Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: First Results from Mary Rose war arrow re-creation

Expand Messages
  • Carolus Eulenhorst
    I have not seen reference to the type of arrow you are referring to in use in Europe during our primary time of interest. Generally, arrows used in war are
    Message 1 of 25 , May 7 7:12 PM
      I have not seen reference to the type of arrow you are referring to in
      use in Europe during our primary time of interest. Generally, arrows
      used in war are one piece as the removable portion was too fragile to
      withstand the rigors of hitting any form of armor.

      Chested arrows taper towards both the tip and the nock, keeping their
      spine and strength while losing weight.

      In service to the dream
      Carolus von Eulenhorst
      eulenhorst@...

      On Wed, 07 May 2003 22:21:30 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
      <gusarimagic@...> writes:
      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
      > wrote:
      >
      > Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
      > perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
      >
      > arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and many
      >
      > replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange
      > that
      > European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
      > approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
      > taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
      > meaning here?
      >
      > Kinjal

      ________________________________________________________________
      The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
      Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
      Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
    • Carl West
      ... Footed shafts are generally (I m unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it s all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with
      Message 2 of 25 , May 7 9:41 PM
        jameswolfden wrote:
        >
        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
        > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
        > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
        > > wrote:
        > >
        > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
        > > arrows?
        >...
        > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.

        Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different from 'footed' I think.

        > ...However,
        > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
        > period covered by the SCA.

        Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.


        > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
        > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when the
        > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.

        Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were shooting them loose-headed.

        Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed heads.

        - Fritz
        --
        Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

        I have no superfluous leisure; my stay must be stolen out
        of other affairs; but I will attend you awhile.
        - Isabella, Measure for Measure, Act 3 Scene 1
        -
      • Guy Taylor
        ... However, ... Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up the
        Message 3 of 25 , May 7 9:51 PM
          > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
          However,
          > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
          > period covered by the SCA. I understand that it was popular during
          > the Victorian era on a mainly aesthetic basis.

          Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense
          wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up
          the shaft. This stronger and denser wood also makes the arrow
          stronger where it is weakest, right behind the tip.
          These days some people find a footed arrow advantagous because their
          draw is too long for the length of the mass produced shaft; footing
          will add a few inches to the length.

          Guy
        • Carolus Eulenhorst
          A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make for a tight fit. A
          Message 4 of 25 , May 7 10:36 PM
            A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin
            layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make
            for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
            easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause the
            victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the action
            with an otherwise non-fatal wound.

            In service to the dream
            Carolus von Eulenhorst
            eulenhorst@...

            On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@...> writes:
            > jameswolfden wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
            > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
            > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
            > <Lu-shan@f...>
            > > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
            > > > arrows?
            > >...
            > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
            >
            > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a
            > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking
            > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different
            > from 'footed' I think.
            >
            > > ...However,
            > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
            > the
            > > period covered by the SCA.
            >
            > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
            > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
            >
            >
            > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
            > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when
            > the
            > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
            >
            > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
            > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
            > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
            > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of
            > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in
            > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were
            > shooting them loose-headed.
            >
            > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was
            > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
            > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out
            > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They
            > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story
            > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed
            > heads.
            >
            > - Fritz
            > --
            > Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

            ________________________________________________________________
            The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
            Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
            Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
          • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
            Greetings, Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today as
            Message 5 of 25 , May 7 10:49 PM
              Greetings,
              Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin
              such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today
              as ferrule-tite. There is some residual residue that's been found on the
              heads of period arrows.
              I use and love footed shafts. I've even made a few of them. They
              ARE good for putting more weight towards the front of the arrow and they
              make hunting arrows hit and penetrate even better. I hesitate to use
              them in SCA shooting because of the mass of arrows we shoot, it's
              heartbreaking enough to see my plain shafts get shattered.
              I am not personally aware of any "take down" arrows that existed
              in medieval Europe and I couldn't find anything about such a thing after
              a quick search through my books. I'd be interested to see anything about
              it if anyone finds such a thing. I know that it certainly did exist in
              Native American cultures.
              -Geoffrei


              http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
            • Kinjal of Moravia
              ... Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this, at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much for all the
              Message 6 of 25 , May 7 11:01 PM
                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?




                <eulenhorst@j...> wrote:
                > A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a
                thin
                > layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will
                make
                > for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
                > easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause
                the
                > victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the
                action
                > with an otherwise non-fatal wound.
                >
                > In service to the dream
                > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                > eulenhorst@j...
                >
                > On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@a...> writes:
                > > jameswolfden wrote:
                > > >
                > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                > > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                > > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
                > > <Lu-shan@f...>
                > > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
                > > > > arrows?
                > > >...
                > > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                > >
                > > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to
                this) a
                > > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was
                asking
                > > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather
                different
                > > from 'footed' I think.
                > >
                > > > ...However,
                > > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
                > > the
                > > > period covered by the SCA.
                > >
                > > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
                > > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
                > >
                > >
                > > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                > > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that
                when
                > > the
                > > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
                > >
                > > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
                > > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
                > > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
                > > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many
                of
                > > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head
                in
                > > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they
                were
                > > shooting them loose-headed.
                > >
                > > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings
                was
                > > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
                > > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran
                out
                > > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more.
                They
                > > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This
                story
                > > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly
                affixed
                > > heads.
                > >
                > > - Fritz
                > > --
                > > Carl West eisen@a... http://eisen.home.attbi.com
                >
                > ________________________________________________________________
                > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
                > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
                > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
              • Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth
                ... The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8 inch at the nock end. Robin Kyrke
                Message 7 of 25 , May 8 1:09 AM
                  >Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with the 1/2"
                  >36% down the shaft?
                  >
                  >James Cunningham


                  The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8
                  inch at the nock end.

                  Robin Kyrke
                • Carolus Eulenhorst
                  Actually, the governing documents state Pre- 17th Century Western Culture . Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by convention because of their
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 8 1:18 AM
                    Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                    Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                    convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                    enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                    compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                    couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                    predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                    Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                    settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                    London for a season so they would be possible as well.

                    In service to the dream
                    Carolus von Eulenhorst
                    eulenhorst@...

                    On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                    <gusarimagic@...> writes:
                    > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                    > Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                    >
                    > at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                    >
                    > for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                    > that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                    > Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                    >
                    > away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                    > nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                    >
                    > Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?

                    ________________________________________________________________
                    The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
                    Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
                    Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
                  • jameswolfden
                    ... No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of course, tanged
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 8 10:54 AM
                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                      wrote:
                      > > points usable in both
                      > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                      > > James Wolfden
                      > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                      > Ancel


                      No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket
                      where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of
                      course, tanged points too. Does anyone out there have a chronology of
                      arrowheads? Sockets seem to be late middle ages with tangs earlier.
                      When does the first bodkin appear? 1200?

                      For some examples of different types of heads, you could visit the
                      Hector Cole website at:

                      http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/

                      James Wolfden
                    • Kinjal of Moravia
                      ... and don t pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery- scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 8 4:37 PM
                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jim.welch@c...>
                        wrote:
                        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > > points usable in both
                        > > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                        > > > James Wolfden
                        > > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                        > > Ancel
                        >
                        >
                        > > http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/
                        >
                        > James Wolfden

                        and don't pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery-
                        scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html

                        for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                        tangs, others not. I have not seen any evidence that any are
                        pinned, but have only purchased a couple for show.

                        Kinjal
                      • Godwin fitzGilbert
                        ... wrote: -snip- ... I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 8 7:50 PM
                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                          wrote:
                          -snip-
                          >
                          > Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary Rose
                          > arrows?
                          >
                          > Lu-shan
                          >
                          I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My
                          new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day in
                          Portsmouth is on the agenda.

                          Godwin
                        • James McArthur
                          You re probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580 s settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607. William MacArthur
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 10 5:02 PM
                            You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607.

                            William MacArthur

                            --- Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                            >Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                            >Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                            >convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                            >enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                            >compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                            >couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                            >predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                            >Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                            >settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                            >London for a season so they would be possible as well.
                            >
                            >In service to the dream
                            >Carolus von Eulenhorst
                            >eulenhorst@...
                            >
                            >On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                            ><gusarimagic@...> writes:
                            >> --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                            >> Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                            >>
                            >> at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                            >>
                            >> for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                            >> that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                            >> Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                            >>
                            >> away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                            >> nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                            >>
                            >> Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?
                            >
                            >________________________________________________________________
                            >The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
                            >Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
                            >Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
                            >
                            >---8<---------------------------------------------
                            >Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2002 by Medieval Mart
                            >Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                            >
                            >[Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                            >
                            >
                            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                            _____________________________________________________________
                            No Quarter Given's
                            PYRACY PUB
                            http://www.pyracy.com

                            _____________________________________________________________
                            Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@... w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag
                          • Carolus Eulenhorst
                            You re right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to. Blocked on Roanoke settlement. In service to the dream Carolus von Eulenhorst
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 11 10:59 PM
                              You're right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to.
                              Blocked on Roanoke settlement.

                              In service to the dream
                              Carolus von Eulenhorst
                              eulenhorst@...

                              On Sat, 10 May 2003 17:02:58 -0700 (PDT) James McArthur
                              <capnwilliam@...> writes:
                              > You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's
                              > settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period
                              > (1607.
                              >
                              > William MacArthur

                              ________________________________________________________________
                              The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
                              Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
                              Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.