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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: First Results from Mary Rose war arrow re-creation

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  • Karl W. Evoy
    ... By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade? Ancel
    Message 1 of 25 , May 5, 2003
      > points usable in both
      > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
      > James Wolfden
      By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
      Ancel
    • Sun Lu-shan
      Hi Michael, Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary Rose shafts tapered from 1/2 to 3/8 , which would probably give them less
      Message 2 of 25 , May 6, 2003
        Hi Michael,

        Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary
        Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably give them
        less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly bows and
        the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?

        Cheers,
        Sun Lu-shan


        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Mike O'Toole <mike.otoole@s...>
        wrote:
        > Hi all,
        >
        > Just wanted to update you on my first couple of arrows Mary Rose
        war
        > arrows I am re-creating.
        >
        > I used poplar (species unknown instead of the black poplar found on
        the
        > MR) from the lumber store and cut it with the band saw into
        > 1/2"x1/2"x32" pieces. I then used a small hand plane and shoot
        block to
        > round the shafts until they were 1/2" in diameter, then burnished
        with a
        > piece of brass rod.
        >
        > I had them on the spine tester the other night at archery practice
        and
        > they came out at 149 and 162 lb spine. Which is not too far from
        the
        > upper end of speculation for the war bow poundage.
        >
      • James Brummet
        Okay I have to ask after all the emails. What is a Mary Rose shaft? ... Hi Michael, Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary Rose
        Message 3 of 25 , May 6, 2003
          Okay I have to ask after all the emails. What is a Mary Rose shaft?

          >>> Lu-shan@... 05/06/03 01:20PM >>>
          Hi Michael,

          Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary
          Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably give them
          less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly bows and
          the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?

          Cheers,
          Sun Lu-shan


          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Mike O'Toole <mike.otoole@s...>
          wrote:
          > Hi all,
          >
          > Just wanted to update you on my first couple of arrows Mary Rose
          war
          > arrows I am re-creating.
          >
          > I used poplar (species unknown instead of the black poplar found on
          the
          > MR) from the lumber store and cut it with the band saw into
          > 1/2"x1/2"x32" pieces. I then used a small hand plane and shoot
          block to
          > round the shafts until they were 1/2" in diameter, then burnished
          with a
          > piece of brass rod.
          >
          > I had them on the spine tester the other night at archery practice
          and
          > they came out at 149 and 162 lb spine. Which is not too far from
          the
          > upper end of speculation for the war bow poundage.
          >


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        • jameswolfden
          ... The Mary Rose was an late period English warship that sank. It had a large assortment of armaments on board including english longbows and arrow shafts
          Message 4 of 25 , May 6, 2003
            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James Brummet" <brummejr@f...>
            wrote:
            > Okay I have to ask after all the emails. What is a Mary Rose shaft?
            >
            The Mary Rose was an late period English warship that sank. It had a
            large assortment of armaments on board including english longbows and
            arrow shafts that have been preserved over time. A sword may be
            passed from generation to generation but an old longbow and arrows
            are just kindling or will be left to rot. So this becomes a godsend
            to most of us archer types that are trying to recreate period bows
            and arrows.


            Check out www.maryrose.org for more on the Mary Rose.

            James Wolfden
            Lions Gate
          • Kinjal of Moravia
            ... getting a period correct bow is not a problem from the right merchant, and need not be expensive either. My profered bow is not exectly period, based on a
            Message 5 of 25 , May 6, 2003
              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jim.welch@c...>
              getting a period correct bow is not a problem from the right
              merchant, and need not be expensive either. My profered bow is not
              exectly period, based on a 600BC Assyrian design. However,it is
              close to a Sythian style into which it evolved. 50# with a beautiful
              pull, and it looks so nice I get constant comments in my Scythian
              style quiver. I use Mongolian release because of sever arthritis and
              can fire 7 arrows in 30 seconds. Cost = $270

              Kinjal

              wrote:
              > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James Brummet"
              <brummejr@f...>
              > wrote:
              > > Okay I have to ask after all the emails. What is a Mary Rose
              shaft?
              > >
              > The Mary Rose was an late period English warship that sank. It had
              a
              > large assortment of armaments on board including english longbows
              and
              > arrow shafts that have been preserved over time. A sword may be
              > passed from generation to generation but an old longbow and arrows
              > are just kindling or will be left to rot. So this becomes a
              godsend
              > to most of us archer types that are trying to recreate period bows
              > and arrows.
              >
              >
              > Check out www.maryrose.org for more on the Mary Rose.
              >
              > James Wolfden
              > Lions Gate
            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
              Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with the 1/2 36% down the shaft? James Cunningham
              Message 6 of 25 , May 6, 2003
                Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with the 1/2"
                36% down the shaft?

                James Cunningham
                > Hi Michael,
                >
                > Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary
                > Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably give them
                > less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly bows and
                > the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Sun Lu-shan
              • Sun Lu-shan
                You know, I also thought it was strange when I read that they were straight tapered from the pile, thinking that they were more likely barreled or chested
                Message 7 of 25 , May 7, 2003
                  You know, I also thought it was strange when I read that they were
                  straight tapered from the pile, thinking that they were more likely
                  barreled or chested shafts. Your question prompted me to look around
                  some more, and unfortunately the official Mary Rose site makes no
                  mention of it, but others who have viewed the arrows called them
                  chested, and described the specific double taper starting about 1/3
                  down the shaft.

                  Probably they were chested, then, which would not reduce the spine
                  over a straight shaft. I wonder if this account I read contained a
                  mistake. Clearly though, most ofthe arrows were tapered in some
                  fashion.

                  http://www.labelle.org/ArGear_Arrow.html

                  Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary Rose
                  arrows?

                  Lu-shan




                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Pratt, Jr."
                  <cunning@f...> wrote:
                  > Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with
                  the 1/2"
                  > 36% down the shaft?
                  >
                  > James Cunningham
                  > > Hi Michael,
                  > >
                  > > Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the
                  Mary
                  > > Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably give
                  them
                  > > less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly bows
                  and
                  > > the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  > > Sun Lu-shan
                • Kinjal of Moravia
                  ... wrote: Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented arrows?
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 7, 2003
                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                    wrote:

                    Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
                    perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
                    arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and many
                    replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange that
                    European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
                    approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
                    taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
                    meaning here?

                    Kinjal

                    > You know, I also thought it was strange when I read that they were
                    > straight tapered from the pile, thinking that they were more
                    likely
                    > barreled or chested shafts. Your question prompted me to look
                    around
                    > some more, and unfortunately the official Mary Rose site makes no
                    > mention of it, but others who have viewed the arrows called them
                    > chested, and described the specific double taper starting about
                    1/3
                    > down the shaft.
                    >
                    > Probably they were chested, then, which would not reduce the spine
                    > over a straight shaft. I wonder if this account I read contained
                    a
                    > mistake. Clearly though, most ofthe arrows were tapered in some
                    > fashion.
                    >
                    > http://www.labelle.org/ArGear_Arrow.html
                    >
                    > Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary
                    Rose
                    > arrows?
                    >
                    > Lu-shan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Pratt, Jr."
                    > <cunning@f...> wrote:
                    > > Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows
                    with
                    > the 1/2"
                    > > 36% down the shaft?
                    > >
                    > > James Cunningham
                    > > > Hi Michael,
                    > > >
                    > > > Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the
                    > Mary
                    > > > Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably
                    give
                    > them
                    > > > less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly
                    bows
                    > and
                    > > > the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?
                    > > >
                    > > > Cheers,
                    > > > Sun Lu-shan
                  • jameswolfden
                    ... many ... that ... It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts. However, I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 7, 2003
                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                      <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
                      > perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
                      > arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and
                      many
                      > replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange
                      that
                      > European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
                      > approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
                      > taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
                      > meaning here?
                      >
                      > Kinjal
                      >

                      It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts. However,
                      I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
                      period covered by the SCA. I understand that it was popular during
                      the Victorian era on a mainly aesthetic basis.

                      For English Archers during the 100 Year War, arrows would be mass
                      manufactured. It is interesting to note that points usable in both
                      war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned whereas points
                      used only in war (like a bodkin) were only socketed. Speculation:
                      Hunting arrows can be retrieved with prey. War arrows need only to be
                      one time delivery. I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                      were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when the
                      arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.

                      James Wolfden
                    • Carolus Eulenhorst
                      I have not seen reference to the type of arrow you are referring to in use in Europe during our primary time of interest. Generally, arrows used in war are
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 7, 2003
                        I have not seen reference to the type of arrow you are referring to in
                        use in Europe during our primary time of interest. Generally, arrows
                        used in war are one piece as the removable portion was too fragile to
                        withstand the rigors of hitting any form of armor.

                        Chested arrows taper towards both the tip and the nock, keeping their
                        spine and strength while losing weight.

                        In service to the dream
                        Carolus von Eulenhorst
                        eulenhorst@...

                        On Wed, 07 May 2003 22:21:30 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                        <gusarimagic@...> writes:
                        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
                        > perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
                        >
                        > arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and many
                        >
                        > replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange
                        > that
                        > European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
                        > approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
                        > taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
                        > meaning here?
                        >
                        > Kinjal

                        ________________________________________________________________
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                      • Carl West
                        ... Footed shafts are generally (I m unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it s all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 7, 2003
                          jameswolfden wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                          > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                          > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
                          > > arrows?
                          >...
                          > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.

                          Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different from 'footed' I think.

                          > ...However,
                          > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
                          > period covered by the SCA.

                          Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.


                          > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                          > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when the
                          > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.

                          Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were shooting them loose-headed.

                          Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed heads.

                          - Fritz
                          --
                          Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

                          I have no superfluous leisure; my stay must be stolen out
                          of other affairs; but I will attend you awhile.
                          - Isabella, Measure for Measure, Act 3 Scene 1
                          -
                        • Guy Taylor
                          ... However, ... Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up the
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 7, 2003
                            > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                            However,
                            > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
                            > period covered by the SCA. I understand that it was popular during
                            > the Victorian era on a mainly aesthetic basis.

                            Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense
                            wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up
                            the shaft. This stronger and denser wood also makes the arrow
                            stronger where it is weakest, right behind the tip.
                            These days some people find a footed arrow advantagous because their
                            draw is too long for the length of the mass produced shaft; footing
                            will add a few inches to the length.

                            Guy
                          • Carolus Eulenhorst
                            A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make for a tight fit. A
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 7, 2003
                              A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin
                              layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make
                              for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
                              easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause the
                              victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the action
                              with an otherwise non-fatal wound.

                              In service to the dream
                              Carolus von Eulenhorst
                              eulenhorst@...

                              On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@...> writes:
                              > jameswolfden wrote:
                              > >
                              > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                              > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                              > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
                              > <Lu-shan@f...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
                              > > > arrows?
                              > >...
                              > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                              >
                              > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a
                              > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking
                              > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different
                              > from 'footed' I think.
                              >
                              > > ...However,
                              > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
                              > the
                              > > period covered by the SCA.
                              >
                              > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
                              > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
                              >
                              >
                              > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                              > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when
                              > the
                              > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
                              >
                              > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
                              > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
                              > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
                              > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of
                              > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in
                              > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were
                              > shooting them loose-headed.
                              >
                              > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was
                              > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
                              > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out
                              > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They
                              > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story
                              > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed
                              > heads.
                              >
                              > - Fritz
                              > --
                              > Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

                              ________________________________________________________________
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                            • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                              Greetings, Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today as
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 7, 2003
                                Greetings,
                                Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin
                                such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today
                                as ferrule-tite. There is some residual residue that's been found on the
                                heads of period arrows.
                                I use and love footed shafts. I've even made a few of them. They
                                ARE good for putting more weight towards the front of the arrow and they
                                make hunting arrows hit and penetrate even better. I hesitate to use
                                them in SCA shooting because of the mass of arrows we shoot, it's
                                heartbreaking enough to see my plain shafts get shattered.
                                I am not personally aware of any "take down" arrows that existed
                                in medieval Europe and I couldn't find anything about such a thing after
                                a quick search through my books. I'd be interested to see anything about
                                it if anyone finds such a thing. I know that it certainly did exist in
                                Native American cultures.
                                -Geoffrei


                                http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                              • Kinjal of Moravia
                                ... Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this, at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much for all the
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 7, 2003
                                  --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                                  Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                                  at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                                  for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                                  that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                                  Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                                  away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                                  nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                                  Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?




                                  <eulenhorst@j...> wrote:
                                  > A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a
                                  thin
                                  > layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will
                                  make
                                  > for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
                                  > easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause
                                  the
                                  > victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the
                                  action
                                  > with an otherwise non-fatal wound.
                                  >
                                  > In service to the dream
                                  > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                  > eulenhorst@j...
                                  >
                                  > On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@a...> writes:
                                  > > jameswolfden wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                                  > > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                                  > > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
                                  > > <Lu-shan@f...>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
                                  > > > > arrows?
                                  > > >...
                                  > > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                                  > >
                                  > > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to
                                  this) a
                                  > > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was
                                  asking
                                  > > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather
                                  different
                                  > > from 'footed' I think.
                                  > >
                                  > > > ...However,
                                  > > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
                                  > > the
                                  > > > period covered by the SCA.
                                  > >
                                  > > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
                                  > > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                                  > > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that
                                  when
                                  > > the
                                  > > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
                                  > >
                                  > > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
                                  > > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
                                  > > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
                                  > > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many
                                  of
                                  > > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head
                                  in
                                  > > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they
                                  were
                                  > > shooting them loose-headed.
                                  > >
                                  > > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings
                                  was
                                  > > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
                                  > > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran
                                  out
                                  > > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more.
                                  They
                                  > > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This
                                  story
                                  > > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly
                                  affixed
                                  > > heads.
                                  > >
                                  > > - Fritz
                                  > > --
                                  > > Carl West eisen@a... http://eisen.home.attbi.com
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________________________________________
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                                • Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth
                                  ... The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8 inch at the nock end. Robin Kyrke
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 8, 2003
                                    >Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with the 1/2"
                                    >36% down the shaft?
                                    >
                                    >James Cunningham


                                    The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8
                                    inch at the nock end.

                                    Robin Kyrke
                                  • Carolus Eulenhorst
                                    Actually, the governing documents state Pre- 17th Century Western Culture . Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by convention because of their
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 8, 2003
                                      Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                                      Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                                      convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                                      enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                                      compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                                      couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                                      predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                                      Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                                      settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                                      London for a season so they would be possible as well.

                                      In service to the dream
                                      Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                      eulenhorst@...

                                      On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                                      <gusarimagic@...> writes:
                                      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                                      > Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                                      >
                                      > at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                                      >
                                      > for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                                      > that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                                      > Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                                      >
                                      > away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                                      > nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                                      >
                                      > Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?

                                      ________________________________________________________________
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                                    • jameswolfden
                                      ... No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of course, tanged
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 8, 2003
                                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > > points usable in both
                                        > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                                        > > James Wolfden
                                        > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                                        > Ancel


                                        No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket
                                        where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of
                                        course, tanged points too. Does anyone out there have a chronology of
                                        arrowheads? Sockets seem to be late middle ages with tangs earlier.
                                        When does the first bodkin appear? 1200?

                                        For some examples of different types of heads, you could visit the
                                        Hector Cole website at:

                                        http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/

                                        James Wolfden
                                      • Kinjal of Moravia
                                        ... and don t pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery- scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                                        Message 19 of 25 , May 8, 2003
                                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jim.welch@c...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > > > points usable in both
                                          > > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                                          > > > James Wolfden
                                          > > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                                          > > Ancel
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/
                                          >
                                          > James Wolfden

                                          and don't pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery-
                                          scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html

                                          for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                                          tangs, others not. I have not seen any evidence that any are
                                          pinned, but have only purchased a couple for show.

                                          Kinjal
                                        • Godwin fitzGilbert
                                          ... wrote: -snip- ... I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day
                                          Message 20 of 25 , May 8, 2003
                                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                                            wrote:
                                            -snip-
                                            >
                                            > Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary Rose
                                            > arrows?
                                            >
                                            > Lu-shan
                                            >
                                            I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My
                                            new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day in
                                            Portsmouth is on the agenda.

                                            Godwin
                                          • James McArthur
                                            You re probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580 s settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607. William MacArthur
                                            Message 21 of 25 , May 10, 2003
                                              You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607.

                                              William MacArthur

                                              --- Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                                              >Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                                              >Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                                              >convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                                              >enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                                              >compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                                              >couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                                              >predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                                              >Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                                              >settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                                              >London for a season so they would be possible as well.
                                              >
                                              >In service to the dream
                                              >Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                              >eulenhorst@...
                                              >
                                              >On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                                              ><gusarimagic@...> writes:
                                              >> --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                                              >> Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                                              >>
                                              >> at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                                              >>
                                              >> for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                                              >> that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                                              >> Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                                              >>
                                              >> away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                                              >> nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                                              >>
                                              >> Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?
                                              >
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                                            • Carolus Eulenhorst
                                              You re right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to. Blocked on Roanoke settlement. In service to the dream Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                              Message 22 of 25 , May 11, 2003
                                                You're right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to.
                                                Blocked on Roanoke settlement.

                                                In service to the dream
                                                Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                                eulenhorst@...

                                                On Sat, 10 May 2003 17:02:58 -0700 (PDT) James McArthur
                                                <capnwilliam@...> writes:
                                                > You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's
                                                > settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period
                                                > (1607.
                                                >
                                                > William MacArthur

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