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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: First Results from Mary Rose war arrow re-creation

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  • Karl W. Evoy
    ... By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade? Ancel
    Message 1 of 25 , May 5, 2003
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      > points usable in both
      > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
      > James Wolfden
      By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
      Ancel
    • Kinjal of Moravia
      ... wrote: Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented arrows?
      Message 2 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
        wrote:

        Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
        perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
        arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and many
        replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange that
        European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
        approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
        taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
        meaning here?

        Kinjal

        > You know, I also thought it was strange when I read that they were
        > straight tapered from the pile, thinking that they were more
        likely
        > barreled or chested shafts. Your question prompted me to look
        around
        > some more, and unfortunately the official Mary Rose site makes no
        > mention of it, but others who have viewed the arrows called them
        > chested, and described the specific double taper starting about
        1/3
        > down the shaft.
        >
        > Probably they were chested, then, which would not reduce the spine
        > over a straight shaft. I wonder if this account I read contained
        a
        > mistake. Clearly though, most ofthe arrows were tapered in some
        > fashion.
        >
        > http://www.labelle.org/ArGear_Arrow.html
        >
        > Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary
        Rose
        > arrows?
        >
        > Lu-shan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Pratt, Jr."
        > <cunning@f...> wrote:
        > > Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows
        with
        > the 1/2"
        > > 36% down the shaft?
        > >
        > > James Cunningham
        > > > Hi Michael,
        > > >
        > > > Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the
        > Mary
        > > > Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably
        give
        > them
        > > > less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly
        bows
        > and
        > > > the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?
        > > >
        > > > Cheers,
        > > > Sun Lu-shan
      • jameswolfden
        ... many ... that ... It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts. However, I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
        Message 3 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
          <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
          > wrote:
          >
          > Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
          > perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
          > arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and
          many
          > replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange
          that
          > European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
          > approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
          > taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
          > meaning here?
          >
          > Kinjal
          >

          It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts. However,
          I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
          period covered by the SCA. I understand that it was popular during
          the Victorian era on a mainly aesthetic basis.

          For English Archers during the 100 Year War, arrows would be mass
          manufactured. It is interesting to note that points usable in both
          war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned whereas points
          used only in war (like a bodkin) were only socketed. Speculation:
          Hunting arrows can be retrieved with prey. War arrows need only to be
          one time delivery. I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
          were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when the
          arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.

          James Wolfden
        • Carolus Eulenhorst
          I have not seen reference to the type of arrow you are referring to in use in Europe during our primary time of interest. Generally, arrows used in war are
          Message 4 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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            I have not seen reference to the type of arrow you are referring to in
            use in Europe during our primary time of interest. Generally, arrows
            used in war are one piece as the removable portion was too fragile to
            withstand the rigors of hitting any form of armor.

            Chested arrows taper towards both the tip and the nock, keeping their
            spine and strength while losing weight.

            In service to the dream
            Carolus von Eulenhorst
            eulenhorst@...

            On Wed, 07 May 2003 22:21:30 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
            <gusarimagic@...> writes:
            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
            > perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
            >
            > arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and many
            >
            > replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange
            > that
            > European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
            > approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
            > taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
            > meaning here?
            >
            > Kinjal

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          • Carl West
            ... Footed shafts are generally (I m unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it s all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with
            Message 5 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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              jameswolfden wrote:
              >
              > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
              > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
              > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
              > > arrows?
              >...
              > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.

              Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different from 'footed' I think.

              > ...However,
              > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
              > period covered by the SCA.

              Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.


              > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
              > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when the
              > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.

              Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were shooting them loose-headed.

              Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed heads.

              - Fritz
              --
              Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

              I have no superfluous leisure; my stay must be stolen out
              of other affairs; but I will attend you awhile.
              - Isabella, Measure for Measure, Act 3 Scene 1
              -
            • Guy Taylor
              ... However, ... Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up the
              Message 6 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                However,
                > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
                > period covered by the SCA. I understand that it was popular during
                > the Victorian era on a mainly aesthetic basis.

                Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense
                wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up
                the shaft. This stronger and denser wood also makes the arrow
                stronger where it is weakest, right behind the tip.
                These days some people find a footed arrow advantagous because their
                draw is too long for the length of the mass produced shaft; footing
                will add a few inches to the length.

                Guy
              • Carolus Eulenhorst
                A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make for a tight fit. A
                Message 7 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                  A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin
                  layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make
                  for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
                  easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause the
                  victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the action
                  with an otherwise non-fatal wound.

                  In service to the dream
                  Carolus von Eulenhorst
                  eulenhorst@...

                  On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@...> writes:
                  > jameswolfden wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                  > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                  > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
                  > <Lu-shan@f...>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
                  > > > arrows?
                  > >...
                  > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                  >
                  > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a
                  > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking
                  > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different
                  > from 'footed' I think.
                  >
                  > > ...However,
                  > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
                  > the
                  > > period covered by the SCA.
                  >
                  > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
                  > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
                  >
                  >
                  > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                  > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when
                  > the
                  > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
                  >
                  > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
                  > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
                  > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
                  > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of
                  > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in
                  > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were
                  > shooting them loose-headed.
                  >
                  > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was
                  > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
                  > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out
                  > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They
                  > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story
                  > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed
                  > heads.
                  >
                  > - Fritz
                  > --
                  > Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

                  ________________________________________________________________
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                • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                  Greetings, Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today as
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                    Greetings,
                    Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin
                    such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today
                    as ferrule-tite. There is some residual residue that's been found on the
                    heads of period arrows.
                    I use and love footed shafts. I've even made a few of them. They
                    ARE good for putting more weight towards the front of the arrow and they
                    make hunting arrows hit and penetrate even better. I hesitate to use
                    them in SCA shooting because of the mass of arrows we shoot, it's
                    heartbreaking enough to see my plain shafts get shattered.
                    I am not personally aware of any "take down" arrows that existed
                    in medieval Europe and I couldn't find anything about such a thing after
                    a quick search through my books. I'd be interested to see anything about
                    it if anyone finds such a thing. I know that it certainly did exist in
                    Native American cultures.
                    -Geoffrei


                    http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                  • Kinjal of Moravia
                    ... Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this, at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much for all the
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                      Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                      at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                      for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                      that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                      Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                      away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                      nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                      Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?




                      <eulenhorst@j...> wrote:
                      > A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a
                      thin
                      > layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will
                      make
                      > for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
                      > easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause
                      the
                      > victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the
                      action
                      > with an otherwise non-fatal wound.
                      >
                      > In service to the dream
                      > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                      > eulenhorst@j...
                      >
                      > On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@a...> writes:
                      > > jameswolfden wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                      > > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                      > > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
                      > > <Lu-shan@f...>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
                      > > > > arrows?
                      > > >...
                      > > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                      > >
                      > > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to
                      this) a
                      > > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was
                      asking
                      > > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather
                      different
                      > > from 'footed' I think.
                      > >
                      > > > ...However,
                      > > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
                      > > the
                      > > > period covered by the SCA.
                      > >
                      > > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
                      > > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                      > > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that
                      when
                      > > the
                      > > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
                      > >
                      > > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
                      > > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
                      > > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
                      > > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many
                      of
                      > > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head
                      in
                      > > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they
                      were
                      > > shooting them loose-headed.
                      > >
                      > > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings
                      was
                      > > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
                      > > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran
                      out
                      > > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more.
                      They
                      > > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This
                      story
                      > > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly
                      affixed
                      > > heads.
                      > >
                      > > - Fritz
                      > > --
                      > > Carl West eisen@a... http://eisen.home.attbi.com
                      >
                      > ________________________________________________________________
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                    • Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth
                      ... The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8 inch at the nock end. Robin Kyrke
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                        >Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with the 1/2"
                        >36% down the shaft?
                        >
                        >James Cunningham


                        The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8
                        inch at the nock end.

                        Robin Kyrke
                      • Carolus Eulenhorst
                        Actually, the governing documents state Pre- 17th Century Western Culture . Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by convention because of their
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                          Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                          Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                          convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                          enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                          compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                          couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                          predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                          Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                          settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                          London for a season so they would be possible as well.

                          In service to the dream
                          Carolus von Eulenhorst
                          eulenhorst@...

                          On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                          <gusarimagic@...> writes:
                          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                          > Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                          >
                          > at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                          >
                          > for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                          > that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                          > Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                          >
                          > away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                          > nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                          >
                          > Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?

                          ________________________________________________________________
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                        • jameswolfden
                          ... No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of course, tanged
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                            wrote:
                            > > points usable in both
                            > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                            > > James Wolfden
                            > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                            > Ancel


                            No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket
                            where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of
                            course, tanged points too. Does anyone out there have a chronology of
                            arrowheads? Sockets seem to be late middle ages with tangs earlier.
                            When does the first bodkin appear? 1200?

                            For some examples of different types of heads, you could visit the
                            Hector Cole website at:

                            http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/

                            James Wolfden
                          • Kinjal of Moravia
                            ... and don t pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery- scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jim.welch@c...>
                              wrote:
                              > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > > points usable in both
                              > > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                              > > > James Wolfden
                              > > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                              > > Ancel
                              >
                              >
                              > > http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/
                              >
                              > James Wolfden

                              and don't pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery-
                              scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html

                              for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                              tangs, others not. I have not seen any evidence that any are
                              pinned, but have only purchased a couple for show.

                              Kinjal
                            • Godwin fitzGilbert
                              ... wrote: -snip- ... I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                                wrote:
                                -snip-
                                >
                                > Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary Rose
                                > arrows?
                                >
                                > Lu-shan
                                >
                                I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My
                                new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day in
                                Portsmouth is on the agenda.

                                Godwin
                              • James McArthur
                                You re probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580 s settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607. William MacArthur
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 10, 2003
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                                  You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607.

                                  William MacArthur

                                  --- Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                                  >Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                                  >Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                                  >convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                                  >enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                                  >compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                                  >couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                                  >predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                                  >Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                                  >settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                                  >London for a season so they would be possible as well.
                                  >
                                  >In service to the dream
                                  >Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                  >eulenhorst@...
                                  >
                                  >On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                                  ><gusarimagic@...> writes:
                                  >> --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                                  >> Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                                  >>
                                  >> at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                                  >>
                                  >> for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                                  >> that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                                  >> Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                                  >>
                                  >> away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                                  >> nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                                  >>
                                  >> Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?
                                  >
                                  >________________________________________________________________
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                                • Carolus Eulenhorst
                                  You re right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to. Blocked on Roanoke settlement. In service to the dream Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 11, 2003
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                                    You're right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to.
                                    Blocked on Roanoke settlement.

                                    In service to the dream
                                    Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                    eulenhorst@...

                                    On Sat, 10 May 2003 17:02:58 -0700 (PDT) James McArthur
                                    <capnwilliam@...> writes:
                                    > You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's
                                    > settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period
                                    > (1607.
                                    >
                                    > William MacArthur

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