pierce a silk shirt. Grab hold of the silk evenly around the edge of the wound and haul the thing out just like you would if there _was_ a shaft. The orientation of the head during the reverse pull would likely be the same as when there was a shaft. And the 'smoothing' or barb-covering action of the silk would be the same too.

      I've heard that silk worked that way with musket balls too.

      -Fritz

      (who's been off list for a couple of days because Yahoo didn't cope with ATTBI doing maintenance on its servers. feh.)
      --
      Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

      I have no superfluous leisure; my stay must be stolen out
      of other affairs; but I will attend you awhile.
      - Isabella, Measure for Measure, Act 3 Scene 1
      -
    • Kinjal of Moravia
      ... on ... extracted ... came ... particularly more difficult to extract an arrow head that had failed to pierce a silk shirt. Grab hold of the silk evenly
      Message 2 of 4 , May 10, 2003
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        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carl West <eisen@a...> wrote:
        > Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
        > > ...
        > > It is documented that the Mongols did not not leave their fallen
        on
        > > the field, and that their silk shirts allowed arrows to be
        extracted
        > > without fatal effect. This would not be posssible if the heads
        came
        > > off.
        >
        > I don't get why having the head come off would make it
        particularly more difficult to extract an arrow head that had failed
        to pierce a silk shirt. Grab hold of the silk evenly around the edge
        of the wound and haul the thing out just like you would if there
        _was_ a shaft. The orientation of the head during the reverse pull
        would likely be the same as when there was a shaft. And
        the 'smoothing' or barb-covering action of the silk would be the
        same too.
        >
        > I've heard that silk worked that way with musket balls too.
        >
        > -Fritz
        >
        >> I am sure you could be correct, but I fail to believe that
        soldiers would be so careless. If I were in charge I would want my
        barbed arrows to be permanent and lethal, maybe dip them in cow-shit
        or something. The idea that an arrow head simply fell off makes no
        strategical sense, though I appreciate your recognition of silk
        effectiveness. But then, a a lot of other mediaval practices don't
        make sense either, like King Richard refusing to allow knights on
        horses to charge the field - unfair?

        What will happen when a combatant tells a marshal he was not injured
        beause he has a silk shirt and that the arrow head probably fell
        off?
      • jameswolfden
        ... not injured ... In SCA combat, the marshall would tell him he was dead because he didn t have a silk shirt, he was wearing mail over a padded gambeson.
        Message 3 of 4 , May 11, 2003
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          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
          <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:


          >
          > What will happen when a combatant tells a marshal he was
          not injured
          > beause he has a silk shirt and that the arrow head probably fell
          > off?

          In SCA combat, the marshall would tell him he was dead
          because he didn't have a silk shirt, he was wearing mail over a
          padded gambeson. You can wear whatever armour suits your
          persona but the SCA combat rules evens everything out and
          everybody is considered to be wearing the same.

          From the Rules of the List, Section V. Acknowledgment of
          Blows...

          1. All "fully armored" fighters are presumed to be wearing a
          hauberk over a padded gambeson with boiled leather arm and
          leg defenses and an open-faced iron helm with a nasal.

          James Wolfden
        • Kinjal of Moravia
          ... Yes, of course -- and in playing the SCA game this is fine. But those who attack CA want to force a reconstuctist attitude to their benefit. Yet these
          Message 4 of 4 , May 11, 2003
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            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jim.welch@c...>
            wrote:
            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
            > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > >
            > > What will happen when a combatant tells a marshal he was
            > not injured
            > > beause he has a silk shirt and that the arrow head probably fell
            > > off?
            >
            > In SCA combat, the marshall would tell him he was dead
            > because he didn't have a silk shirt, he was wearing mail over a
            > padded gambeson. You can wear whatever armour suits your
            > persona but the SCA combat rules evens everything out and
            > everybody is considered to be wearing the same.
            >
            > From the Rules of the List, Section V. Acknowledgment of
            > Blows...
            >
            > 1. All "fully armored" fighters are presumed to be wearing a
            > hauberk over a padded gambeson with boiled leather arm and
            > leg defenses and an open-faced iron helm with a nasal.
            >
            > James Wolfden

            Yes, of course -- and in playing the SCA game this is fine. But
            those who attack CA want to force a 'reconstuctist' attitude to
            their benefit. Yet these stick fighters follow rules of combat that
            are not period consistent -- we select Princes and Kings based on
            combat rules that would not have survived in real combat. Ever hear
            of 'step though' or 'shield charge'? Not allowed, but if a 'heavy'
            ever attacks me after 'light' surrended, he will know what they are -
            - and may not sire children thereafter. I once had a man pull a gun
            on me in one of my businesses - mistake - I took him to the hospital
            with a broken arm and knee cap -- then called the police, for which
            I got cited for 'improper response'. The victim still writes to me.

            and I am a gentle person, not very well trained, but also a disabled
            Viet Nam vet. My staggering 250 lbs can do some damage in a full
            charge and I wouldn't hesitate, unlike someone who has never...

            The point is that while playing this game one could still get hurt,
            and I will never fight heavy. But once I have signed that insurance
            release form I question the ability of the group to control
            (politics)activities for 'my protection' -- we already have one
            silly governement -- don't need another -- but if you must
            legislate, do it for consistent and period reasons, not caprice.
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