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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: First Results from Mary Rose war arrow re-creation

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  • Carl West
    ... Footed shafts are generally (I m unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it s all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with
    Message 1 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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      jameswolfden wrote:
      >
      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
      > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
      > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
      > > wrote:
      > >
      > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
      > > arrows?
      >...
      > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.

      Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different from 'footed' I think.

      > ...However,
      > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
      > period covered by the SCA.

      Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.


      > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
      > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when the
      > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.

      Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were shooting them loose-headed.

      Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed heads.

      - Fritz
      --
      Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

      I have no superfluous leisure; my stay must be stolen out
      of other affairs; but I will attend you awhile.
      - Isabella, Measure for Measure, Act 3 Scene 1
      -
    • Guy Taylor
      ... However, ... Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up the
      Message 2 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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        > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
        However,
        > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
        > period covered by the SCA. I understand that it was popular during
        > the Victorian era on a mainly aesthetic basis.

        Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense
        wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up
        the shaft. This stronger and denser wood also makes the arrow
        stronger where it is weakest, right behind the tip.
        These days some people find a footed arrow advantagous because their
        draw is too long for the length of the mass produced shaft; footing
        will add a few inches to the length.

        Guy
      • Carolus Eulenhorst
        A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make for a tight fit. A
        Message 3 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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          A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin
          layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make
          for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
          easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause the
          victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the action
          with an otherwise non-fatal wound.

          In service to the dream
          Carolus von Eulenhorst
          eulenhorst@...

          On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@...> writes:
          > jameswolfden wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
          > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
          > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
          > <Lu-shan@f...>
          > > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
          > > > arrows?
          > >...
          > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
          >
          > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a
          > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking
          > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different
          > from 'footed' I think.
          >
          > > ...However,
          > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
          > the
          > > period covered by the SCA.
          >
          > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
          > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
          >
          >
          > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
          > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when
          > the
          > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
          >
          > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
          > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
          > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
          > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of
          > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in
          > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were
          > shooting them loose-headed.
          >
          > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was
          > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
          > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out
          > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They
          > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story
          > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed
          > heads.
          >
          > - Fritz
          > --
          > Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

          ________________________________________________________________
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        • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
          Greetings, Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today as
          Message 4 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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            Greetings,
            Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin
            such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today
            as ferrule-tite. There is some residual residue that's been found on the
            heads of period arrows.
            I use and love footed shafts. I've even made a few of them. They
            ARE good for putting more weight towards the front of the arrow and they
            make hunting arrows hit and penetrate even better. I hesitate to use
            them in SCA shooting because of the mass of arrows we shoot, it's
            heartbreaking enough to see my plain shafts get shattered.
            I am not personally aware of any "take down" arrows that existed
            in medieval Europe and I couldn't find anything about such a thing after
            a quick search through my books. I'd be interested to see anything about
            it if anyone finds such a thing. I know that it certainly did exist in
            Native American cultures.
            -Geoffrei


            http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
          • Kinjal of Moravia
            ... Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this, at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much for all the
            Message 5 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
              Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
              at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
              for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
              that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
              Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
              away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
              nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
              Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?




              <eulenhorst@j...> wrote:
              > A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a
              thin
              > layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will
              make
              > for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
              > easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause
              the
              > victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the
              action
              > with an otherwise non-fatal wound.
              >
              > In service to the dream
              > Carolus von Eulenhorst
              > eulenhorst@j...
              >
              > On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@a...> writes:
              > > jameswolfden wrote:
              > > >
              > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
              > > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
              > > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
              > > <Lu-shan@f...>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
              > > > > arrows?
              > > >...
              > > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
              > >
              > > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to
              this) a
              > > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was
              asking
              > > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather
              different
              > > from 'footed' I think.
              > >
              > > > ...However,
              > > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
              > > the
              > > > period covered by the SCA.
              > >
              > > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
              > > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
              > >
              > >
              > > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
              > > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that
              when
              > > the
              > > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
              > >
              > > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
              > > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
              > > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
              > > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many
              of
              > > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head
              in
              > > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they
              were
              > > shooting them loose-headed.
              > >
              > > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings
              was
              > > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
              > > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran
              out
              > > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more.
              They
              > > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This
              story
              > > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly
              affixed
              > > heads.
              > >
              > > - Fritz
              > > --
              > > Carl West eisen@a... http://eisen.home.attbi.com
              >
              > ________________________________________________________________
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            • Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth
              ... The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8 inch at the nock end. Robin Kyrke
              Message 6 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                >Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with the 1/2"
                >36% down the shaft?
                >
                >James Cunningham


                The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8
                inch at the nock end.

                Robin Kyrke
              • Carolus Eulenhorst
                Actually, the governing documents state Pre- 17th Century Western Culture . Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by convention because of their
                Message 7 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                  Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                  Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                  convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                  enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                  compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                  couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                  predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                  Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                  settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                  London for a season so they would be possible as well.

                  In service to the dream
                  Carolus von Eulenhorst
                  eulenhorst@...

                  On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                  <gusarimagic@...> writes:
                  > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                  > Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                  >
                  > at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                  >
                  > for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                  > that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                  > Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                  >
                  > away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                  > nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                  >
                  > Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?

                  ________________________________________________________________
                  The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
                  Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
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                • jameswolfden
                  ... No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of course, tanged
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                    wrote:
                    > > points usable in both
                    > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                    > > James Wolfden
                    > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                    > Ancel


                    No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket
                    where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of
                    course, tanged points too. Does anyone out there have a chronology of
                    arrowheads? Sockets seem to be late middle ages with tangs earlier.
                    When does the first bodkin appear? 1200?

                    For some examples of different types of heads, you could visit the
                    Hector Cole website at:

                    http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/

                    James Wolfden
                  • Kinjal of Moravia
                    ... and don t pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery- scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jim.welch@c...>
                      wrote:
                      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > points usable in both
                      > > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                      > > > James Wolfden
                      > > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                      > > Ancel
                      >
                      >
                      > > http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/
                      >
                      > James Wolfden

                      and don't pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery-
                      scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html

                      for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                      tangs, others not. I have not seen any evidence that any are
                      pinned, but have only purchased a couple for show.

                      Kinjal
                    • Godwin fitzGilbert
                      ... wrote: -snip- ... I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                        wrote:
                        -snip-
                        >
                        > Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary Rose
                        > arrows?
                        >
                        > Lu-shan
                        >
                        I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My
                        new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day in
                        Portsmouth is on the agenda.

                        Godwin
                      • James McArthur
                        You re probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580 s settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607. William MacArthur
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 10, 2003
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                          You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607.

                          William MacArthur

                          --- Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                          >Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                          >Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                          >convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                          >enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                          >compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                          >couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                          >predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                          >Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                          >settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                          >London for a season so they would be possible as well.
                          >
                          >In service to the dream
                          >Carolus von Eulenhorst
                          >eulenhorst@...
                          >
                          >On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                          ><gusarimagic@...> writes:
                          >> --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                          >> Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                          >>
                          >> at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                          >>
                          >> for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                          >> that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                          >> Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                          >>
                          >> away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                          >> nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                          >>
                          >> Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?
                          >
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                        • Carolus Eulenhorst
                          You re right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to. Blocked on Roanoke settlement. In service to the dream Carolus von Eulenhorst
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 11, 2003
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                            You're right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to.
                            Blocked on Roanoke settlement.

                            In service to the dream
                            Carolus von Eulenhorst
                            eulenhorst@...

                            On Sat, 10 May 2003 17:02:58 -0700 (PDT) James McArthur
                            <capnwilliam@...> writes:
                            > You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's
                            > settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period
                            > (1607.
                            >
                            > William MacArthur

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